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View Full Version : backhand with forehand side (orthodox grip)



violoniste18
10-03-2015, 04:38 AM
I went back to orthodox grip 6 months ago, it was too difficult for me on the backhand side with my violonist fingers (a bit too long)

I was looking for an orthodox but different style and found on youtube the player "Bogan" who played (et still play) with the same side forehand and backhand.

So i took my "inspiration" from this style, with some modifications, a more relaxed grip with my forefinger in supination and quite in the middle for the backhand, allowing me for backhand topspin. I have to work that a lot but my feeling is good and better with training.

And sorry for my english, I don't learn at school but started to improve it a year ago. The way is still very long ...

éric Bogan recently :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imjd9bNhQfM

and 24 years ago :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jyfC6EaBfA

allencorn
10-03-2015, 05:49 AM
Don't forget one thing that made Eric great was his use of anti and flipping and hitting and blocking with it. He was a master with that stuff.

violoniste18
10-03-2015, 06:44 AM
ak ok, i didn't know he played with anti-top and so I understand why i was always turning !

I Play too standard backhand with long pips and it's of course for increasing possibilities with backhand, mainly when the opponent plays without rotation towards my long pips

My level is between 13 and 14 in France (there is a lot of competitions in France, on could be playing every week), I am 55.

you are living in states, perhaps you saw eric bogan playing ?

Baal
10-03-2015, 08:58 AM
I saw him. He was one of two Americans who played versions of that style in the 1980s and early 1990s. The other was Dan Seemiller, who is actually is a little older. During part of that time you could use red rubber on both sides.

These two were actually the last American players who were capable of beating anyone in the world in their day, which is a sad commentary on American table tennis. The use of the anti-spin was a key part of the style because they could constantly change pace and trajectory of the ball . Dan was left handed and had a more powerful forehand and in some ways was more orthodox. Eric could hit an inside-out forehand very well and could attack a lot more with the anti. Both guys had really quick feet.

Their grip is not quite an orthodox grip. They index finger wraps around the blade in an unusual way I believe there was not too long ago one of the top Canadian women players who used that grip. But now, even in the US, it has almost disappeared.

violoniste18
10-03-2015, 09:55 AM
a very big thank you for these explications, I started to play table tennis a long time ago, but still interested by original styles of playing !

Zark
10-04-2015, 07:22 PM
Violoniste18: most of your serves were illegal - not tossing the ball high enough eg 16 cm.

violoniste18
10-05-2015, 03:36 PM
??? what is the link with this thread ?

gmiller2233
12-28-2015, 03:33 PM
Wasn't that Dan Seemiller on the table right next to that match that you saw getting his ball from time to time starting about the 8:40 or min mark?


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UpSideDownCarl
12-28-2015, 08:08 PM
I was looking for an orthodox but different style and found on youtube the player "Bogan" who played (et still play) with the same side forehand and backhand.

Here is a photo I pulled off the internet of the "Seemiller Grip" that Bogan and Seemiller used:

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/28/d4b096a899cc4901a71a442404b24873.jpg

A long pips player I used to train with used this grip for how easy it was to switch from Traditional Grip back to Seemiller Grip in a way that switched from pips to smooth instantaneously. You really had to pay attention to be color of the rubber to play him because the "twiddle" was seamless.

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gmiller2233
02-06-2016, 09:40 PM
I just got a text from a friend that said mr Seemiller is coming to town for a tournament. Not sure if he is playing or coaching but I would love to see him play in person!


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TT_Rogue
02-06-2016, 11:28 PM
dear lord if this was not invented already some time ago i would say this is some next level .... . I dont know how anybody can think that this is an effective way of playing table tennis. if you take the hours learning to play this way and invest it in your technique training with a grip that makes biomechanicly sense you will actually improve. Too long fingers? Man that problem is just in your head, you need to cut this out if you want to get better

Shuki
02-07-2016, 12:14 AM
I played with a 12 year old kid in indiana a couple months ago using this grip. He was already around 2000 USATT rated.

violoniste18
02-07-2016, 02:15 AM
of course it's not an advisable grip, it's only reserved to special cases.

It was a test for me and I stopped because of an elbow's injury, too much tenseness !

gmiller2233
02-07-2016, 06:17 PM
I don't know how high brogan was ranked but I know Dan Seemiller was ranked as high as 18 in the world. And he was a USA champion.

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Shuki
02-07-2016, 07:06 PM
I just got a text from a friend that said mr Seemiller is coming to town for a tournament. Not sure if he is playing or coaching but I would love to see him play in person!




Yes he should be coming to kansas in april.

mr. tom
02-08-2016, 12:48 PM
with all respect, but playing with anti, with a "Seemiller grip", plus twidling...I can't stop people from playing like that and it's everyone's right to do so. I bet it doesn't make the game suddenly easy and I don't call it an unfair advantage. If you see what results those players achieved with this style, it's a very high level.

Still, sorry, but I just don't like it.

violoniste18
02-08-2016, 01:46 PM
obviously it's not a nice style to see but could be to play !

mr. tom
02-08-2016, 02:37 PM
Imagin having to play against it

gmiller2233
02-08-2016, 06:03 PM
Mr Tom, totally legitimate reasonable response but just for fun because I find the topic interesting.
I would not like running up agonist the style say in a tournament or somethings ( of course I have not played In a torment, at leas not yet) but there is a time and place for everything, well maybe not everything but at least variations. I would not necessarily recommend mr seemillers style and I don't want to emulate it but you've got admit it's pretty cool that his example exists as unconventional success at the professional ranks. There's a lot to be said and respected about a player that understands their strengths, weaknesses, maybe physical limitations what ever and goes forward to adapt there equipment, grip (slightly or drastically) style of play to become ultra competitive or as as competitive as they can be. this goes for amateur as well as professional. There are a lot of reasons why this sport is amazing but for me as a fan of the sport, as well as amateur player the examples of diversity of play and seeing how people adapt there style to fit them is one of the most interesting and exciting things. Seemiller may be an extreme but he's a great example of this.

Personally I don't play anti or pips (I did mess around with short pips and I thought it was fun, who doesn't like hitting) or a unconventional style, and I can't say I like playing against, say a player with a anti. But I can say playing against unconventional style players have made me better in the long run. Becoming Less robotic, more thoughtful about where and how I attack and strategize no mater how frustrating at times it was at the moment. If I only faced players playing like this I might think differently but topspin loopers/attackers (I count myself as one) are alive and well.


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Shuki
02-08-2016, 10:20 PM
Imagin having to play against it

Do you struggle to play against most antispin/long pip players? I tend to enjoy playing against them more than inverted on both sides.

NextLevel
02-08-2016, 10:49 PM
Do you struggle to play against most antispin/long pip players? I tend to enjoy playing against them more than inverted on both sides.

Yeah, most people who don't like those styles tend to struggle against them. In the end, it's up to the player holding the bat to have skills. Danny Seemiller has an incredibly spinny forehand loop. The kind of thing that you have to block or play against to see how slow and spinny it is.

mr. tom
02-09-2016, 07:31 AM
Do you struggle to play against most antispin/long pip players? I tend to enjoy playing against them more than inverted on both sides.

I don't especially struggle against antispin/long pips players. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose, just like against players with normal inverted rubbers.

All I ment was, for me, some players with long pips or antispin play such an awkward game I don't enjoy playing against them. It's not that I can't win, their game make it impossible for me to play a fun, beautifull match. But please don't get me wrong, I think players can play awkward styles with antispin or long pips. Playing against more orthodox players, in general, just happens to be more fun for me.

UpSideDownCarl
02-09-2016, 12:32 PM
There are guys who use the Seemiller grip and play an all out topspin game. The grip causes the racket to be closed easily for FH and BH so topspin is pretty natural without having to do as much to adjust your wrist to close the racket. I think it is actually closer to some tennis grips that are used today than the traditional shakehand grip. But the Seemiller grip does make it really easy to twiddle for those guys who use it.

Shakehand grip: FH racket closed by forearm pronation and wrist extension:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160209/d57b68d4ae3b4ffd816c8bacf37cd2cc.jpg

Shakehand grip: BH closed by forearm supination and wrist flexion

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160209/c4398107e97b77ad9b2b5af6c98ad4f0.jpg

Seemiller grip: FH closed with wrist and forearm in neutral position:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160209/e47030522b3af9098001e32863654d32.jpg

Seemiller grip: BH closed with wrist and forearm in neutral position.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160209/7fd16d0e440f731f1cefc71741fbd3a5.jpg

Biomechanically Seemiller grip is much easier on your elbow joint than shakehand grip because you don't have to do anything to close the racket for FH or BH topspin.

Personally, I can't play with the grip for beans. But that is because I am so used to turning my wrist and forearm for the FH and BH shots. But I have a friend who plays shakehand who can switch back and forth from these grips and play all topspin and play pretty well with either grip.

However, he can also, with a shakehand grip, turn his palm up and hit FH loops with the BH side and the loop is as good as with the normal side.

In the end, I think it's all what you are used to.

Shuki
02-09-2016, 02:50 PM
there are a few strong advantages of the seemiller grip i've noticed. firstly they block like champions. Secondly they don't have that middle elbow position where you have to decide on forehand or backhand and move to the correct place that shakehand players struggle with and get jammed.