WTT Champions Frankfurt 2024

[zeio]

It's not a cost thing. The technology unfortunately affirms too many things we know about bad serves... it faults Ma Long...

And the ump faulted Boll but the TTR overruled it. Very bad impression on the ump and the sport. They need to figure out how to handle service faults before putting TTR back on the table. For the time being, TTR should be limited to edge calls and perhaps let calls.

 

[M51]

The big take away here is that Moregard ditched his creativity that had been holding him back.

That said, Moregardh played a fantastic tournament right up until the final where he seemed to have walked into a trap. Obviously, his gimmicky playing style won't work against every type of player, meaning he should learn to fall back to a more conservative, calculated type of game.

The self-indulgent entertainer that held him back seems to be getting under control. There's tactics in his game now.

He still has much maturing to do, though. Sky is the limit for this kid.

 

[passifid]

issi

The umpires on this circuit are a fu**ing disgrace and this needs to be said.

You cannot in good conscience make a call on the toss height unless the violation is blatantly egregious.

I've been an umpire for years (Croatian 1st division), haven't had the guts to make that call once.

Fu*** this shit.

If you're an upmire for years and have never called a serve I suspect its not the one at frankfurt who is doing badly at this.

If you dont have guts to enforce rules then do not complain when others try to clean up the mess of serve violations that we all know are in almost 100% of matches.

IMO it was clearly a fault. Very clearly tossed about 2 inches at most and lifted 80% of its height.

I would like umpires to call serves a lot more as honestly its just cheating especially against lefties its easy to get away with hiding the ball behind your body.

 

[igorponger]

Live long and learn as long. Take advice from a proficient umpire. No VAR apparatus needed.

 

[M51]

If you're an upmire for years and have never called a serve I suspect its not the one at frankfurt who is doing badly at this.

Don't worry, I retired, even though the governing authority urged me not to.

I did warn players about the toss height, they always complied. Faulting is another thing entirely, I never had a senior (not counting youth players) toss the ball so low that I could be certain it was below 16 centimeters.

 

[NextLevel]

There would be an adjustment period for the players, of course. It'd be shorter than you think.

EDIT: Just watched the replay, the toss really did look shady. Still no way to be 100% sure.

The umpire is allowed to dault shady tosses per the rules. Now Ma Long seems close to retirement, there might be a chance. The reality is that people may not like what happens to the quality of serve return once hidden or dodgy serves are no longer possible. Returners have a lot of techniques that place the server under pressure these days.

 

[FIXPOINT]

WTT Champions Frankfurt 2024WS QF

 

[FIXPOINT]

WTT Champions Frankfurt 2024MS QF

 

[M51]

The umpire is allowed to dault shady tosses per the rules.

Yeah, the rule literally states:

It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.

Basically, if the umpire isn't fairly convinced the serve is legal, he is s free to assume it isn't, which is something I was never comfortable with, but it is what it is.

Speaking of which...

EDIT: One more thing. Here is the serve that Dima was faulted for at the ETTC:

Give me a break...

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah, the rule literally states:

It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.

Basically, if the umpire isn't fairly convinced the serve is legal, he is s free to assume it isn't, which is something I was never comfortable with, but it is what it is.

Speaking of which...

EDIT: One more thing. Here is the serve that Dima was faulted for at the ETTC:

Give me a break...

Ovtcharov usually has a significant backward toss regardless of height or reason given for the fault. But everyone is entitled to their own outrage. It's part of the reason why I don't discuss the serve rules too much because illegal and dodgy serving has been normalized to a point where an umpire trying to do their job gets criticized because there is no transparency in umpiring.

 

[M51]

Ovtcharov usually has a significant backward toss regardless of height or reason given for the fault. But everyone is entitled to their own outrage. It's part of the reason why I don't discuss the serve rules too much because illegal and dodgy serving has been normalized to a point where an umpire trying to do their job gets criticized because there is no transparency in umpiring.

You know, it's the double standard that gets to me.

Players get away with far worse, and yet, umpires make an example out of guys like Truls and Dima... What ever.

 

[Robin0910]

Yeah, the rule literally states:

It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.

Basically, if the umpire isn't fairly convinced the serve is legal, he is s free to assume it isn't, which is something I was never comfortable with, but it is what it is.

Speaking of which...

EDIT: One more thing. Here is the serve that Dima was faulted for at the ETTC:

Give me a break...

Problem is that he was lifting the ball up initially therefore the throw itself was not high enough. And as the umpire said it was also not vertical and he also threw it slightly backwards. It had multiple rule regulation strikes so I assume that’s why it was faulted at such a crucial moment.

 

[NextLevel]

You know, it's the double standard that gets to me.

Players get away with far worse, and yet, umpires make an example out of guys like Truls and Dima... What ever.

My point is that photoing the height without showing the whole serve especially when backward tosses raise the height requirements is bad form. In fact one of the easier things for umpires to judge which is relatively difficult for people to see on camera is backward tosses on serves where the server faces the table.

Truls is generally a legal server but Dima not so much. Regardless though, umpiring needs to become more transparent.

 

[PoppaChubby]

Yeah, the rule literally states:

It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.

Basically, if the umpire isn't fairly convinced the serve is legal, he is s free to assume it isn't, which is something I was never comfortable with, but it is what it is.

Speaking of which...

EDIT: One more thing. Here is the serve that Dima was faulted for at the ETTC:

Give me a break...

Yeah you're right seriously it's bananas since a while now, nobody wants the enforce the rules when it comes to WCQ or LSD but the europeans just have to suffer for nothing serious in silence.

Back in the "Golden Age" of table tennis with the "True GOAT" Waldner, Saive, Persson, Gatien, everybody was hidding the serves and nobody complained, you just had to toss the ball to a minimum height. And all the athletes were respecting each others, no drama, nothing, no youtube, no social medias, just table tennis (and a good beer with Jean-Mi after of course !).

I miss those days really, that's the reason why I don't play anymore competitions for a ranking whatsoever, I still hide my serves with other amateurs who don't toss to the minimum height and... we all have a beer right after still

 

[PoppaChubby]

Don't worry, I retired, even though the governing authority urged me not to.

I did warn players about the toss height, they always complied. Faulting is another thing entirely, I never had a senior (not counting youth players) toss the ball so low that I could be certain it was below 16 centimeters.

I once had someone who didn't care for the toss height, he went crazy, threatening me in front of the umpire in charge of the whole competition. He took a red card from the umpire. Since then I don't do any of those duties anymore, and stopped all competitions cos' it's mandatory to do it in team or singles competitions at a lower level.

I've got something else to worry at 61 now...

 

[PoppaChubby]

My post was referring to PoppaChubby's comment. Jorgic losing to lefties is nothing to write home about and has little bearing on his WR. He has not been lucky with the draws at Tokyo 2020 and Paris 2024, running into LYJ in the QF and R16, respectively.

Seriously, what "luck" has to do with that ? One day or another, when you are really strong enough, "luck" does not matter. The second time Darko had to play Felix, at home in Slovenia, was it bad luck ? no, he's been simply thrashed although in Muscat the year before he was thrashing Felix 3-0. He had the "luck" to face a young and not enough experienced player he had already defeated easily, and he lost.

When Alexis defeated FZD, nobody near me said before the match "ah... too bad he had to face him so soon in the competition, really Alexis has no luck" no, this is how you judge the mentally strong athletes. Bad luck is only for overrated players, it's an excuse for loosers.

Really... come on guys.

 

[NetProphet]

Well, just back from 2 days at the Frankfurt Champions event. What can I say except what an arena, what a lineup and what a crowd, the entire thing was absolutely brilliant!
It's a shame about how empty the hall was earlier in the week and I hope they can address that somehow for next yr but the atmosphere once it filled up on Thursday and Friday evening was really great.
And the matches weren't bad either, even though I had to wait until Friday afternoon for the first 5 setter in Hugo V LYJ. Not surprisingly the last 16 games were more one sided with predictable 3-0 and 3-1 scorelines.
Seeing these players do their stuff live and in the flesh is absolutely incredible, the speed, power, athleticism and technique all unwrapped right in front of your eyes is really something else!
Lin Shidong was possibly the most impressive he was imperious V Duda and Matsushima and somehow seemed a split second quicker and a few mm more accurate that everyone else. His semi V LYJ should be a cracker, especially if LYJ can step it up to match his level of last year!
Sorry I'm not there for SF day but will definitely go again next year, it's too good not to take in some of it when the opportunity arises.
I have to check out the possibility of visiting more events in Europe next yr.
I didn't take many pictures but here's one of the arena from my seat, it was so close to the table I managed to get 2 match balls as souvenirs! 😉
Thanks again Frankfurt, here's to a great 2 more days!

 

[turbozed]

My point is that photoing the height without showing the whole serve especially when backward tosses raise the height requirements is bad form. In fact one of the easier things for umpires to judge which is relatively difficult for people to see on camera is backward tosses on serves where the server faces the table.

Truls is generally a legal server but Dima not so much. Regardless though, umpiring needs to become more transparent.

This is a great point. Good example of this is Ding Ning's tomahawk serve. In real time it looks like she tosses the ball well over the 16cm minimum. In slow motion, she's actually just tossing it sideways and dropping her hand. There's almost no vertical travel from her palm whatsoever. Here's a good video with slow mo that analyzes it:

It's incredibly hard to discern this in real time, creates an optical illusion that fools everyone not watching closely, and is definitely illegal. So the ref that faults this serve requires not only great observational skills, but also a lot of bravery since she got raked over the coals harshly by everyone with calls for her to be fired and shamed.

This is something that VAR would probably easily spot, and whatever technology that shows the path of the ball with a graphic would make these sorts of fault uncontroversial since viewers would immediately understand the problem.

It'll probably never happen so instead we get an arms race where players devise clever ways of making illegal serves look very legal, then get upset when it's called. I suppose toss height violations do mess with the timing of the receiver somewhat. But I'm not sure if the advantage given to the server is significant at all in comparison to outright hidden serves. So I also think it's a worrying trend that there have been more faults due to toss height and angle lately instead of hiddenness.

 

[PoppaChubby]

Well, just back from 2 days at the Frankfurt Champions event. What can I say except what an arena, what a lineup and what a crowd, the entire thing was absolutely brilliant!
It's a shame about how empty the hall was earlier in the week and I hope they can address that somehow for next yr but the atmosphere once it filled up on Thursday and Friday evening was really great.
And the matches weren't bad either, even though I had to wait until Friday afternoon for the first 5 setter in Hugo V LYJ. Not surprisingly the last 16 games were more one sided with predictable 3-0 and 3-1 scorelines.
Seeing these players do their stuff live and in the flesh is absolutely incredible, the speed, power, athleticism and technique all unwrapped right in front of your eyes is really something else!
Lin Shidong was possibly the most impressive he was imperious V Duda and Matsushima and somehow seemed a split second quicker and a few mm more accurate that everyone else. His semi V LYJ should be a cracker, especially if LYJ can step it up to match his level of last year!
Sorry I'm not there for SF day but will definitely go again next year, it's too good not to take in some of it when the opportunity arises.
I have to check out the possibility of visiting more events in Europe next yr.
I didn't take many pictures but here's one of the arena from my seat, it was so close to the table I managed to get 2 match balls as souvenirs! 😉
Thanks again Frankfurt, here's to a great 2 more days!

Still, germans need to be schooled by french and swedish fans to make more noise and provide better support for their local athletes. After Montpellier the atmosphere was quite disapointing really, I had to push down the volume on the streams 2 weeks ago, there it was not the case. The crowd should have been all red yellow and black all week long.

 

[turbozed]

Still, germans need to be schooled by french and swedish fans to make more noise and provide better support for their local athletes. After Montpellier the atmosphere was quite disapointing really, I had to push down the volume on the streams 2 weeks ago, there it was not the case. The crowd should have been all red yellow and black all week long.

You've been spoiled as we all were by Montpelier. If you compare this event to all the other WTT events this year, it's probably in top 5 at least in terms of crowd noise and atmosphere.

Home crowd is a huge factor, and the more local it gets the more support is given. German fans aren't lacking in noise and support when it's a Bundesliga final. Guys like Qiu, Walther, and Duda just aren't at the national level of stars like Timo and Ovtcharov, so it's difficult to fake the enthusiasm. You saw the same thing with much less noise for lesser known French players like Pavade and Yuan in Montpelier.