US Rating VS Rest of World

[NDH]

There is no financial remuneration for many of those sports in the US as well, and honestly, with the possible exception of bowling and very recently chess, the financial remuneration is higher for those sports in the UK. MY point, which I really messed up, is that those sports are largely outside the mainstream in the US, but they are available to you if you want to do them. At best, people do it to keep their passions afloat. But sports like rowing, in my experience, are far easier to access as amateurs and novices with less means in the US. In London, they are largely the preserve of clubs and are mainstream.

The issue with finding umpires is often overblown - I have not failed to find a scorekeeper or umpire for a match if I need one. The question is whether it adds value or not.

Finally, if you think those players got to the World Class level by playing in England, I have a nice piece of Burospinny to sell you for a 1 million quid. Those guys would be stuck at best in the top 300 if they didn't have regular access to higher level play in Europe at a younger age.

I think you are partly right.

However, it's difficult to know/prove 100% either way.

Our top guys achieved the majority of their success through the UK set up - Like with any sport, once they achieved a world class level, they looked for the best place to keep on improving (which, as you rightly pointed out, was Europe. I actually believe Drinkhall spent some time in China as well, but I may be mistaken).

Although, this is the same in any sport. If a young European wanted to achieve a world class level of Basketball.... They are not going to continue playing in their home country (even the bigger nations like Spain etc).

 

[pgpg]

...

I actually tried to play in a team league in the NY area. I put together a team of Philly area players and did the driving. In the end, the organizer drove me crazy enough to make me realize I couldn't keep my team in it as well as my sanity.
...

Would you mind sharing details? There is a push from USATT to create regional leagues, and I heard some rumblings we might get one locally, so want to know what to watch out for (or at least let Larry Hodges know, since he's the one in USATT trying to make leagues successful).

 

[NextLevel]

Would you mind sharing details? There is a push from USATT to create regional leagues, and I heard some rumblings we might get one locally, so want to know what to watch out for (or at least let Larry Hodges know, since he's the one in USATT trying to make leagues successful).

We can talk about it in person sometime. I would just say that having a good organizer who is willing to keep things fair even when trying to grow the league matters. Allowing people to register very late after first matches were played or skip matches slated at other venues was just poor form.

 

[Suga D]

...There is a push from USATT to create regional leagues, and I heard some rumblings we might get one locally, so want to know what to watch out for (or at least let Larry Hodges know, since he's the one in USATT trying to make leagues successful).

I hope you guys can find a way to make it work.

If you send a team to olympics or WTTTC it would be good for the players to know what it's like to be part of a team. Those moments when you share the joy as well as the pain are priceless. You grow together as a team. (I know this is mostly on amateur level or National Team Level, the pro club players are mostly after a good income) But it's actually undescribable and I only can highly recommend it.

Go ask your National coach Stefan. He'll tell you a word or two.

No matter how high the stakes might be and how big efforts it takes to get it done, i can tell you that it's gonna be totally worth it.

 

[passifid]

Its hard as TT is fairly big in the uk. i have a local club at my family home when back from uni in a village with a population of 1700, with2 leauge teams. in brighton i go to 3 clubs and there are 1000 ish leauge registered players in a 300,000 population city and a further 2000 leauge players within a 1hr drive. infact where i am i play in my local leauge and cycle to each game as its all so easy(but this isnt always this easy). and i estimate 50% of players do not play leauge at the clubs i go to. umpiring is an overblown issue as in my leauge we just have one of the players sitting out do it and take turns.

skill wise i cant comment as i am fairly new to the sport and have never played abroad but from international students from EU and asia i would say asia is generally better but only because the students i interacted with play TT casually with friends and UK i found play mostly football/frisbee here. a big issue we have is retention of young players in the university as after january exams attendance to casual sessions falls from 40-60 to 4-10 and gradually falling off until it becomes my private hall and sometimes 2 others.

 

[MDP]

Something interesting to know, is the amount of points everyone starts with and what the range of of the rating is.
For exemple, in Belgium, you start at +-450 points (but you can drop even lower). The pro players are around 2800.
When doing a quick search on the vttl-website, I found for exemple Paul Drinkhall has 2835 ELO points in the Belgian league. Jean Michel Saive had 2926 points in 2014. Cedric Nuytinck is at 2695 elo points.


Next to the ELO points, everyone gets a ranking (depending on the amount of points you have). Going from NG(no ranking) to E6 - E4 - E2 - E0 > D6 - ... >C .. > B... > A 26 ...
This makes it easier to guess someones playing level, but it can allso be misleading.




In Belgium there's allso a very large network of 'recreational' clubs and players. These clubs range from small clubs where hobbyists go and play while having a drink, to big and strong competitive clubs. Some clubs that play in the league, have a seperate recreational division, that plays on different days as the league players.
Depending on their system, these clubs organise internal competitions between their clubmembers and sometimes meet up with other clubs to play against eachother. They allso have seperate tournaments where league-players can't compete.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

For me, it is interesting to hear about different systems and how things work in other places. So, thanks for creating this thread.

I personally don't play tournaments because I work when they usually happen and to me, giving up several $100.00 of money that is needed to support my wife and child would be a mistake. My wife probably would not be as understanding of my hobby/addiction if it impacted my ability to pay the bills. LOL.

But, I also like doing training drills and game simulation drills more than matches. Probably 1/5 of my play time is match play. Maybe even less. I know: if I wanted to be a better player I would do more focused training and have match play closer to 50% of my training time because that is where I most need the work. But I don't really care what my level is. For someone over 50 with very little actual coaching I think I am fine. But I know I would be way better with more coaching. I wish I could afford the time (not just the cash).

All this being said, I think I am an odd sort who doesn't care about that stuff. I am process driven where most people are results driven.

And as I see it, regardless of rating or ranking and regardless of which system for rating or ranking, having a method for helping people know about where they stand is useful to the sport in general. More people in the USA participate in USATT sanctioned tournaments because they want to find out where they stand and because they want to achieve a certain level. And, regardless of which system, if that helps keep people focused and interested in learning and playing the sport, then it is a good thing.

The way league play sounds like it works in other countries sounds nice. It would be fun to participate in that. The idea of teamwork and being part of a team in a league also sounds like great and valuable fun.

It is pretty cool that people from Europe have access to this form of organized play.

But whatever form of rating you are used to, if you live in it and understand it, it gives you a basis for understanding where you are as a player.

If that gives people an added reason to want to play and progress, no matter which system, it is good for the sport. And these systems actually help people assess their progress and set achievable goals.

So my real goal it to become the first drill and training player to make it to the over 50 bracket in the Olympics for artistic table tennis. It's all about the cool around the net shots. Even if you can't win the point you still get credit for style. LOL.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[pgpg]

Let me turn the tables a bit and ask fellow forum members from Europe (and other team-oriented TT places) about some aspects of the league play:

1. How do you end up on a team?

2. Presumably team is from a certain club - who gets to decide how many teams this club will field in the league and in which division?

3. Do you have a say who you play with?

4. How do you move from one division to another? How about from one team to a different one?

5. Let's say you are the weakest player on a given team - what happens when team wants to 'upgrade', are you asked to drop out?

6. Let's assume you must have 3 players for a team match - I suspect there are more than 3 players on a team, to allow for real life commitments, injuries etc. Who decides who gets to play on a given day?

7. What if a certain player only shows up for 20% of matches. Do you invite them back next season?

I guess I'm somewhat curious whether you are also getting a bit of drama, politics, and other not so pleasant aspects when you are dealing with teams, as opposed to individual competition format.

 

[passifid]

Let me turn the tables a bit and ask fellow forum members from Europe (and other team-oriented TT places) about some aspects of the league play:

1. How do you end up on a team?

2. Presumably team is from a certain club - who gets to decide how many teams this club will field in the league and in which division?

3. Do you have a say who you play with?

4. How do you move from one division to another? How about from one team to a different one?

5. Let's say you are the weakest player on a given team - what happens when team wants to 'upgrade', are you asked to drop out?

6. Let's assume you must have 3 players for a team match - I suspect there are more than 3 players on a team, to allow for real life commitments, injuries etc. Who decides who gets to play on a given day?

7. What if a certain player only shows up for 20% of matches. Do you invite them back next season?

I guess I'm somewhat curious whether you are also getting a bit of drama, politics, and other not so pleasant aspects when you are dealing with teams, as opposed to individual competition format.

1.) i ended up on a team(and have been invited into more) by simply turning up to the social nights at the table tennis clubs run locally, they usually have a team or two and look to form more and invite you if you're of a decent standard.

2.) anyone can field a club, as long as you have a venue to play it only even has to be once a week in my league you could get you and two friends hiring a YMCA room once a week and form a team. Typically you always start at the bottom division and get promoted(yes this does mean some players are too good we have 2 100% win rate players in my league after around 30-40 games)

3.) Yes, its simply a few guys who get together and make a team of usually 3, as many clubs often have multiple teams you can sometimes if a man short for a game ask one of the other teams players to stand in. its fine to play for multiple teams in one division but there is a limit on how many can be played a division below.(it is frowned upon to play for multiple teams regularly)

4.) Divisions by being top 1 or 2 in the division or bottom 1 or 2 much like football. you can transfer teams in my lower league when you like as its more of a social rather than official thing.

5.) i would imagine any team looking to bring in a new player if serious enough to warrant that would ask someone to drop out, however usually teams are formed of players of a similar standard and as referred to earlier quite a social thing, you can drop players if you want but if you're doing it as a friendly activity it might not be wise.

6.) so we have 4 regular players on our team with a backup team of 4. a match is 3v3 with 9 singles and 1 doubles, the team captain usually arranges the dates of matches and invited who he likes, however as we only have 4 usually one is busy each week. doubles is the real kicker as one person always has to sit out. my motto for that is if it matters that much do it based on sets won, but now and again to stop the other players getting disgruntled as they are there for fun too we cycle.(or sometimes if we cant decide who to not play we rock paper scissors it)

7.) No not normally, we had this issue the strongest player in our team only was available a couple of months a year, as such we didn't invite him after a while because it was unfair to the worse but more committed members.

we play as fairly and as for fun as possible, once you get good or take it seriously you get drama et al. the general rules are to always form a team of a similar standard to stop players getting upset with each other and to always remember you're not professional and should be playing for fun(even though it's nice to win) and as such dont get mad at a player for loosing a game that would secure a win or draw because ina couple of weeks time that might be you

hope that helped

 

[NDH]

Let me turn the tables a bit and ask fellow forum members from Europe (and other team-oriented TT places) about some aspects of the league play:

1. How do you end up on a team?

2. Presumably team is from a certain club - who gets to decide how many teams this club will field in the league and in which division?

3. Do you have a say who you play with?

4. How do you move from one division to another? How about from one team to a different one?

5. Let's say you are the weakest player on a given team - what happens when team wants to 'upgrade', are you asked to drop out?

6. Let's assume you must have 3 players for a team match - I suspect there are more than 3 players on a team, to allow for real life commitments, injuries etc. Who decides who gets to play on a given day?

7. What if a certain player only shows up for 20% of matches. Do you invite them back next season?

I guess I'm somewhat curious whether you are also getting a bit of drama, politics, and other not so pleasant aspects when you are dealing with teams, as opposed to individual competition format.

I'll also reply - I'm in the same country as Passifid below me, but the leagues I play in "appear" to be more on the serious side.

1. There are lots of teams dotted all over the country, and providing you don't live in an extremely remote area, there will likely be 4 or 5 different teams, all within 10/15 miles - In a biggish Town, there will be 10/15 teams all within 5 miles!

If you are brand new to the sport, you'll start off by going down to one of the more social/training sessions in the evening. Some clubs only play one night per week, so their match nights and "social/training" nights happen at the same time. This is a chance for new people to get to know the club members and try and improve their game.

Once you are of an OK standard (doesn't have to be great, but providing you can hit a ball back and serve properly, there will be a place for you), you can enquire about the league availability. Most of the time, you will slot into the squad in one of the bottom teams - From experience, teams are made up of anywhere between 3 and 6 players (with only 3 playing each week) - The captain will try and accommodate everyone equally so the matches are spread out.

This still applies to the top division, but typically more emphasis is placed on winning, and the strongest team is usually put out each week (availability dependant).

2. Yep, each team is part of a "Club" in general. Some Clubs only have 1 team (perhaps they were 3/4 friends who created a team because they had a venue), other Clubs have 7/8 teams which play in different divisions (or sometimes the same).

If a new team wants to join the league (maybe a new venue has been found, or there's enough people playing in a certain area to create a new team), then it is up to the league committee to decide on this - They will never be turned away, because we need more people playing.

Sometimes, it will be new players (to the sport), in a new team. These will go into the bottom division.

Other times, it will be established (sometimes very very good) players, who have created a new team (for whatever reason), and they will likely be placed in their appropriate division (providing it wouldn't cause a scheduling nightmare).

People don't create teams for the fun of it. 99% of the time, they will play for an established Club - I couldn't run off with 2 mates and create a "NDH" team for example (unless I had a great venue and table, along with the league backing) - However, it would be frowned upon.

3. When you are new to the sport, you typically get placed in the lowest team (or if you happen to be naturally gifted, the team that is level appropriate).

Once you get to the top division, people have played with each other for years (usually), and the bulk of players play in the same team together each year.

Sometimes a player may move clubs (due to moving house, old club wasn't working for them for whatever reason - mach home night didn't work etc) - When that player moves clubs, he will be placed in an appropriate team (providing the new club are OK with this, which they always are).

4. There is a league structure - Most of the time, it's the bottom 2 teams which get relegated, and the top 2 teams get promoted. "Most" leagues have a website which shows player averages, league position, match results etc. Here is one of the leagues I play in - https://www.tabletennis365.com/Towcester

5. This is possibly one of the differences in mentality between UK "Team" play, and the slightly more individualist view of the Americans - Now, I must firstly say, I am very much in the camp of the US view..... I play to win. However, there is an unwritten rule, and you don't "drop" players if they aren't quite making the grade. Of course, if they are consistently getting destroyed, they will likely ask to play in a lower team in that club. It's worth pointing out, that most of these people are friends (perhaps not at the start, but you get friendly with everyone after playing week in week out).

6. Each team has a captain who sorts out the matches each week. The fixtures are created at the start of the year, so you can see when/who you play each week. Most of the time, the captain will try and rotate the players to make it fair. If you have 4 committed players, who want to play every week, you will not accept a 5th "regular player".

7. Typically, communication is pretty good. If a player can only play part of the season, we would accommodate them (providing they were of a good standard), into one of the teams. However, if each team was already full, he wouldn't get a chance to play. This rarely happens, and in fact, teams tend to struggle to get 3 players each week, rather than having too many players.

I hope this helps - Apologies for the super long post!

 

[Xylit]

In Germany we have about 20 different leagues depending on where you live, from the 1. Bundesliga (with Boll, Apolonia etc. playing) down to the lowest league in your region. My club has five different teams for men, all participating in different leagues of those 20. A team consists of six players (1. Bundesliga = 3 players, 2. and 3. Bundesliga = 4 players, everything below = 6 players), therefore a league match is a 6 vs 6 match (3 doubles, 12 single matches, 1 deciding double) either ending with the first team to 9 points or as a 8:8 tie. If you have to play until the last game it takes up to four hours max, usually a league match is played on two tables simultaneously. After the match you go out for something to eat and drink with your opponents

If a new player joins our club and wants to participate in a league we have to put him in a team according to his TTR points. So every club has a TTR ranking of his players and has to arrange them in teams according to their TTR. Best six players team 1, players 7-12 team 2 etc. with very little room for changes.

A league consists of 10 teams on average, you play every team twice (once at your place, once at their place) so you have ~18 games each season. The games are scheduled before a season starts by the organisator of your league. First nine games from September to Christmas, few weeks break, second nine games from January to April, break until September again (time for tournaments ) At the end of a season the top teams are promoted to the next higher league and the worst teams move down a league.

Every team has a team captain that decides on who is going to play if there are more than six players in your team but normally that is not the case. Usually you have exactly six people in your team, if someone is ill a player of a team below has to help you out.

Each half-season (after ~9 games each) a club has to arrange its players according to new TTR points that could mix up the teams again.

I live in south Germany and we have a table tennis club with one or more teams every 20km or so or even closer, bigger cities have multiple clubs. Everything is well organised here.

I forgot anyhting? Feel free to ask.

 

[pgpg]

Thanks to everyone for very informative answers - it does look like density of TT clubs/venues/players is remarkable 'over there'.

One question I forgot to ask: do you think TT is popular in Europe/UK because you have leagues or is it the other way around: TT is popular per se, so leagues exist to provide competition? I know it's very hard to prove causality here, but purely from your point of view, which one is it (perhaps both are true...)?

 

[NDH]

Thanks to everyone for very informative answers - it does look like density of TT clubs/venues/players is remarkable 'over there'.

One question I forgot to ask: do you think TT is popular in Europe/UK because you have leagues or is it the other way around: TT is popular per se, so leagues exist to provide competition? I know it's very hard to prove causality here, but purely from your point of view, which one is it (perhaps both are true...)?

I've seen a gradual decline in participation over the last 15 years.

10 years ago, one of the leagues I played in had 5 divisions - It now has just 3 (equivalent to about 16 teams leaving - 16 X 3 players each = 48 less players!).

I would say the availability of "having a try" is great - There is easy access to a table almost anywhere in the country.

I'd say most people don't know about the League side of things until they start playing/having an interest.

So on that front, the Leagues don't help to attract players.

I do think the Leagues help to "retain" players though (although as I've explained, the sport seems to be on a bit of a downer at the moment).

 

[MDP]

It's not really popular if you compare it to other sports (football and cycling are huge in Belgium for exemple).
It's still considered a kind of easy going fun pass-time activity, when you tell people you play table tennis as a sport.

The large amount of small and large clubs, we have here is the reason why many people play it. In about a 15km radius from where I live, there are 10 clubs (that I know of) already. And then there are different sport centres where you can rent a table aswell and in so many people's garage there is a pingpong table hidden behind a stack of boxes somewhere. We even have a crappy table set up at work.

So I believe many people play table tennis (ranging from pass-time players to professional players) in Belgium but everything is divided into so many small pieces (league vs recreational players, big clubs vs small clubs, pass-time players vs club players, ...) that the sport stays really small. There is a lack of coherence and a sort of 'scene'.

The learning curve is also quite hard and the lack of trainers doesn't help. I mostly learned how to play from watching and playing against better players.

Compared to sports like football and cycling, the ratio of spectators to actual players is completely different. There is alot more infrastructure and coaching, much more media coverage and much more money going around.

 

[pgpg]

It's not really popular if you compare it to other sports (football and cycling are huge in Belgium for exemple).

Well, comparing it to other major sports is a tall order - I'm pretty sure here in US TT is less popular than Ultimate Frisbee. Still, I'd take ">10 clubs in 10 mile radius" anytime - I have may be 2 and I'm lucky that one of them is really good

 

[MDP]

Well, comparing it to other major sports is a tall order - I'm pretty sure here in US TT is less popular than Ultimate Frisbee. Still, I'd take ">10 clubs in 10 mile radius" anytime - I have may be 2 and I'm lucky that one of them is really good

Come to think of it, the problems I have mentioned are related to Table Tennis in general, not so much the situation in Belgium.

 

[Medax]

For those that play TT in the UK, has anyone noticed that Table Tennis 365 is attempting to provide a rating for each player in each local league?

It seems that the base rating starts from anyone who plays national or VETTS and then the rest are worked out from there.

Has anyone looked at this new feature yet and does it stack up?

 

[Tinykin]

Even if it it does not stack up initially, I'm sure that with feedback those geeks at TT365 will get it right.

 

[NDH]

For those that play TT in the UK, has anyone noticed that Table Tennis 365 is attempting to provide a rating for each player in each local league?

It seems that the base rating starts from anyone who plays national or VETTS and then the rest are worked out from there.

Has anyone looked at this new feature yet and does it stack up?

I had heard something about this.

It hasn't been implemented in any of the 5 leagues I play in yet - I think it will slowly roll out over the next few years.

But Tinykin is right - In the end, it will work out who should be where!

 

[Medax]

NDH,
It might be that the link is not yet public on your site.... Try adding "/ranking" to your site URL