WTT Champions Frankfurt 2024

[pongfugrasshopper]

This is a great point. Good example of this is Ding Ning's tomahawk serve. In real time it looks like she tosses the ball well over the 16cm minimum. In slow motion, she's actually just tossing it sideways and dropping her hand. There's almost no vertical travel from her palm whatsoever. Here's a good video with slow mo that analyzes it:

It's incredibly hard to discern this in real time, creates an optical illusion that fools everyone not watching closely, and is definitely illegal. So the ref that faults this serve requires not only great observational skills, but also a lot of bravery since she got raked over the coals harshly by everyone with calls for her to be fired and shamed.

This is something that VAR would probably easily spot, and whatever technology that shows the path of the ball with a graphic would make these sorts of fault uncontroversial since viewers would immediately understand the problem.

It'll probably never happen so instead we get an arms race where players devise clever ways of making illegal serves look very legal, then get upset when it's called. I suppose toss height violations do mess with the timing of the receiver somewhat. But I'm not sure if the advantage given to the server is significant at all in comparison to outright hidden serves. So I also think it's a worrying trend that there have been more faults due to toss height and angle lately instead of hiddenness.

Actually, I think the video shows that she does toss it at least 6 inches, and you can see this if you go frame by frame (use the period button to go forward and comma button to go backwards). Six inches is not much ... It's about the height of the net. You can drop your hand as long as the ball doesn't go below the table.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

if you could have a Birds Eye view, you would see it is angle exceeding 16degreees (or whatever the toss angle is)

The bird's eye view is not a good angle to judge service from. Her serve is far more vertical than most pendulum serves where players are tossing the ball backwards and more than the 30 degrees from vertical.

 

[Lazer]

This is a great point. Good example of this is Ding Ning's tomahawk serve. In real time it looks like she tosses the ball well over the 16cm minimum. In slow motion, she's actually just tossing it sideways and dropping her hand. There's almost no vertical travel from her palm whatsoever. Here's a good video with slow mo that analyzes it:

It's incredibly hard to discern this in real time, creates an optical illusion that fools everyone not watching closely, and is definitely illegal. So the ref that faults this serve requires not only great observational skills, but also a lot of bravery since she got raked over the coals harshly by everyone with calls for her to be fired and shamed.

This is something that VAR would probably easily spot, and whatever technology that shows the path of the ball with a graphic would make these sorts of fault uncontroversial since viewers would immediately understand the problem.

It'll probably never happen so instead we get an arms race where players devise clever ways of making illegal serves look very legal, then get upset when it's called. I suppose toss height violations do mess with the timing of the receiver somewhat. But I'm not sure if the advantage given to the server is significant at all in comparison to outright hidden serves. So I also think it's a worrying trend that there have been more faults due to toss height and angle lately instead of hiddenness.

I don’t see a problem with height and from my point view the doesn’t start until she moved the hand all the way to the right. Then the toss has angle yes but not worse than others…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[NetProphet]

Still, germans need to be schooled by french and swedish fans to make more noise and provide better support for their local athletes. After Montpellier the atmosphere was quite disapointing really, I had to push down the volume on the streams 2 weeks ago, there it was not the case.

You're too harsh and off the mark with regard to this. Your stinging criticism is beginning to seem a bot ott v Germany?
Duda, Walther etc got great support from those in attendance, the arena just wasn't full and I'd personally blame the WTT for that. The event wasn't cheap to attend and wasn't well promoted.
After Montpellier almost everything is going to seem disappointing but Montpellier was an outlier for reasons that you already know.
If you're gonna compare it then at least compare it fairly with other circuit events.

The crowd should have been all red yellow and black all week long.

As for you telling an entire audience what they SHOULD be, that's a bit ridiculous and somewhat arrogant.
If you feel this strongly about the noise and colour then why not go yourself and add to it?
WTT have a good event here that needs a bit more work to fill more seats I would say.

End of the day the event should be judged on facts.
There should be a way to get more bums on seats and they really have to look at that.
Otherwise make it a shorter 16 player tournament and srart it Thursday cos who's gonna take a week off work to watch TT every day at 2pm?
Don't screen live on YouTube? That's not exactly enticing anyone to go.
Judging on facts it's a success with things that can be improved.
There was nothing wrong with the atmosphere in Thursday evening and all day Friday and the weekend will be the same

 

[lodro]

In slow motion, she's actually just tossing it sideways and dropping her hand. There's almost no vertical travel from her palm whatsoever. Here's a good video with slow mo that analyzes it:

We must have different eyes because i see her clearly tossing it UP to the height of her face.
Admittedly I am wearing the "roes-pink glasses" which appear on my face automatically whenever I see Ding Ning.

 

[backspacer]

Well, just back from 2 days at the Frankfurt Champions event. What can I say except what an arena, what a lineup and what a crowd, the entire thing was absolutely brilliant!
It's a shame about how empty the hall was earlier in the week and I hope they can address that somehow for next yr but the atmosphere once it filled up on Thursday and Friday evening was really great.
And the matches weren't bad either, even though I had to wait until Friday afternoon for the first 5 setter in Hugo V LYJ. Not surprisingly the last 16 games were more one sided with predictable 3-0 and 3-1 scorelines.
Seeing these players do their stuff live and in the flesh is absolutely incredible, the speed, power, athleticism and technique all unwrapped right in front of your eyes is really something else!
Lin Shidong was possibly the most impressive he was imperious V Duda and Matsushima and somehow seemed a split second quicker and a few mm more accurate that everyone else. His semi V LYJ should be a cracker, especially if LYJ can step it up to match his level of last year!
Sorry I'm not there for SF day but will definitely go again next year, it's too good not to take in some of it when the opportunity arises.
I have to check out the possibility of visiting more events in Europe next yr.
I didn't take many pictures but here's one of the arena from my seat, it was so close to the table I managed to get 2 match balls as souvenirs! 😉
Thanks again Frankfurt, here's to a great 2 more days!

Wait, did you get VIP Platinum tickets?

 

[NetProphet]

Wait, did you get VIP Platinum tickets?

We did. Given that we only go to one event this year we blew the entire budget on it 😂
Cheap flights and accommodation helped too but overall with better seats and all the beer and food you wanted available all day in the lounge I reckon it was worth it. Given how much I'd have spent on food and drink anyway it probably had a €50 per day premium over the next best tickets 😬
The lounge is class tho and we met Timo Boll, Liam Pitchford and saw many other players wandering around in that part of the arena which kinda added to the magic of it all. Passed WCQ in the hall, he's taller than I'd imagined!
Might not be able to do it again but I definitely recommend it as an experience if you can manage it just once.

 

[NextLevel]

This is a great point. Good example of this is Ding Ning's tomahawk serve. In real time it looks like she tosses the ball well over the 16cm minimum. In slow motion, she's actually just tossing it sideways and dropping her hand. There's almost no vertical travel from her palm whatsoever. Here's a good video with slow mo that analyzes it:

It's incredibly hard to discern this in real time, creates an optical illusion that fools everyone not watching closely, and is definitely illegal. So the ref that faults this serve requires not only great observational skills, but also a lot of bravery since she got raked over the coals harshly by everyone with calls for her to be fired and shamed.

This is something that VAR would probably easily spot, and whatever technology that shows the path of the ball with a graphic would make these sorts of fault uncontroversial since viewers would immediately understand the problem.

It'll probably never happen so instead we get an arms race where players devise clever ways of making illegal serves look very legal, then get upset when it's called. I suppose toss height violations do mess with the timing of the receiver somewhat. But I'm not sure if the advantage given to the server is significant at all in comparison to outright hidden serves. So I also think it's a worrying trend that there have been more faults due to toss height and angle lately instead of hiddenness.

When the ball toss is lower, the angle of incidence of the server in generating spin and ball flight is different. The server can generate ball trajectories that would be harder to do if the ball were tossed higher. Tosses into the racket create forward rebound and easier topspin for example that would be harder to create on serves that imparted topspin with higher tosses, ttge main offset is that most of the truly challenging aerves tend to drift long. Obviously hiding the serve is hard to beat for an advantage. Reading low toss serves can also be impossibly difficult as well but the fact most of the serves are long tends to offset this at the higher levels.

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

LYJ is fighting but LSD is everywhere all at once

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

The rally at 11-10

 

[latej]

LSD is everywhere all at once

The LSD, the quantum mechanical ;-)

 

[NetProphet]

The rally at 11-10

The rally at 3-2 was arguably even better but you're right, some of this stuff is just insane quality!!!

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

The second set was LYJs best chance at making it competitive.
Down 0-3 against LSD is now a terrible spot to be in.

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

Seems like LSD will be LYJs archnemesis for some time.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

It almost seems unfair that China gets players like Ma Long, FZD, LSD to fill in the generations 😂 . Well, at least we haven't yet seen on the women's side anyone to fill the gap after SYS/WMY.

 

[Robin0910]

Seems like LSD will be LYJs archnemesis for some time.

He’s like everybody‘s arch nemesis though he’s that good

 

[zeio]

Moral of the story:
Whoever wins WTT CS in Europe would become cursed. True for Harimoto, true for LYJ and gonna be true for F. Leburn as well?

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-2024-vs-2025.35397/post-489007

Likewise, LYJ's 4th place finish stole the spotlight after Tokyo 2020 whereas Harimoto's R16 finish became a meme. 3 years later, LYJ is way behind Harimoto now. LYJ became a favorite for Paris 2024 after winning WTT CS Frankfurt 2023 and what happened next? He couldn't even secure top 4 seeding in MS for Paris 2024 whereas Harimoto hard-carried JPN to the 4th seed in MT at the last minute. Remember that Harimoto also won WTT CS Budapest 2022 (part of the European Summer Series) and then hit a snag in the whole of 2023 and much of 2024. Therefore, Felix winning WTT CS Montpellier 2024 should be treated with caution.

 

[NetProphet]

Thinking about the quality in that match, I reckon anyone else would have been hammered.
The 3rd set was a walloping but to get 9,11 and 8 points in the other three sets was some achievement!
LSD was just unplayable today 🤷

 

[rpb23]

We must have different eyes because i see her clearly tossing it UP to the height of her face.
Admittedly I am wearing the "roes-pink glasses" which appear on my face automatically whenever I see Ding Ning.

My eyes agree with you. A very clean serve in my view, no hidden(the most sin in illegal serves) at all.

 

[Robin0910]

WYD finally found an answer to Miwa Harimoto. It was just a matter of time really