Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[Lowday20298]

I keep seeing on many forums people that hate lp's and want them banned. They think that they have an unfair advantage and that they require no skill to use.

Personally I've played against many lp blockers and defenders and I've never had an issue.

So why do so many people hate them? Are they that bad that they can't understand what to do against them, or are they just stupid?

I honestly can't understand what's going on in their heads. It's standardised equipment, maybe I would understand it if it was boosting in the question or hiding serves, but to me this just seems ridiculous and lazy from their part and not wanting to practice and study about them.

 

[TensorBackhand]

LP doesn't provide a permanent advantage. If it did, you would see the top 10 littered with LP players. However, what it does provide is a type of "asymmetric capability".

For example, a rank 150 player might have a 2% chance of beating WCQ. But a rank 150 with LP might have a 5% chance of beating WCQ if they can't adjust to that style. But LP players within their own team or circle might fair significantly worse because "the cat is out of the bag", or their secret is not so secret. So there's no permanent advantage, but it often throws a curveball into the matchup. LP is like insider trading. It only works if the vast majority of the other traders are not doing it. If everybody was doing insider trading, then it would take away its own advantage.

To me, LP is unfair for a number of reasons.
1) LP is significantly different in spin, speed, rhythm, bounce, everything. It is literally a completely different sport. A racketball player would have an easier time switching to pickelball than somebody playing against LP for their first time without any prior study. The first time I ever played pickelball, it took me about 4-5 hits to adjust to the rebound. But then afterwards I was destroying all these regular pickelball players with ease, simply because I already had a tennis background. And pickelball isn't too hard anyways. In other words, playing against LP has more distance to inverted rubber than pickeball does to racketball.

2) Before you prepare for a tournament, its' natural that you prepare against conventional topspin. How would you know if you need to prepare for a LP player? If you find out your next opponent is a LP player, you might have 1 day, or potentially just hours to prepare. This amount of time is nowhere near enough. This is why there is an apparent asymmetric capability of LP.

3) As an athlete, you have trained your eye to watch your opponents swing. If he pushes under the ball, your intuition and reflex is that this ball will be underspin. But with LP, somehow it produces topspin. To me, this is unfair. It's unfair that LP players basically only need to read one spin pattern, but their opponents need to be prepared for multiple.

4) If LP is considered "fair", then why not just follow this logic to its logical conclusion? Why not more variations of LP with harder and softer pips, shorter and longer pips, LP/SP combinations on the same rubber, special angled pips, etc. Does LP have to be made with rubber? Are their other materials that could potentially mess with the spin more and more? There's literally no end to the potential combination monstrosity of rubbers you could create. Obviously ITTF doesn't want the game to be SO junky and random that it is unenjoyable. But I would say LP is already junky enough.

Also I don't think LP should be totally banned. But to me, the main event of the tournament should be an even playing field and everybody should use rubber that gives the same natural spin.

 

[kapahoo]

It's just not fun. Playing LP is not the reason you go to training sessions and games.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It's just not fun. Playing LP is not the reason you go to training sessions and games.

not fun for you, but fun for the other person? hehe

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

2) Before you prepare for a tournament, its' natural that you prepare against conventional topspin. How would you know if you need to prepare for a LP player? If you find out your next opponent is a LP player, you might have 1 day, or potentially just hours to prepare. This amount of time is nowhere near enough. This is why there is an apparent asymmetric capability of LP.

The training is about reading spin and generating spin
if you can't read or generate spin, then you will loose to anyone, not just LP players

3) As an athlete, you have trained your eye to watch your opponents swing. If he pushes under the ball, your intuition and reflex is that this ball will be underspin. But with LP, somehow it produces topspin. To me, this is unfair. It's unfair that LP players basically only need to read one spin pattern, but their opponents need to be prepared for multiple.

you train to read spin
think about reading serves (if you are able to).
Same swing could be top or underspin

unfair = your shortcomings or unfair??

Also I don't think LP should be totally banned. But to me, the main event of the tournament should be an even playing field and everybody should use rubber that gives the same natural spin.

same natural spin?
where is brokenball? rubbers don't generate spin, the person using the rubber does.

there is nothing natural about any inverted rubber to any other inverted rubbers (arc, speed/spin etc)
So you can't even have 2 of the same inverted rubbers, you want to set rules for??
should just move over to hardbats if you want the same rackets.

Table tennis is what it is today because of spin and the different styles.

 

[Lowday20298]

What I get from all this is that people that don't like lp's are lazy and don't want to learn anything new or put in some work to beat them. They always want a push to have downspin, yet they fail to realise that lp's bring some of the only variety in the game.

 

[Johnniedarko]

[...]

Also I don't think LP should be totally banned. But to me, the main event of the tournament should be an even playing field and everybody should use rubber that gives the same natural spin.

Your big underlying argument is: everybody must have the same equipment for a fair measurement of skill. This is a fair opinion but there's only one logical endpoint: everybody uses the same bat and rubber.

I'd argue that the choice to use LP
is part of the strategy of the game. As such TT is more than just a skill measurement and about in-game tactics, but also over long term strategy. As an inverted user, the choice to learn about LP or not is also part of your strategy.

As a newcomer, this extra layer of strategy made the sport more interesting to me. (I already regularly play padel, sometimes tennis and squash)

The only thing that the ITTF needs to do and keep doing, is to make sure all options are reasonably balanced, so that there is actual choice. Rather than one option being best in most circumstances.

I could argue that offensive looping is so dominant that other play styles and materials aren't viable enough for true strategy. Imo, LP should probably become more powerful rather than less. But its difficult to balance a sport. In the board game of Go/Baduk/Weiqi, it took the regulatory body about 200 years, and data of millions of played games, to make the game equal (by deciding how many points advantage White should get over Black to compensate that Black starts). Video games have even more data and balance more quickly. TT on the other hand doesn't keep that kind of data (that I know of), so the balancing act will be slow to respond and innacurate.

 

[Lowday20298]

LP doesn't provide a permanent advantage. If it did, you would see the top 10 littered with LP players. However, what it does provide is a type of "asymmetric capability".

For example, a rank 150 player might have a 2% chance of beating WCQ. But a rank 150 with LP might have a 5% chance of beating WCQ if they can't adjust to that style. But LP players within their own team or circle might fair significantly worse because "the cat is out of the bag", or their secret is not so secret. So there's no permanent advantage, but it often throws a curveball into the matchup. LP is like insider trading. It only works if the vast majority of the other traders are not doing it. If everybody was doing insider trading, then it would take away its own advantage.

To me, LP is unfair for a number of reasons.
1) LP is significantly different in spin, speed, rhythm, bounce, everything. It is literally a completely different sport. A racketball player would have an easier time switching to pickelball than somebody playing against LP for their first time without any prior study. The first time I ever played pickelball, it took me about 4-5 hits to adjust to the rebound. But then afterwards I was destroying all these regular pickelball players with ease, simply because I already had a tennis background. And pickelball isn't too hard anyways. In other words, playing against LP has more distance to inverted rubber than pickeball does to racketball.

2) Before you prepare for a tournament, its' natural that you prepare against conventional topspin. How would you know if you need to prepare for a LP player? If you find out your next opponent is a LP player, you might have 1 day, or potentially just hours to prepare. This amount of time is nowhere near enough. This is why there is an apparent asymmetric capability of LP.

3) As an athlete, you have trained your eye to watch your opponents swing. If he pushes under the ball, your intuition and reflex is that this ball will be underspin. But with LP, somehow it produces topspin. To me, this is unfair. It's unfair that LP players basically only need to read one spin pattern, but their opponents need to be prepared for multiple.

4) If LP is considered "fair", then why not just follow this logic to its logical conclusion? Why not more variations of LP with harder and softer pips, shorter and longer pips, LP/SP combinations on the same rubber, special angled pips, etc. Does LP have to be made with rubber? Are their other materials that could potentially mess with the spin more and more? There's literally no end to the potential combination monstrosity of rubbers you could create. Obviously ITTF doesn't want the game to be SO junky and random that it is unenjoyable. But I would say LP is already junky enough.

Also I don't think LP should be totally banned. But to me, the main event of the tournament should be an even playing field and everybody should use rubber that gives the same natural spin.

So should we ban pimples? Should we ban tacky rubbers because they are also different? Maybe hybrids as well? How about super soft rubbers? Maybe high tension rubbers?

It's all part of the game, get rid of one thing and then everything else will follow. We'll evolve backwards and end up like tennis.

Technological advancement is fueled by technical advancement and requirements of the pros. Get rid of technology and the game becomes stale.

 

[AndySmith]

I like TensorB's description of "asymmetric capability", a nice term that sums up the frustration many players have when they encounter LPs in the early stages of their development IMO.

Put simply (because what I take from this discussion - as often happens with this subject - is people love to point the finger and call other players "lazy") - not everyone has the same opportunity, or awareness, to train against LP because players who use them are in the minority. Lack of familiarity is the prime advantage LP players have - they present "common" (best not to use the word "normal" here I think) technique, but result in opposite spin results on the ball. In a sport where reaction times are low and high-speed, high-intensity training against "common" style players is the norm, preparing for this almost complete change of direction is not as easy as some make it out to be.

Once a player has enough experience against LP, they become a net disadvantage IMO. But gaining that experience can be tough, you might not be lucky enough to have a practice partner who uses them, or a coach who is prepared to train you against them (people guard their "dark arts" closely). I don't think it's particularly fair to label all players without that experience as lazy, or stupid.

Personally - I like the variety LP, MP, SP brings. But I also recognise the annoyance their use brings, especially for developing players. Getting juniors over this hurdle is something we all can (and should?) help with for several reasons - keeping players in the game, ensuring pip-out rubbers stay legal, encouraging older players to stay playing, improving awareness of spin and spin manipulation. But there's a difference between supporting players who are struggling, and just having a go at them and calling them lazy, which shows a kind of laziness itself if you ask me. Help players where you can please, don't just criticize them. I keep a cheapo SP and LP bat in my bag for this reason - if players at my club want to discuss and experiment against them, I'm always ready and happy to do so.

 

[Hyooong]

Hey, they might be irritating to play against initially, but the victory over a LP player is all the more sweet

 

[Lowday20298]

I like TensorB's description of "asymmetric capability", a nice term that sums up the frustration many players have when they encounter LPs in the early stages of their development IMO.

Put simply (because what I take from this discussion - as often happens with this subject - is people love to point the finger and call other players "lazy") - not everyone has the same opportunity, or awareness, to train against LP because players who use them are in the minority. Lack of familiarity is the prime advantage LP players have - they present "common" (best not to use the word "normal" here I think) technique, but result in opposite spin results on the ball. In a sport where reaction times are low and high-speed, high-intensity training against "common" style players is the norm, preparing for this almost complete change of direction is not as easy as some make it out to be.

Once a player has enough experience against LP, they become a net disadvantage IMO. But gaining that experience can be tough, you might not be lucky enough to have a practice partner who uses them, or a coach who is prepared to train you against them (people guard their "dark arts" closely). I don't think it's particularly fair to label all players without that experience as lazy, or stupid.

Personally - I like the variety LP, MP, SP brings. But I also recognise the annoyance their use brings, especially for developing players. Getting juniors over this hurdle is something we all can (and should?) help with for several reasons - keeping players in the game, ensuring pip-out rubbers stay legal, encouraging older players to stay playing, improving awareness of spin and spin manipulation. But there's a difference between supporting players who are struggling, and just having a go at them and calling them lazy, which shows a kind of laziness itself if you ask me. Help players where you can please, don't just criticize them. I keep a cheapo SP and LP bat in my bag for this reason - if players at my club want to discuss and experiment against them, I'm always ready and happy to do so.

Well said, but I still think that it's fair play to use pips.

 

[igorponger]

LAMENTABLE LIFE STORY. AN ANTI PLAYER HAS BEEN TREATED AS A DAMNED OUTCAST WITH CLUBMATES.

Yes, most people do feel strongly against LP and ANTI players either.

JUST A FRIENDLY HINT.
Pay the people some money remuneration. Money is a great persuader, you must know. 💰🍻

Rubber backside like an anti-top - OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hello, I've been playing table tennis for around ten years in a small club that only had a coach for 3 years because it's expensive. Despite the training,

ooakforum.com

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I hate Pips because I can't win them.

I will stop hating pips when I can beat them.

In the mean time; rage against the pips continues.

 

[AndySmith]

Well said, but I still think that it's fair play to use pips.

Yup, I agree with that.

These things tend to reach a balance over time - people test the limits of the rules and the rules respond. For example, I agree with the need for the banning of frictionless pips, and also with the max sponge thickness for reverse rubbers. Within the current framework. it's all fair play IMO (I'm not a fan of the ban on boosters, but it's a tricky subject).

Maybe we take different views on this as we get older. 16 year old me really didn't like LP. 47 year old me sees a different side of the story where many older players remain competitive and stay in the sport, partly based on equipment options. It takes time to gain the experience to play effectively against pips, and also to gain a wider perspective across the sport.

 

[Silver smasher]

I find players either use long pips to extend their club and local league playing careers or because they enjoy winning by seeing other players getting annoyed.
That's why Long Pips rubbers are called things like Frustration, Upsetting and Annoying.
What angers me is that at local league level LP players can win matches by just blocking every ball. A skilled attacker has got to forget about spinny serves, aggressive topspins or clever flicks and learn to play a boring and tedious series of pushes.

 

[Lowday20298]

Yup, I agree with that.

These things tend to reach a balance over time - people test the limits of the rules and the rules respond. For example, I agree with the need for the banning of frictionless pips, and also with the max sponge thickness for reverse rubbers. Within the current framework. it's all fair play IMO (I'm not a fan of the ban on boosters, but it's a tricky subject).

Maybe we take different views on this as we get older. 16 year old me really didn't like LP. 47 year old me sees a different side of the story where many older players remain competitive and stay in the sport, partly based on equipment options. It takes time to gain the experience to play effectively against pips, and also to gain a wider perspective across the sport.

I think all is fair, use what you want and find a way to beat the ones that give you trouble. I don't have an issue with boosters either, it's not like it's some rare thing and getting it is hard, falco for example is available everywhere. Speed glue I do agree with because it does use harmful materials.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I like TensorB's description of "asymmetric capability", a nice term that sums up the frustration many players have when they encounter LPs in the early stages of their development IMO.

Put simply (because what I take from this discussion - as often happens with this subject - is people love to point the finger and call other players "lazy") - not everyone has the same opportunity, or awareness, to train against LP because players who use them are in the minority. Lack of familiarity is the prime advantage LP players have - they present "common" (best not to use the word "normal" here I think) technique, but result in opposite spin results on the ball. In a sport where reaction times are low and high-speed, high-intensity training against "common" style players is the norm, preparing for this almost complete change of direction is not as easy as some make it out to be.

Once a player has enough experience against LP, they become a net disadvantage IMO. But gaining that experience can be tough, you might not be lucky enough to have a practice partner who uses them, or a coach who is prepared to train you against them (people guard their "dark arts" closely). I don't think it's particularly fair to label all players without that experience as lazy, or stupid.

Personally - I like the variety LP, MP, SP brings. But I also recognise the annoyance their use brings, especially for developing players. Getting juniors over this hurdle is something we all can (and should?) help with for several reasons - keeping players in the game, ensuring pip-out rubbers stay legal, encouraging older players to stay playing, improving awareness of spin and spin manipulation. But there's a difference between supporting players who are struggling, and just having a go at them and calling them lazy, which shows a kind of laziness itself if you ask me. Help players where you can please, don't just criticize them. I keep a cheapo SP and LP bat in my bag for this reason - if players at my club want to discuss and experiment against them, I'm always ready and happy to do so.

The same can be said for cpen players.
if you don't have the luxury to train with them, you can't really blame them when you can't adapt in a match to one.

I think with that, one can link it to everything - ie you don't have anyone who has world class serves and until the day you meet one, you will know that if you had that luxury, then maybe it would be a closer contest.
I think that is sports at the end of the day.

If things are within the agreed playing conditions, then it is each athletes task to adapt and compete.
Leave the votes to those not wearing TT attires (suites) and the ones wearing TT attires should just try and fine means and ways to accept and adapt.

Because from what I have experience in sports, it will never be fair, just like this

From a junior developing point of view, few using them, then they could be unfamiliar to many.
But more and more could want to take that "advantage", like what Taiwan done, which is too over in terms of girls in the U10~U13 space.
But the positive of that, the kids all grow up knowing how to handle LP

 

[Ultravisitor]

I find players either use long pips to extend their club and local league playing careers or because they enjoy winning by seeing other players getting annoyed.
That's why Long Pips rubbers are called things like Frustration, Upsetting and Annoying.
What angers me is that at local league level LP players can win matches by just blocking every ball. A skilled attacker has got to forget about spinny serves, aggressive topspins or clever flicks and learn to play a boring and tedious series of pushes.

I disagree with the last statement, first you can't "just win" by blocking every ball, same can be true if you play a blocking Playstyle with inverted rubber. Also you can't "just" push without attacking, that's not how pips work.
LPs are so easy to abuse, it's really hard to play good with them especially if you rely on "just blocking" every ball.
I'll get It's counterintuitive, but there's nothing magical about them. A fast topspin is still hard to block close to the table.
Serve long underpin into the pips and be happy about an slow topspin ball to attack.

 

[TensorBackhand]

This is the direction our sport needs to go in

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Me minding my own business happily looping to my heart's content:

Then came LP blocker to spoil my day:

Ban the pips! Ban the pips!