The Backhand

[exotick]

What's your backhand technique? I have been trying using wrist snap, forearm and thumb and index fingers fingers supination and just can't decide for what backhand technique to go for.

Regarding the fingers technique --> Ti long explains it well here -->

What are the advantages of using the wrist actively vs using the forearm actively and then the wrist to just follow the movement?

Which method i wonder is best for an aggresive fh player or it doesn't matter? Be interested to see what technique everybody is using and what his playstyle is

*Using 09c on backhand , but can't seem to update my profile. I guess i need a technique that helps with power as 09c isn't easy on the bh, but i just love the feeling of the rubber and the control i have with it. I honestly just try to set up most times for a fh power loop (Ma long and Chuqin style). But i do want a more dangerous bh so better players can't pin me on the bh.

 

[gordonluvsu]

Here is what I have to say.

In General, smaller movements are easier to control and adjust.
Getting Timing right and feeling the ball is easier.
But they inherently lack Power, acceleration and speed.

So, using wrist only is more controlled but once you need to loop a heavy underspin Ball, go into a Rally or hit a powerful Finisher, you will realize that its very hard or almost impossible.

With forearm you get most Power, speed and acceleration. But you still hold the racket with your hand and wrist, use that to get the last Touch and adjustment with the ball.

Wrist only is used for Flips, and fast short movements where you cant get forearm in or need to react quickly.

You can use your entire arm as well for some Darko Jorgic style whippy Finishers but that the same issue. Less control and adjustment.

At the end of the day you still use your entire body. Some areas more, some less.

Also your body, you arm and its parts arent static, they can wiggle and whip.
All of that works together.

Equipment also plays a role.
D09c is pretty good but also hard

But experience and practice will always be your best teachers.
Try different Things out, techniques, movements etc..
Figure out what works for you.

Also your body works best with Images, feelings and cues.
Not with detailed instructions or explanations.
Watching is infinetly times better than reading about it.
Add in some words and small descruptions to assist the visuals.

I Personally like tacky rubbers and try to follow techniques like FZD and Zhang Jike.
Mostly forearm movement but wrist also as an extra swinging Part.

 

[Der_Echte]

Prety much i would agree with what gordon is saying about theory in general. I feel these concepts are pretty sound.

I do not however prefer tacky rubber at all, but that is me and no TT player is required to play like Der_Echte... I would prefer it that way anyway, with the new ball more and more players are playing pretty much the same and it has hurt the art form of TT a lot.

 

[Der_Echte]

What's your backhand technique? I have been trying using wrist snap, forearm and thumb and index fingers fingers supination and just can't decide for what backhand technique to go for.

Regarding the fingers technique --> Ti long explains it well here -->

What are the advantages of using the wrist actively vs using the forearm actively and then the wrist to just follow the movement?

Which method i wonder is best for an aggresive fh player or it doesn't matter? Be interested to see what technique everybody is using and what his playstyle is

*Using 09c on backhand , but can't seem to update my profile. I guess i need a technique that helps with power as 09c isn't easy on the bh, but i just love the feeling of the rubber and the control i have with it. I honestly just try to set up most times for a fh power loop (Ma long and Chuqin style). But i do want a more dangerous bh so better players can't pin me on the bh.

very good amateur player Haruka, who is a Japanese player in Korea and speaks great Korean... she advocates using fingers to squeeze the bat before impact and actually make a flip simply by squeezing the bat... and later add some wrist and lower arm.

She articulates very well and shows both bad ang good technique.

 

[blahness]

What's your backhand technique? I have been trying using wrist snap, forearm and thumb and index fingers fingers supination and just can't decide for what backhand technique to go for.

Regarding the fingers technique --> Ti long explains it well here -->

What are the advantages of using the wrist actively vs using the forearm actively and then the wrist to just follow the movement?

Which method i wonder is best for an aggresive fh player or it doesn't matter? Be interested to see what technique everybody is using and what his playstyle is

*Using 09c on backhand , but can't seem to update my profile. I guess i need a technique that helps with power as 09c isn't easy on the bh, but i just love the feeling of the rubber and the control i have with it. I honestly just try to set up most times for a fh power loop (Ma long and Chuqin style). But i do want a more dangerous bh so better players can't pin me on the bh.

Ti Long's video above transformed my BH. The core spinning mechanics is based on the thumb and index fingers used to drive the supination. With it I can get some crazy spin even with a no backswing 1 inch stroke. This is very advantageous in match play because you are almost immune to jamming from fast balls. Then I just need to adjust contact points for different incoming spins. This also works really well for chiquita.

Then you add the forearm action and the lat pull mechanism and the internal hip rotation, and it is becoming a fast and spinny BH loop.

09c for BH is only for damn powerful players imo or those who like to play more mid distance. Very hard to use that on BH when you're out of position imo. 05 is much better for close table BH players imo.

I think it is easier to acquire the control to tame 05, than it is to acquire the sheer body power to push 09c to the limit.

Even really poweful BH players like Ovtcharov switched back from 09c to 05 on the BH...

 

[Amayzde]

I remember having lots of trouble with my backhand.

1 tip that revolutionized my backhand topspin was: rather than actively trying to use your wrist, relax your wrist and release your wrist right after you swing your forearm foreward.

I watched Ti Longs video, and he is doing this as well. At 3:23 you can see that when he swings his forearm foreward, he keeps his wrist relaxed. This makes his wrist and racket turn slightly more backwards before he releases it foreward.

Doing this correctly creates a spring-like effect in the wrist and will result in a high racket speed when hitting the ball.

 

[blahness]

On correct angles, contact points and brushing technique against different spins:

The biggest problem with most ppl's BH usually is vs a deep,fast long spinny af underspin ball and is the primary problem - on the contrary BH countering against topspin is easy for most ppl. This comes from a stereotype where a lot of tutorials and ppl online have the idea that you can't contact the bottom of the ball when you do topspin against backspin. Therefore they end up trying to brute force brush the ball which results in them trying to grit their teeth and looping upwards like crazy, compromising their entire form and positioning, all just to make the ball go over the net! Whereas contacting the ball slightly on the bottom will result in much thicker contact and makes it easy to overcome backspin, regardless of how heavy the underspin is.

Against ppl with this kind of stereotypical thinking, the easiest solution to exploit that is to serve long heavy sidebackspin into their BH and watch them attempt to contort their body to try to loop it (then counter it with blocks targeted wide or to their elbow and watch them scramble even more), and then couple it with short sidetopspin serves (because they need to retreat and get ready for the long backspin serve, they won't get to the short sidetopspin serve in time to receive it well).

There is a similar problem where ppl think they have to contact the right side of the ball when looping against FH pendulum and left side of the ball when looping against reverse pendulum simply because that's how they push the ball (in fact the easiest solution is the exact opposite) Again it's stereotypical thinking, and once you jump out of it, you can realise how easy it is to loop these balls consistently and with power without compromising your positioning.

Another stereotype is trying to go over the ball against long heavy topspin serves, you end up with a thin contact which is mistake prone. Or you do a basic counter and get punished for it. The secret to looping these is actually not to go forward but sideways (FH to left, BH to right) but still contact it square on. This can reduce the forward momentum of the ball which allows you to land the ball much more easily.

 

[KM1976]

Liam Pitchford's masterclass in TTD Academy is excellent. I have purchased the lessons and I just follow what is being taught in the lessons. I can suggest from my own experience that it is very helpful in developing the backhand.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

My BH is taught to be like throwing a frisbee. I understood immediately.

 

[exotick]

Great stuff everybody!

@blahness Regarding 09c vs 05 ---> I was between the two for the BH but my believe is that 09c is more forgiving and gives more control. Much easier on serve receive too. In match situations and pressure moments 09c helps tremendously - much easier to keep the ball on the table with it, which for a fh orienter player makes sense as it is easier for me to set up fh pivot for example. I disagree that 09c is for mid distance however - you would need a lot of power then and you lose on the good short game.

Do you use pronation on the fh btw? Pressure on index finger? I seem to hit fh fully relaxed and no pressure on rubber on either side.

she advocates using fingers to squeeze the bat before impact and actually make a flip simply by squeezing the bat... and later add some wrist and lower arm.

Interesting. Using fingers first then wrist and arm later? Thought it would be forearm-->wrist-->fingers. Just saw Ti Long at 3:23 and he doesn't have the thumb on the rubber on the backswing and indeed puts it there before going forward. Eye opening that!

@KM1976 About Liam's masterclass.. I was thinking of getting it. But he uses a lot of wrist, doesn't he? Not easy for us amateurs to find the consistency i would think. Although.. i remember someone (I think @NDH )saying that his kind of backhand is well suited for his height and long arms (and i am a bit taller) so maybe worth giving that a shot.. He doesn't seem to use much the fingers.

 

[exotick]

To add to the confusion of what technique to use.. just found this

Anyone here uses Ma Long bh? Seems a bit harder to generate topspin with it, but looks better for players staying more on the left side of the table waiting to pivot. If only Truls and Aruna learned this

 

[blahness]

Great stuff everybody!

@blahness Regarding 09c vs 05 ---> I was between the two for the BH but my believe is that 09c is more forgiving and gives more control. Much easier on serve receive too. In match situations and pressure moments 09c helps tremendously - much easier to keep the ball on the table with it, which for a fh orienter player makes sense as it is easier for me to set up fh pivot for example. I disagree that 09c is for mid distance however - you would need a lot of power then and you lose on the good short game.

Do you use pronation on the fh btw? Pressure on index finger? I seem to hit fh fully relaxed and no pressure on rubber on either side.


Interesting. Using fingers first then wrist and arm later? Thought it would be forearm-->wrist-->fingers. Just saw Ti Long at 3:23 and he doesn't have the thumb on the rubber on the backswing and indeed puts it there before going forward. Eye opening that!

@KM1976 About Liam's masterclass.. I was thinking of getting it. But he uses a lot of wrist, doesn't he? Not easy for us amateurs to find the consistency i would think. Although.. i remember someone (I think @NDH )saying that his kind of backhand is well suited for his height and long arms (and i am a bit taller) so maybe worth giving that a shot.. He doesn't seem to use much the fingers.

Yes I do use pronation on the FH too, but because the FH is a larger movement it's a lot more subtle than it is on the BH.

Also with FH there is a corresponding 2 finger lever arm movement which can also create wild spin just by itself which is especially important for loops in bad positions (think half long or shorter half high balls). The thumb is like a pivot which I apply some pressure with the tip, with the index finger applying the bulk of the pressure. But which part of the index finger applies the pressure is very important. If we divide it into 3 parts (counting from the palm to the next adjacent joint), you have to use joint 1 for pressure (closest to the palm) because that will close the blade angle (what you want for a loop), while if you use joint 3 it actually opens up the blade angle.

I agree that 09c is way better than 05 for short receives, but I think 05 is actually much better for sudden long receives and also chiquita because it is not as responsive to incoming spin than 09c and offers more speed with an easier/smaller movement which is more sudden for the opponent.

 

[Lula]

I would say that the movement always start from the elbow. When it looks like only wrist then they stop really early at the elbow. If you start with the wrist first you lose control and power. But i do think that many players tense the fingers, especially put pressure on the thumb. I have been coaching in my spare time for 15+ years, i have found it interesting to try to remove the theoretical aspects of technique and do multiball then go after the result. So good quality, then the technique works. Everyone play a bit diffirent, as long as you get good quality shot and it suits your playing style then the techique is working.

 

[Der_Echte]

Interesting. Using fingers first then wrist and arm later? Thought it would be forearm-->wrist-->fingers. Just saw Ti Long at 3:23 and he doesn't have the thumb on the rubber on the backswing and indeed puts it there before going forward. Eye opening that!

Hakura sets her leverage with a step in and elbow in front... she is talking about a very safe banana flip. Point tip of bat down, step in, get elbow in front, allow ball to drop, then squeeze away. can be done with only a squeeze for slower and safe one, can involve more to get more spin and a little more pace.

The squeeze makes bat go upwards, which is what you want when impacting a falling ball perpendicular to the spin axis.

Then we would be talking about hybrid or straight flips that use more arm and wrist.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hakura has these faster straight and hybrid flips too, where there is more conventional use of the arm and wrist to power the shot with the elbow in front set leverage.

It was this vid i posted in your thread where she discusses how to be safe with BH banana flip using the fingers... it is very interesting and a good study.

Like many female TT players, she has a very hard fast FH drive with big grip firm, but she has a very excellent variety of BH shots - she is very dynamic there in match play.

 

[Der_Echte]

@KM1976 About Liam's masterclass.. I was thinking of getting it. But he uses a lot of wrist, doesn't he? Not easy for us amateurs to find the consistency i would think. Although.. i remember someone (I think @NDH )saying that his kind of backhand is well suited for his height and long arms (and i am a bit taller) so maybe worth giving that a shot.. He doesn't seem to use much the fingers.

In the same vid, Haruka says that you can get your wrist and arm very tired very quickly trying to flip like the pros.

Why? The pros really cock that wrist full back and explode with wrist. This takes a lot of trained muscle on arm, wrist, and tricep - many amateurs will tire out pretty quickly trying to imitate the pros' flip. She demonstrated it in the vid then advocated her simplified approach of squeezing the banana flip.

 

[Amayzde]

To add to the confusion of what technique to use.. just found this

Anyone here uses Ma Long bh? Seems a bit harder to generate topspin with it, but looks better for players staying more on the left side of the table waiting to pivot. If only Truls and Aruna learned this

I watched this video as well some time ago, when I tried the movement I figured I was actually already doing this when I do a backhand topspin in front of my body. It feels more natural for me.

I only really rotate my body front my left leg to my right leg when opening op against backspin or when the ball comes left of my body (for right handers).

But I would say you shouldn't focus on this yet before you can get a good contact with the ball consistently.

 

[exotick]

Thank you all! Will be concentrating on the bh training in the upcoming weeks to see what exactly feels better for me. Definitely going to change a bit now that i am gonig to try to use supination and also start with the forearm rather than wrist.

 

[ben1229]

Backhand , timing >speed>power.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Yesterday I went back to my old coach's academy for some loop-a-loop time.
Then I came to BH to BH and he told me of the latest development in BH. He said:
1. The plane of BH rubber is now parallel to the table.
2. Brush and brush. You need to let the rubber grip the ball and then flick your wrist outwards.
3. I would say even regular BH is like a chiquita now. Everything is chiquita. Chiquita! Chiquita! Chiquita!