What do you call this?

[blahness]

Take away the LP, the master will still be able to be very good in another style
equipment is only as good as the training behind it.

modern LP chop blockers are the next generation from these CP LP players

Doubt so. LP players do rely heavily on their equipment to make their game possible, similar to what inverted players do.

A lot of LP players don't even need to read serve spin accurately for starters, the rubber is so damn insensitive to spin anyway.

My practice partner plays with both LP and inverted and loves using LP to return my tricky serves and its a significant difference between receive success rates with his inverted (frequently around maybe 50%+ only) and with LP side (going up to 80+% easily). In the amateur circuit this is a huge advantage which cannot be overstated. Especially against good servers, this is already neutralising a huge part of the game (the servers advantage).

There was some discussion with Sun Ting the infamous hook serve master, about how Ma Lin was so frustrated in receiving his serves that he slapped on a piece of LP on his reverse side just to win the match against Sun Ting (because LPs make it so much easier to receive serves)

 

[Der_Echte]

It seems like this style is better suited for penhold, right? That way you can use the same LP from both sides, and you can kinda punch-block easily

Hi blahness,

It may appear that way on paper, but on the ground, JZ has the touch on his BH to make a real quality return consistently... he does pretty much the same thing with his FH, but he kills some or all the spin, returns it long right to your wheelhouse, and dares you to go for it again... and if you are not 2000-2100+ ball reading skills, you gunna go down in flames more and more like inferno.

JZ gives you the rope and you hang yourself... WILLINGLY like a brain dead joker.

If you try to play safe, then he brings out that Short Pips FH hit and point is over or next to it. If your safe shot is not 2100+ level, you in big trouble doing that too.

Pips or no pips, the better level players put pressure on opponents like that. You know you have to get big advantage early and take risks or he kills you... this causes you to play outside self and outside your level and you just make it worse for yourself.

The better players pressure their opponents mentally and make them decide how to lose.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I have seen it with my own eyes; someone who plays one side LP and Inverted who can dominate both side inverted gets a taste of his own medicine when playing with another person also with LP and inverted twiddler.

I mean; they are so use to block and the ball seldom come back because of the LP, that when met with another LP that makes the ball come back, that LP is dumbfounded.

This is like a doctor who dispense bitter medicine but unable take one's own bitter medicine.

All these while they just stand on one spot block with LP and earn cheap points plainly because of the LP effect.

 

[Lowday20298]

I've seen something similar, anti on fh and normal on bh. Shake with no twindle. I lost pretty bad to him, very tricky.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

The player with LP is Kojima currently “the strongest LP player in Japan”

He qualified quite a few times for the national champs even though he doesn’t go deep in the tournament.

He’s got his own YT channel but he’s been featured in other popular channels. There is even a video of a match with Kenta Matsudaira. He’s losing 0-3 but in G1 it was close

I often encounter this kind of player in tournaments. I hate this style but I need to practice more against it. There are a few players of similar style at my club.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Doubt so. LP players do rely heavily on their equipment to make their game possible, similar to what inverted players do.

A lot of LP players don't even need to read serve spin accurately for starters, the rubber is so damn insensitive to spin anyway.

My practice partner plays with both LP and inverted and loves using LP to return my tricky serves and its a significant difference between receive success rates with his inverted (frequently around maybe 50%+ only) and with LP side (going up to 80+% easily). In the amateur circuit this is a huge advantage which cannot be overstated. Especially against good servers, this is already neutralising a huge part of the game (the servers advantage).

There was some discussion with Sun Ting the infamous hook serve master, about how Ma Lin was so frustrated in receiving his serves that he slapped on a piece of LP on his reverse side just to win the match against Sun Ting (because LPs make it so much easier to receive serves)

my point was, the hours of training behind it is what counts.
one can't just put LP up and expect to be unbeatable, I think that is a common misunderstanding - maybe as you said, in the amateur circuit.
I find it that many countries don't have a good amount of LP/SP/MP players, which is probably mostly in Asia. So in Asia, one would "grow up" knowing how to handle pips, so end of the day, it is players ability vs players ability and not equipment vs equipment.

 

[Dominikk85]

Doubt so. LP players do rely heavily on their equipment to make their game possible, similar to what inverted players do.

A lot of LP players don't even need to read serve spin accurately for starters, the rubber is so damn insensitive to spin anyway.

My practice partner plays with both LP and inverted and loves using LP to return my tricky serves and its a significant difference between receive success rates with his inverted (frequently around maybe 50%+ only) and with LP side (going up to 80+% easily). In the amateur circuit this is a huge advantage which cannot be overstated. Especially against good servers, this is already neutralising a huge part of the game (the servers advantage).

There was some discussion with Sun Ting the infamous hook serve master, about how Ma Lin was so frustrated in receiving his serves that he slapped on a piece of LP on his reverse side just to win the match against Sun Ting (because LPs make it so much easier to receive serves)

I think that pips enable some players to be good who wouldn't be elite longer than they would be otherwise (ni xia Liang, he zhi wen) but the very vast majority of LP players is like under 1500 in level. The number of pips players who can beat experienced and good inverted players of 2000+ is not that large so those guys have a skill that the majority of LP players doesn't have.

Lp players might have an advantage against novice level or lowly trained inverted players but most good inverted players can handle LPs and to beat those a LP player does need a lot of skill (either exceptional defense skills or a good mix of attack and defense).

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think that pips enable some players to be good who wouldn't be elite longer than they would be otherwise (ni xia Liang, he zhi wen) but the very vast majority of LP players is like under 1500 in level. The number of pips players who can beat experienced and good inverted players of 2000+ is not that large so those guys have a skill that the majority of LP players doesn't have.

Lp players might have an advantage against novice level or lowly trained inverted players but most good inverted players can handle LPs and to beat those a LP player does need a lot of skill (either exceptional defense skills or a good mix of attack and defense).

I am sure in Taiwan, there are over 300, if not 500 players who use pips that are higher than 2000+ who are still in school.
If I include the ones who don't really play any more, but coach or proper retired, that number could doubled. I'm sure if they were to come back for a week of training, they would be 2000+ again.

and the ones like Ni and He in China, 50+ or 60+ years old, i'm sure there are hundreds (if not thousands) of uncle and aunty that is higher than 2000 too.

2000 is basically achievable as a 11 or 12 year old in Asia and buffer a bit, by 13~14 years old.
Basically, if you can't hit 2000 by 13, you should stop training and master something else rather.

The understanding of spin, the usage of spin is what makes LP players different or special.
those 1500 you mentioned, the understanding of spin would obviously be a lot lacking.

There was a 2300~2400 Taiwanese girl that went to USA while still being 17 or 18 years old and beating 2500~2600 players and ended up 2500+

I think because in Asia, the amount of training means they are good.
if you take away the pips, say Ni or He, they rating might drop by 20%, which still make them very good. Some people think they won't be able to play any more...which is obviously incorrect.
Amateurs tend to think the pips are doing the damage and not the 50+ thousands of hours of training.

 

[zeio]

There was some discussion with Sun Ting the infamous hook serve master, about how Ma Lin was so frustrated in receiving his serves that he slapped on a piece of LP on his reverse side just to win the match against Sun Ting (because LPs make it so much easier to receive serves)

Fun fact:
MLin actually played penhold twiddling with LP when he entered the CNT.

 

[Dominikk85]

I am sure in Taiwan, there are over 300, if not 500 players who use pips that are higher than 2000+ who are still in school.
If I include the ones who don't really play any more, but coach or proper retired, that number could doubled. I'm sure if they were to come back for a week of training, they would be 2000+ again.

and the ones like Ni and He in China, 50+ or 60+ years old, i'm sure there are hundreds (if not thousands) of uncle and aunty that is higher than 2000 too.

2000 is basically achievable as a 11 or 12 year old in Asia and buffer a bit, by 13~14 years old.
Basically, if you can't hit 2000 by 13, you should stop training and master something else rather.

The understanding of spin, the usage of spin is what makes LP players different or special.
those 1500 you mentioned, the understanding of spin would obviously be a lot lacking.

There was a 2300~2400 Taiwanese girl that went to USA while still being 17 or 18 years old and beating 2500~2600 players and ended up 2500+

I think because in Asia, the amount of training means they are good.
if you take away the pips, say Ni or He, they rating might drop by 20%, which still make them very good. Some people think they won't be able to play any more...which is obviously incorrect.
Amateurs tend to think the pips are doing the damage and not the 50+ thousands of hours of training.

Yeah of course there are a lot of 2000+ players in absolute numbers, but I would still guess like 90% of all players never reach 2000+.

I was just saying that many think that using LPs makes a bad player good and I just don't think that that is true.

Now I also believe the He and Ni couldn't have beaten top50 players in the world at age 50+ with double inverted but as you said they still would be good players (maybe 2200 instead of 2400 or so maybe?)


There are some people who think that LP players are total hacks who would be like 500+ points lower with inverted and that any random hack could be good just by gluing on a pip to his bat.

 

[Lowday20298]

What would I call this? I would call it annoying.

Annoying yet easy to beat with tactics.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Yeah of course there are a lot of 2000+ players in absolute numbers, but I would still guess like 90% of all players never reach 2000+.

I was just saying that many think that using LPs makes a bad player good and I just don't think that that is true.

Now I also believe the He and Ni couldn't have beaten top50 players in the world at age 50+ with double inverted but as you said they still would be good players (maybe 2200 instead of 2400 or so maybe?)


There are some people who think that LP players are total hacks who would be like 500+ points lower with inverted and that any random hack could be good just by gluing on a pip to his bat.

I think its far higher than 90%

 

[dingyibvs]

I think its far higher than 90%

I guess 90% of tournament players. There are so many who play regularly and never play tournaments, and almost all are below 2000 level.

 

[blahness]

I think that pips enable some players to be good who wouldn't be elite longer than they would be otherwise (ni xia Liang, he zhi wen) but the very vast majority of LP players is like under 1500 in level. The number of pips players who can beat experienced and good inverted players of 2000+ is not that large so those guys have a skill that the majority of LP players doesn't have.

Lp players might have an advantage against novice level or lowly trained inverted players but most good inverted players can handle LPs and to beat those a LP player does need a lot of skill (either exceptional defense skills or a good mix of attack and defense).

Yes at higher levels ppl are no longer troubled by the basic spin reversal stuff, and the amount of sting on incoming loops can be quite overwhelming - defending those are a pain with LPs especially if the attacker is also adept at changing up the spin, speed and placement. It's also something I exploit whenever I play them. There's weaknesses for sure.

But I guess it's the way that they win that makes ppl feel annoyed at because of the sheer lack of physicality in this playstyle that makes it unsportslike.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yeah of course there are a lot of 2000+ players in absolute numbers, but I would still guess like 90% of all players never reach 2000+.

well, i'm using numbers of LP players that can be or are higher than 2000. Which is a very high number.

You see, this style of play is more popular in Asia, and has been for decades.
If you are this style and not say 2000 by the time you finish elementary school, then you should really stop playing table tennis in Taiwan, and rather move away from sports class to academic class.

In fact in Taiwan, if you are in the TT system and if you can't reach 2000, you are really fooling around. Even the weakest "premier" high school girl player i've seen would be over 2000. 2nd division high school girl players could also surpass 2000 too.

I was just saying that many think that using LPs makes a bad player good and I just don't think that that is true.

correct, as I said, LP players actually need a lot of hours of training to be able to understand and master the spin.
It isn't that easy to use, but then the people who are confused are likely below 2000, or don't have any proper TT hours behind them.
TT school kids easily do 35 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. So easily 1500+ hours a year.
If you only do 5 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, that is 250 hours, or barely a 6 to 1 ratio.

Now I also believe the He and Ni couldn't have beaten top50 players in the world at age 50+ with double inverted but as you said they still would be good players (maybe 2200 instead of 2400 or so maybe?)

I would say, at the moment they are maybe around 2550.
if you put double inverted on, they would likely be around 2200~2300.
They would still be able to block non stop and the opponent would need to be very consistent to be able to win.
You can't just take away that "feel" of the ball from them.

There are some people who think that LP players are total hacks who would be like 500+ points lower with inverted and that any random hack could be good just by gluing on a pip to his bat.

yep, agree
it is mostly low level players who think this.
the same players would struggle with inverted spin too.
table tennis in higher level is more about the spin than anything else and this aspect is what differs 2600 players to 2800 players.
The understanding of spin and management of the spin is what makes one different to the other.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

In the low level area; a pips player should give four advantage points to the inverted. At the pro or above two thousand level, then no quarters given.

Sports is about fair and level playing field. You guys are ignoring the fact that at lower level, pips are giving the user a lot of unfair advantage. Stop blaming the lower level for being a total noob.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

In the low level area; a pips player should give four advantage points to the inverted. At the pro or above two thousand level, then no quarters given.

Sports is about fair and level playing field. You guys are ignoring the fact that at lower level, pips are giving the user a lot of unfair advantage. Stop blaming the lower level for being a total noob.

haha
so when you play basketball, should the taller player also give courtesy points to the shorter ones?
Under 16 girls tournament, USA defeated El Salvador 114-19

or in rugby, the Japanese must ask for the same against the bigger and faster South Africans?
Or when Zimbabwe skiers face off the Austrian, because there is no snow back home?

Sports is never fair. There are rules and then within the boundary of rules you will have the strong vs the weak.
One can argue if such rule is right or wrong, but that is some other discussion.
So within the same rule, you either adapt, or you loose/out.

There is a reason why hardbats or pickle ball exists and why table tennis is one of the most technical sports to master.
This is no different to a very lazy inverted player who only pushes the whole game. Or someone using high end equipment but you use ITTF approved hobby bats. But if it wins them the match, the problem is not them, but you.

Not just targeting to you Gozo, but the general consensus of pip opponents moaners in general on this forum. The attitude should be to learn and improve and to beat these pip opponents. But then again, TB would rather spend money on rubbers and blades (i've lost count how many he bought in 2023), but did he spend anything or make investment in improvement his playing abilities? I doubt.

This is basically what I teach kids, just that now I need to say the same to adults....

 

[Zwill]

Some good matches against Kenta Matsudaira who back in the day used to be the sheet. I quite enjoy this kind of style playing against 2 winged attackers. It's very entertaining if one knows what is going on.

 

[blahness]

Some good matches against Kenta Matsudaira who back in the day used to be the sheet. I quite enjoy this kind of style playing against 2 winged attackers. It's very entertaining if one knows what is going on.

Second video - Kenta's opponent's style is almost exactly what I have to deal with lol... except that he mainly uses RPB inverted, my partner uses RPB mainly for the LP side so that there's no transition to the strong penhold FH. Basically he will disgust you with the weirdest balls (LP+inverted) until you give up on attacking hard, then just loopkill you with the strong penhold FH and then you'll be off to pick up balls at the barrier lol.

You can see how he almost ate 0 of Kenta's serves. Kenta was forced into serving just plain heavy underspin / no spin serves because he didn't want the weird sidespin crap back.

 

[Wrighty67]

In the low level area; a pips player should give four advantage points to the inverted. At the pro or above two thousand level, then no quarters given.

Sports is about fair and level playing field. You guys are ignoring the fact that at lower level, pips are giving the user a lot of unfair advantage. Stop blaming the lower level for being a total noob.

Utter rubbish in my view…