What serve(s) would you rather not receive?

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Trying to develop a service routine as currently I have limited time back to the game and limited practice opponents but a wealth of spare time as I am now retired. I recently purchased a robot and table so I can practice the service game but I cannot really tell if what seems spinney and tricky is worth developing or if I am working on something that will just be a tasty morsel when I go to my first tournament.Some of you know that I didn't play from 1992 until a month ago. In that time the game has changed quite a bit. Larger ball of a different material, rubber is different, number of consecutive serves went from 5 to 2 and the game goes to 11 rather than 21. I am aware of the various videos available showing service technique and types of service delivery but I have not found anything about what serves tend to be more effective than others. Watching the pros serve and receive does help but you seldom can tell if the pros find a serve really troublesome other than they push rather than attack a serve with a flip or loop.I am looking for information about what normal players find difficult to attack or even what tends to place you on the defensive and the serves you just wish your opponent would never give you. I will of course keep all the information in a black book to reference when I face you in a tournament.
 
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Trying to develop a service routine as currently I have limited time back to the game and limited practice opponents but a wealth of spare time as I am now retired. I recently purchased a robot and table so I can practice the service game but I cannot really tell if what seems spinney and tricky is worth developing or if I am working on something that will just be a tasty morsel when I go to my first tournament.Some of you know that I didn't play from 1992 until a month ago. In that time the game has changed quite a bit. Larger ball of a different material, rubber is different, number of consecutive serves went from 5 to 2 and the game goes to 11 rather than 21. I am aware of the various videos available showing service technique and types of service delivery but I have not found anything about what serves tend to be more effective than others. Watching the pros serve and receive does help but you seldom can tell if the pros find a serve really troublesome other than they push rather than attack a serve with a flip or loop.I am looking for information about what normal players find difficult to attack or even what tends to place you on the defensive and the serves you just wish your opponent would never give you. I will of course keep all the information in a black book to reference when I face you in a tournament.

Gene, given the time you want to invest playing, depending on your resources, I would strongly encourage you to join TTEdge given how physically far away you are from good coaching.

In the end, serves are really about how you intend to play. The most important thing, other than to know what serve sets up the point the way you want to play it or having spin generating ability, is to have two serves which look the same but have different consequence if the returner returns them. This will make some people make return errors and gets you some free points or easy attack opportunities.
 
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Couldn't agree more. I find it's the most difficult thing to return, if the motion looks the same but the spin varies. A few coaches have told me that before.
I think that's also one of the reasons why many pros do the reverse pendulum so often. It allows to vary the spin a lot.
No matter if Top-, Side- and/or Backspin, the motions look very similar (if you get the follow through right), just the contact point varies and so does the spin.
It gives an opponent very little time to read the spin and react properly.

But... (with a capital 'B') it's not an easy learnable serve.
 
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Any serve can be effective if it turns out to be something that is different from what you think it is.

One of my favorite playing partners tends to serve conservatively and very low at a fairly optimal depth, and it's not easy to do much with it except when he occasionally sends one too long. He varies the spin some but I don't have much trouble getting the ball back if I play it a bit conservatively too, although I have to be very careful to put it in a place where he isn't ripping very hard right at my body or in a corner. That is ok, though, I have played him so much that I kind of know all his heavy spin/light spin variations. The problem comes that once every so often from the same motion he places the serve very deep right on the back line and catches me napping. He does it by hitting the ball much closer to his own backline and with more force and the ball sort of floats very deep on my side, And invariably I pop the return and he crushes the third ball. He is really good at doing it without tipping me off that it's coming.
 
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Thanks Next Level I joined TTEdge a couple of weeks ago. As a side note I signed up for the WDCTT September tournament. I will get there Thursday before the tournament and hope to see you and some of the other folks from this forum while I am there.
 
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Gene there are a lot of things that you can do with serve. Really depends on the situation of the match and your comfort level on attacking the third ball.

In your position, this is what I would do :
1. Before going to serve, spend some time trying to read the spin on serve receive in the tt edge app. Then some multiball practice. I have see this really helps if you do this just before going to bed . Basically, your eyes and brain should get trained to read the ball off the paddle and not the second bounce.
2. Try some third ball attack drills and see how you are handling your own sidespin when it comes back. If you see its inconsistent, try to minimize the side spin , especially for serve where the receiver can easily push to your backhand deep. Again, assuming that deep backhand is your weakest point as is with most right handed shake-hand players.
3. Once you have figured out that part, you would either stick to a underspin / no spin combination medium half long , which gives you the best chance for a ball to attack , especially if you can keep varying the placement . Stick to the elbow to start with , meaning the third bounce should be on the white line near the elbow either way.
4. You should also have a stock serve with heavy under spin to the deep backhand , especially with some . Its very difficult to attack and you should get a good third ball which you can loop.

Again , you can do variations on ball toss and change your strategy with opponent. Personally, I keep a serve in my pocket for the 5th game :p and keep thinking what my opponent has not seen before. At our levels , variation always wins easy points.
 
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Go get two chopsticks or wooden pencils, and a large clip that is used for holding large documents together. The clip needs to be large enough to be able to attach the chopsticks or pencils to the net posts. Tie a string between the two chopsticks. You can vary the height of the string by adjusting how high you clip the chopsticks and thereby vary the space between the net and the string. Learn to serve the ball under the string and above the net. Learn to do it with different amounts of spin. Then lower the string a little and continue until you can do it with quite little space.

If you can do this, your hands will get very "soft". You will be able to do more things with your serve. Every part of your game will get better.
 
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Don't underestimate long serves! Fast and deep no-spin serve is probably one of the most effective at intermediate level, especially when mixed up with topspin and backspin ones. Long breaking sidespin serves to wide angles can also work well.
 
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When we are talking about serves, there are three big branches of serves :
1. Most used ones, safe short (mainly)backspin serves that are un-flickable. If you know how to use properly these serves, you can build easily your third ball attack with a loop off backspin.
2. Serves aiming not to be received because of spin(most often side and topspin). These tend to be a little bit riskier because if the opponent reacts properly to your spin, most probably he'll get a chance to attack.
3. Long fast serves(aces). Most oftenly used not more than twice during a game because their main power is to surprise the opponent. If the receiver has read your intention to serve fast and long with no/top spin, you're dead, this is why i consider them to be the most risky ones.

So it's up to you deciding which side of the serve force to join and also if you want to be a simple stormtrooper of serving or if you want to become a real Jedi(or Sith, who knows :D).
 
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As a left handed player, I hate receiving low, short no spin/ low, short heavy sidespin serves to my forehand. Drop shotting is almost not an option (unless they have a little under), and I like to have my options. It's hard to open well from these serves (forehand flip or move over and backhand flip), and I don't like pushing long, since I like attacking first.
If there was a serve that I would hate receiving 999999 times in a row, it would be low, short, spinny heavy pendulum sidespin to my forehand from a right handed player.
(This is the serve I hate receiving the most, so I dare you, serve it to me. I will learn to destroy it with my hatred :) .)

Again as a left handed player, I can barely see the contact on some serves, especially if the player swings and contacts the ball quickly. I do realize that for a righty-righty matchup, it might not much as a problem, but it does get annoying for me. It's gotten to the point that I just look at how the ball bounces to read the spin if I'm too tired to complain. It may have improved my ability to read, but it is still very annoying.
 
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Here is some information on serves and practicing serves.

The amount of spin is not as important as the ability to vary the spin. So if you give heavy backspin and then you give lighter backspin but the two serves look similar, you will get two different returns. And you can use heavy then light to give you an easier return to open. If you go light then heavy, sometimes you can win an easy point right off the serve.

When practicing serves, a lot of times I just practice making the backspin as heavy as I can because it is easy for me to change it to more side or top. And it is easy for me to make it less spin. So, there is a certain amount of serve practice where I just try to work on the touch to make the spin as heavy as possible. These serves when I am trying to serve as heavy as possible invariably end up being half long. Handbreaker length (second bounce right near the edge) is invariably useful.

Then there is short. I have a very easy time making serves fast and long. So I feel there is more value to practicing the touch of making a serve short and low than making it long. That touch, that control is very valuable to practice. Being able to serve short and dead, short and spinny is very useful.

When a real person is on the other side there are certain tells that it is worth being able to read. Some people will to receive with BH. Some will want to receive with FH. Being able to read that info, serve by serve, will help you with how to place your serves. So, to me, talking about placement of serves without a player on the other side is harder. Because you can't really aim at a player's switching point without the player. That being said, placing targets on the other side and being able to hit your target is good practice too.

Another thing I am going to say is: when I am playing someone, if I have a serve that my opponent consistently pushes, I am going to use that basic serve and vary the amount of spin over and over. Because, if I can get someone to push, for the most part, it means I will open. And that is how I want to start a point. When I play higher level players, it still doesn't mean I will win the point. But I have a much better chance to win a point if I open the attack. Against a player my level, if I open, I will win 75% of the points or more. So, against a higher level player, part of my goal is not to give the opponent the attack. Against a lower level player my main goal with my serves is to get a ball back that I can tee off on.

The last thing I will say about serving practice: there is a value to doing some serve practice right onto the floor without a table so you can really focus on spin and watch how the spin affects the bounce when the ball lands.

To some up serve practice:
1) heavy spin practice
2) short placement practice
3) spin variation
4) target practice
5) practice with and without the table
6) when you have a person there, try to read the player to see where he is expecting the serve and which wing he wants to take the serve with.

I think that sums up what I have to offer.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Everyone said a lot of great stuff.

Gene looks like he wants to get somewhere in a really short time while working out the strategic things.

In order to make spin variation, one must actually have heavy spin (or a damn good appearance of it) and very light to no spin to have that wide range or variation. That means showing your opponent some really heavy underspin. You establish that your first chance, then go from there.

In order to make it work, the other player has to THINK the change in spin isn't happening, or at least to the degree it is. That means your serve motion must be smooth and fluid and look the same for each spin. That requires some timing and touch.

It is also possible to fool someone on how deep or shallow you are serving. That means you gotta be able to serve both short and deep. Just off end is good change too. To be able to fool anyone, that means you gotta have some control over your depth. That requires touch and timing.

These are all great things to work towards improving over time, but no one really makes instant gains. 3 months, however, is a lot of time and a good deal of progress can be made towards those strategic goals. Some thought and execution can also result in some near term improvement in this in an area.

The simplest to execute for newer (or returning players) is FAST and DEEP serves. The serve motion is fast. The ball moves fast. There is little time for opponent to figure stuff out. If the placement is right, he has to move AND read the ball AND make a return, which is likely gunna be long, just right to get into a fast rally or make the first decisive fast attack. You might get some errors.

This has the biggest bang for the buck at first. A couple weeks of practice getting the motion, impact and blade angles right can get a player to do alright with those. These SUDDEN and FAST/DEEP serves are WAY more effective when the player can serve short at will (and also vary the spin, placement, and keep it low enough)

Being able to serve short or half long takes a lot more time to get the timing and touch down, but a lot of progress can happen in three months.

I recommend AGAINST starting out at the table to learn short underspin serves. WHY? A player who doesn't serve short doesn't have the touch and the blade angle to do it without nearly stopping the blade before impact for a weak dead serve that is obvious. I see player after player struggle to learn of make any progress doing it this way. The most common error is to NOT have blade parallel to ground at impact. Players who do this NEVER fix this at the table, even after months of trying. They are too worried about getting ALL the stuff of the serve perfect and it isn't gunna happen.

The important things to be able to get right are the blade angle at impact (completely under the ball at the bottom) the swing direction (completely forward), the timing of the swing to target, the timing of the moving parts of the arm/wrist, and the touch - this is the grip and the ability to accelerate the bat in a very short distance. The object is to get the ball to penetrate the topsheet, and while wrapped by topsheet, accelerate bat and fling it out.

I recommend a layered approach in steps. After learning the basic breakdown of how to use the arm (use short forward swing, stop upper arm at a point and hinge lower arm on elbow to move forward,, then use a little wrist right before and during impact)... after learning the basics there are a few ways to do progressive exercises before going to the table.

First step is an exercise that promotes a very simple forward swing void of many moving points and works the barebones essentials. You stand up on an area away from the table. A hallway, and open room, or at teh club away from the table, behind the table wherever. You do a ball toss head height, have the upper arm already moved forward to teh target impact zone, (lower arm is back some), and swing forward with a totally open blade parallel to floor and impact ball using mostly lower arm, use more wrist as timing and feel develop. You are trying to send ball out 1-2 meters with underspin, then make it spin back to you. This works the basics of mechanics, timing, and touch. There is no better way I have found to start out to develop this at the early stages. DO THIS DRILL 15 MINUTES a DAY. You will be a lot better and discover/reinforce proper blade angle at impact and the mechanics/timing/touch/acceleration... you will grow 10x faster doing this than learning at the table where there are too many things to worry about at first to focus on the basic important stuff - mechanics / blade angle at impact / timing. The acceleration and touch will improve much faster when you get the mechanics / swing plane / blade angle right. They will improve with more practice if you can get the foundation. Getting the right motion and impact to result in heavy spin are the goals, not the height control - that comes later.

Doing that even half-azz can take month or more. DO NOT GET DISCOURAGED. No one, I mean NO ONE failed at this more than I did at first.

Next stage is to practice a bit off the table. You stand a meter or more behind the table then you do the same thing, but you are flinging the ball forward to land on your side, then the other, then spin back on your side. You are letting this thing bounce really high. That is OK. At this point, you are simply trying to make heavy spin and get the impact and mechanics right. height control is not important yet. You are trying to show yourself you can make heavy spin at will and make it bounce on both sides, while you are overall getting better at your mechanics striking the BOTTOM of the ball with a short forwards swing and improving the timing/touch.

This also takes a goodly amount of time, a month or more to get to the table.

Once you are at the table, a progressive approach is also good. DO NOT WORRY about height control. You are simply practicing getting the basics of your swing and impact right... or right enough while improving over time. You should get right up to the table at your BH corner, do the ball toss to head or higher height, and use a short forward stroke to impact the bottom of the ball with better lower arm and some wrist. Aim for a little past half way to the net for first bounce. Let the ball bounce high, it is OK at this point. You want to grow your basic mechanics with a ball toss close to the table... don't sweat the rest of the stuff.

This is a minimum of a few weeks. Don't worry about being perfect, just strive to improve the ball toss, timing of the mechanics, the blade angle parallel to ground, the timing/touch of the impact, and the general area of the first bounce. You are serving it high, and ghosting it back t the net. Once you can ghost it back to the net and sometimes make it bounce back to you coming back OVER the net, you are ready to try it out at combat speed.

At this stage, you are trying one by one to get the other fine point stuff down - because you have the basics down, this is easy stuff over time to improve. Not easy at first, but you will see progress if you got the basics down. Try out different first bounce points, but stay in the same general zone of just past halfway to net. Do not worry about being super low over net, this comes with more reps and developing better touch and timing if your mechanics are right. LOOSE grip is uber important, so are loose muscles to make the whip. Once you get the hang of it, you will see it is WAY easier to make short serves with the tip of the bat pointed down to make side/under spin.

Later on, months down the road, you can learn how to impact the ball WITHOUT much acceleration (to make a dead ball or a very light ball) and immediately and naturally follow through with acceleration real smooth to fool opponents making them think you made a heavy serve, but it was a HEAVY NO-SPIN.

Once you get to that point, all kind of doors will open for you on serve and 3rd ball.

More on all this stuff later. Those are the basic concepts and way to go at it with a plan to make good progress in 3-4 months with only 15-20 minutes of practice a day.

I had only 3-5 minutes of practice a day for a year on one of my Iraq trips to a camp, I improved 200 points USATT rating upon returning home without much match practice.
 
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Awesome post D_E! My least favorite serve to receive is short no spin/sidespin to my forehand. I have trouble pushing it with enough spin to make the server's attack difficult and my form isn't good enough to generate sufficient hand speed for an attack that's worth anything. As I get better though, that should improve and the next worst serve for me to receive is a righty's pendulum serve to my wide forehand (I'm left handed). If they can get good underspin and good speed on it I have a hard time taking it over the table and have to step around the corner, so lifting it over with side/top loop is all I can do. Usually that shot goes high and they hit to wide BH after and I'm toast.
 
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Thanks for the feedback so far. I have a lot to work on. I think currently my biggest problem was not keeping the blade parallel to the table/floor. I do need to work on my touch. I can put out a deadball serve but I can't back it up with heavy spin for the contrast and they can anticipate the dead ball.
 
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You don't necessarily need heavy spin unless you want to win the point outright. You always make it more or less dead and get the third ball to attack. Infact well placed dead ball is the most difficult to attack. While you work on your touch , make the most of what you can already do
Thanks for the feedback so far. I have a lot to work on. I think currently my biggest problem was not keeping the blade parallel to the table/floor. I do need to work on my touch. I can put out a deadball serve but I can't back it up with heavy spin for the contrast and they can anticipate the dead ball.
 
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If you don't like when somebody flick at you, you do need a heavy backspin serve. Otherwise oneday you will play someone with a good flick, and it can be very frustrating if your opponent can attack your "safe" serve over and over.
 
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Five days a week this is my practice partner so it is difficult to get opinion about how much spin I am placing on the serves Jennie guarding the equipment.jpg All this feedback is a big help. I was practicing earlier and the horizontal blade placement really helped me get the spin going.
 
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I serve into the net on purpose to see the spin. But there is a Brett Clarke video where he puts a little plastic basket on the table and serves into it. And that is pretty good for seeing the spin.

But that is one of the things that is nice to see when you serve on the floor, how much the spin affects the bounce is easy to judge.
 
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Yes, I have been targeting a small box on the table similar to the video and if I can get the ball to stay on/ stop on the table when attempting short chop serves then I feel that one is a success and try to duplicate the feel I had when I hit it.
 
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Yes, but I don't think you need to have a ghost serve to ensure you have a lot of spin. At our level a heavy serve that goes through a little bit more than ghost serve is good enough as long as the third bounce is near the baseline or just after. I don't think people can read the difference between shorter half long and longer half long that well unless you are pretty advanced in serve receive.
Yes, I have been targeting a small box on the table similar to the video and if I can get the ball to stay on/ stop on the table when attempting short chop serves then I feel that one is a success and try to duplicate the feel I had when I hit it.
 
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