Video Footage Safe Thread

[NextLevel]

Hi all, it’s been a while but I’ve been working hard on my game. I am hoping for some advice or thoughts on a challenge I am facing with my BH loop. i recorded the video below as part of another thread on the double bounce footwork, but in watching it back it struck me that I don’t much like the look of my BH…

Im playing it more often, with more confidence, and landing at a higher % - but it looks jagged and snatchy to me and not smooth and free flowing like the top players I admire and try to emulate. I know at least some of the reason is that I have followed advice from multiple sources (Ti Long for example) who emphasise the need for a sharp end and return to ready - like a martial arts punch. This doesnt seem to gel with smooth and flowing for me…

I’d welcome any objective thoughts, observations or pointers as to what you are seeing (on either wing) to help me towards a better looking and smoother stroke..

The stroke is fine, in reality no one plays one good stroke, most people have a variety of techniques they adapt to balls and this shot is not out of place. I tell people all the time the secret to a high level backhand is getting more and more used to the wrist pointing towards your target at the end of the backswing, it is unnatural when you start but easier as you get better and gives you room to swing into the ball if your elbow leads the stroke as well.

The drill itself makes me wonder, I am not sure whether both balls are backspin balls and if they are, other than maybe making you stay low, there is low probability of you using this precise shot sequence and combination in a match. Even vs a chopper you are more likely to open with a backhand and then play a forehand, very rare that you would open with a forehand and then play an inside out backhand.

Carl made a lot of great comments and I would recommend you take them to heart. I spent a lot of time trying to make a stroke of mine fit a model a coach had given me and it actually made the stroke worse partly because ii didn't get the quality in the ball with the new stroke that I had with the old stroke. If you get good spin and speed with a shot, let the quality and consistency of the shot under taxing conditions be your main guide, table tennis is not a sport where you score points for beautiful shots though if you want to focus on playing them since they make you happy, you have a right to do that for sure. As my late coach used to tell me, the best stroke for you is the stroke that puts the ball on the table when you need it to, not Ma Long's stroke. As Carl pointed out, it would be nice to see how Ma Long evolved his forehead, focusing on the finished product can be very misleading when looking at the result of a long evolutionary process, which is what much TT technique development is.

Finally, without going crazy about the footwork drill you are working on, the key in TT is to be able to activate your backswing very quickly put of whatever stance you are in. This might require you to jump onto the backswing or to look for finishing positions where your balance allows you to play the next shot faster. Using this idea to understand footwork drills will make it easier for you to optimize these drills for you. Trying to optimize the footwork in the abstract can be highly inefficient to be honest. I got more efficient over time even with bad knees by optimizing my movements and sequences against desired patterns of responses. This is what I would recommend but you can follow other routes for sure.

 

[Wrighty67]

I have to be honest, I think you should change the drill. Maybe move the table over to the FH side more so there is less space on FH side and more on BH side and have the ball directed towards the middle of the BH side.

Taking the ball from that far over to the FH side with the BH is going to lead to bad habits on longer balls. If you take a BH from there in a match your BH is very exposed.

On these shots you are taking the ball as it is dropping (after the top of the bounce) which is a little late for what I believe you are trying to develop. This is causing you to angle your stroke more up and less forward than I think you would want. If you take the ball at the top of the bounce, I think you can make the stroke more forward and more over the top of the ball and it will have MORE Spin and More Speed. And because you are taking the ball from higher, and closer to the net, it should still be easy to clear the net. Even though this is VS BackSpin, you can spin more forward and less up if you are taking the ball at the top or on the rise because of the higher clearance and how you are meeting the ball.

It is possible that some of the awkwardness of the BH that you are seeing is that you are kind of taking the ball from a position that is not great for the BH. But it also may have to do with how much up and how little forward is in the stroke.

I am happy to hear other people's opinions on this. It is good to be able to take the ball while it is dropping too. So, if you had an intention for taking the ball as it is dropping, that is different. But your attack will be more powerful and more effective (faster, more spin, and less time for the opponent to react) if you can take the ball earlier (at the top or even on the rise).

Still, both strokes look pretty okay. And I would warn about the risks of trying to make your strokes look like someone else's (especially pros) rather than learning to feel the shape of the ball and how to direct and arc the ball with your stroke. The mechanics will get smoother if you are repeating the stroke and feeling the ball while you are doing it.

The pros have developed their strokes over 100s of 1000s of hours of training. It is worth noting how all top pros have slightly different strokes. Each person's body is different: length of upper arm, lower arm legs torso....ideally, once you have the basics, which I think you have, you learn to feel and groove the stroke so it is adjusted to your body, and to the circumstances of the incoming ball.

What do I mean by circumstances? Taking the ball earlier, the stroke may be more forward and more closed (even against backspin) which would also require a backswing that was higher. Taking the ball later, you need to drop the racket more and swing up more. The spin on the ball would require you to adjust the stroke. The kind of shot you want to take (hook, straight top, fade) would require adjustments to the shot. Part of the training is learning to adjust to each individual ball. Which is why, at a certain point, the most important training is RANDOM.

But if you were doing the same footwork and taking the ball in the middle of the BH side of the table, this would give you skills that would be much more important to develop even though this drill is not random.

Thanks Carl - plenty to digest here but in short, what you say mirrors what my coach says on both wings. Not enough forwards direction and too much lift! I need to groove this as it feels very unnatural to me and I lose confidence I’ll clear the net. I do see the connection however between the angle of attack and a more smooth stroke.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks Carl - plenty to digest here but in short, what you say mirrors what my coach says on both wings. Not enough forwards direction and too much lift! I need to groove this as it feels very unnatural to me and I lose confidence I’ll clear the net. I do see the connection however between the angle of attack and a more smooth stroke.

Definitely read what NextLevel said closely as well. He is talking about some important points that will be well worth sorting out.

As far as the forward motion, with backspin, you would need to take the ball earlier and at the top or on the rise to be able to loop forward. If you don't bring your timing earlier, trying to stroke forward won't work. So, you need the timing in order to loop forward vs backspin. But if you are looking for an offensive opening on a backspin ball, by waiting, you are forcing the stroke to be angled up and that limits the force you can apply forward.

So, the first part is to take the ball earlier. Once you are doing that you should be able to spin more forward with a decent degree of safety. Once the ball is dropping after the top of the bounce, you kind of have to spin up from behind the ball because of the path the ball is on.

 

[NextLevel]

Definitely read what NextLevel said closely as well. He is talking about some important points that will be well worth sorting out.

As far as the forward motion, with backspin, you would need to take the ball earlier and at the top or on the rise to be able to loop forward. If you don't bring your timing earlier, trying to stroke forward won't work. So, you need the timing in order to loop forward vs backspin. But if you are looking for an offensive opening on a backspin ball, by waiting, you are forcing the stroke to be angled up and that limits the force you can apply forward.

So, the first part is to take the ball earlier. Once you are doing that you should be able to spin more forward with a decent degree of safety. Once the ball is dropping after the top of the bounce, you kind of have to spin up from behind the ball because of the path the ball is on.

The thing about practice that many people get wrong (and I am not saying this applies to anyone on this thread) is that there is nothing wrong with making errors in practice - it is a adaptive process. So while the shot is fine, one could argue that there is more upper arm engaged than ideal especially on the forehand and that you should just snap the bicep. But when you try this, the ball goes into the net and the impulse is to revert to what works. Alternatively you could trust and expect the body to adapt over time.

This is the same kind of problem that prevents people from taking the ball early. You try it, and the ball goes into the net and then you do what you know works. Or you never try it. because it doesn't feel comfortable so you stick to what works.

Again, there is nothing wrong with any of this. I should post some of my tournament matches seen and you will see lots of mistakes because I don't get low enough to handle the backspins consistently. Or I often swing too hard and don't focus on relaxed spin. In the end though, push the limits of your technique in practice, there is absolutely nothing wrong with hitting the ball into the net or the table or off the table. in fact, being able to do it with a certain level of precision enhances your ball control. Give yourself liberty to hit the ball in multiple ways with the same swing so you can truly adapt your technique to the ball. Of you give yourself the chance to make mistakes, especially with a robot keeping the ball quality the same, you should be able to work out what you need to take the ball earlier. You may not do it all tbe time or like the effort involved. But doing it will expand your feel for the game for sure.

 

[Wrighty67]

Definitely read what NextLevel said closely as well. He is talking about some important points that will be well worth sorting out.

As far as the forward motion, with backspin, you would need to take the ball earlier and at the top or on the rise to be able to loop forward. If you don't bring your timing earlier, trying to stroke forward won't work. So, you need the timing in order to loop forward vs backspin. But if you are looking for an offensive opening on a backspin ball, by waiting, you are forcing the stroke to be angled up and that limits the force you can apply forward.

So, the first part is to take the ball earlier. Once you are doing that you should be able to spin more forward with a decent degree of safety. Once the ball is dropping after the top of the bounce, you kind of have to spin up from behind the ball because of the path the ball is on.

Thanks again Carl & NL - as always you have given me the pointer to the issue I was trying to find, but couldn't see.

I knew I was too vertical in plane and take the ball later rather than earlier, and I knew I needed to work on more forward movement on both sides, but hadn't really put these together with what I see in the stroke that looks jerky and snatchy - I can now see why the two are linked.

I am excited to start to work on an earlier contact and more rotation forwards and will be sure to post something once it looks better.

 

[Jslick89]

Finally got some footage from some of my robot training in the garage. Approx 2 months ago i changed grip (as per my new coach's advice) to a more neutral/traditional grip ..so i'm still adjusting. some of my balls are flying long, but others are coming off real quality in training and in match play). I've been playing at the club for about 2 years...and training with coaches for about 15 months.

Backhand, wide forehand, middle, wide forehand (topspin)

One to the middle, then random to either backhand or forehand (topspin)

Forehand opening loop vs right-underspin (some of these go really long, others go half long)

Forehand pivot/backhand vs right-underspin to backhand corner
this is where you can really see the effect of my grip when the balls tend to fly left...still making this adjustment...harder to pivot and loop it across the table but i can still do it semi consistently when i get into my grove...and also execute in match play

 

[Jslick89]

I am open to comments btw!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am open to comments btw!

In this thread, if you post, unless you say: "I just want to post this footage, please don't comment," it kind of means you would like comments from one of the people approved to give comments.

I am trying to let some of the others give you comments. But one thing I will say is, that last video: if you take the ball from there and practice going to the opponent's BH corner (so fade cross court) it would probably teach you something worth learning. You may also have to adjust your FH grip to fade to the BH corner with the FH.

 

[JJ Ng]

I am open to comments btw!

Ok, I watched all the videos. I am not sure if I am allowed to comment. A few things:

[JJ Ng: please read my comment following.]

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Ok, I watched all the videos. I am not sure if I am allowed to comment. A few things:

Well, here is the answer:

Read the first post in this thread:

This thread is for forum members to post footage of yourself. This is different than a regular thread. I will moderate this thread heavily. Anyone can post footage. But the only people who can comment on the footage are people who have been specifically selected because they are players who are able to give useful commentary.

These are the players who can give commentary on video footage:

1) Baal
2) Der_Echte
3) NDH
4) Richie
5) Lula
6) NextLevel
7) Brs
8) Takkyu_wa_inochi
9) Tinykin
10) pingpongpaddy
11) Tony's Table Tennis
12) Victor Moraga
13) cytivrat


Anyone can post footage. However, if anyone not on the list above tries to post commentary on footage, that commentary will be deleted. If someone presents commentary to me via PM for posting, and I deem it okay to post, I may make exceptions to this every so often. I also am reserving the right to edit the list and add if I decide someone is capable of making good, insightful commentary.

Hopefully, this will make it so people feel comfortable posting footage of themselves for people on the forum to see and get to know each other without feeling like the commentary that happens after posting footage is uncalled for. Also, if you wanted to post footage but would prefer nobody comments on the footage you present, you can ask that. I will help make that happen as well.


Again, comments from people who are not on the list above will get deleted.

If you are not on that list, then you are not allowed to comment or give feedback on people's technique in this particular thread.

But if you would like to be able to give feedback on people's technique in the thread, first, you will need to post some footage of yourself and make sure I see it.

 

[JJ Ng]

Well, here is the answer:

Read the first post in this thread:

If you are not on that list, then you are not allowed to comment or give feedback on people's technique in this particular thread.

But if you would like to be able to give feedback on people's technique in the thread, first, you will need to post some footage of yourself and make sure I see it.

Lol, got it! I will private message him directly!

 

[Jslick89]

In this thread, if you post, unless you say: "I just want to post this footage, please don't comment," it kind of means you would like comments from one of the people approved to give comments.

I am trying to let some of the others give you comments. But one thing I will say is, that last video: if you take the ball from there and practice going to the opponent's BH corner (so fade cross court) it would probably teach you something worth learning. You may also have to adjust your FH grip to fade to the BH corner with the FH.

Oh yeah I definitely practice that with my coach! One other thing I do is 25 balls to that same spot, first hit I go cross court to my opponent@/ backhand, then reset and aim for the middle (opponents elbow), then reset and on the third shot go down the line (opponents forehand). If I miss a shot I try to aim at that same place again.

Looking forward to the comments

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi J-Slick...

Take a look at your BH point of impact. You often strike the ball way too far in front of you to get any leverage. (sometimes you are striking it at the point of full arm extension from body - like 2-2.5 feet from body) About the only shot doing the impact that far in front and having any chance at consistency/quality is a BH poke.

Consider moving the point of impact back... to let's say a foot from your body, you will have way more leverage and offensive possibility for quality.

This is a philosophical question of theory and application. Some players play with next to zero offensive BH, some use it as a setup or weapon. There is no single correct answer... but if you want your BH to be anything more than poke it and keep it in play, look at changing your point of impact.

 

[SleepyMaster]

How someone can achieve a spot for commenting? Just curious, not wanting to giving advices. I find it fare, that not everyone have access to do it

 

[JJ Ng]

How someone can achieve a spot for commenting? Just curious, not wanting to giving advices. I find it fare, that not everyone have access to do it

Lol, I have to set up an audition video to comment on the thread. I am working on it....

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Lol, I have to set up an audition video to comment on the thread. I am working on it....

America's Got Talent kind of thing. Carl is the equivalent to Simon Cowell.

 

[JJ Ng]

America's Got Talent kind of thing. Carl is the equivalent to Simon Cowell.

Lol, I am sick right now. Congested. Sore throat. I am staying away from the club. I have to set some settings on my powerpong to get my audition tape ready. But I still have to work from home so who knows when I can get my audition tape ready?

 

[JJ Ng]

Here are my audition tapes!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

How someone can achieve a spot for commenting? Just curious, not wanting to giving advices. I find it fare, that not everyone have access to do it

How someone can achieve a spot for commenting? Just curious, not wanting to giving advices. I find it fare, that not everyone have access to do it

It is not just a video. I have to see the person play. But more importantly, I have to see the person comment on footage.

The idea here is, the comments in this thread should be by people who have posted video so others who are posting have seen them and have an idea of how the person commenting plays. And then I have to see that the comments they make or would make, would be useful and constructive to the person whose footage they are commenting on.

Like, GrandMast3r, the people commenting on the footage in your thread, most of them would not be allowed to give feedback in this thread.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here are my audition tapes!

Not really audition tapes.

You look like your technique is pretty okay. I would suggest you may want to post actual match footage. Also, match footage vs someone who is pretty close to your level. This is you playing vs a robot. It shows your strokes. But it is not really all that valuable in terms of seeing how you handle things that give you trouble.

And since you said you are sick right now, that will need to wait till you are better and can go to your club to play vs real humans.