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Overseer Kevin
10-07-2015, 08:42 PM
Say I get tenergy 80. And boost it. Does it then become more like the fx version or are the characteristics still totally different?

Anders
10-07-2015, 08:48 PM
If you get the T80 and boost it, you'll get a softer, more flexible, faster and slightly heavier rubber.. That's what you'll get. So to answer your question: No, you won't turn it into the FX-version, you'll get more of a "T80 version 2.0 super upgrade"..

Overseer Kevin
10-07-2015, 09:06 PM
So the booster working on the sponge on regular 80 actually makes it heavier? When I use tenergy or used Bryce, I've always used to fx versions. I just thought the "fx" made the rubber sound cooler. Lol

But as I've learned a little more about the equipment I'm seriously considering switching to the regular versions of tenergy. Especially since I saw the timo boll and jun mizutani video for tenergy showing the differences of the rubbers.

Anders
10-07-2015, 09:17 PM
So the booster working on the sponge on regular 80 actually makes it heavier? When I use tenergy or used Bryce, I've always used to fx versions. I just thought the "fx" made the rubber sound cooler. Lol

But as I've learned a little more about the equipment I'm seriously considering switching to the regular versions of tenergy. Especially since I saw the timo boll and jun mizutani video for tenergy showing the differences of the rubbers.

It's not only for the 80, but for all rubbers, if you add something to it, you'll also add weight.. How much weight depends on how much you boost.

The FX-version is softer and a tad lighter than the regular versions, apart from that they are quite similar. The FX-should give higher arc and better control than the regulars. But ofc, equipment is always a matter of personal preference, if you like it, doesn't matter what pro using it, it's not like a football boot that is good or bad depending on the model, every rubber is good or bad for someone :)

UpSideDownCarl
10-07-2015, 10:12 PM
Since the boost is oil and the oil doesn't evaporate (unless you are using paraffin) the amount of weight you add is the weight of the oil you add.

If you use paraffin, as it evaporates the weight slowly goes back down.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

Overseer Kevin
10-08-2015, 02:16 AM
Thanks guys, this is very helpful. What is a good booster without the VOC's?

NextLevel
10-08-2015, 05:12 AM
It's not only for the 80, but for all rubbers, if you add something to it, you'll also add weight.. How much weight depends on how much you boost.

The FX-version is softer and a tad lighter than the regular versions, apart from that they are quite similar. The FX-should give higher arc and better control than the regulars. But ofc, equipment is always a matter of personal preference, if you like it, doesn't matter what pro using it, it's not like a football boot that is good or bad depending on the model, every rubber is good or bad for someone :)

Good info, but one correction - FX gives lower arc. You can see it in 05FX most clearly and any of the others if you test it.

Overseer Kevin
10-08-2015, 05:32 AM
Good info, but one correction - FX gives lower arc. You can see it in 05FX most clearly and any of the others if you test it.

I noticed the Tenergy video explaining the different characteristics of the Tenergy series also noted that the fx version gives a more direct trajectory. But in the hands of certain players I suppose they can get more arch out of the fx version than the average player.

NextLevel
10-08-2015, 05:57 AM
I noticed the Tenergy video explaining the different characteristics of the Tenergy series also noted that the fx version gives a more direct trajectory. But in the hands of certain players I suppose they can get more arch out of the fx version than the average player.
I'm a notoriously confused decent level EJ, an EJ who argues with other EJs about the value of EJing, and we decent level EJs are all on the same page so we don't really argue - I tend to argue more with the naive EJs.

In general, getting too much arc out of any Tenergy 05 or 0FX is a sign of imperfect contact compared to what the rubber was designed to do. The rubber is designed to generate high spin and encourage closed contact on many shots, including looping heavy backspin, once you have sufficient racket head speed. That said, if you want to play high arcing shots, Tenergy 05 or 05FX will support it on thin brush shots. In general, the fact that T05 encourages closed racket angles makes it encourage heavy spin and less speed on all shots, including shots with proper closed contact that were designed to be drives.

The bottom line is that TT is about technique, not equipment. Once you have good technique, you will have preferences, but you can play decently with anything. I for example, have become a heavy topspin player with drive tendencies, so I like high spin rubbers first and foremost, preferably with hard sponge, but if you gave me something slightly softer and even maybe something medium soft, it is likely I would adjust without issue over time.

Anders
10-08-2015, 10:05 PM
I'm a notoriously confused decent level EJ, an EJ who argues with other EJs about the value of EJing, and we decent level EJs are all on the same page so we don't really argue - I tend to argue more with the naive EJs.

In general, getting too much arc out of any Tenergy 05 or 0FX is a sign of imperfect contact compared to what the rubber was designed to do. The rubber is designed to generate high spin and encourage closed contact on many shots, including looping heavy backspin, once you have sufficient racket head speed. That said, if you want to play high arcing shots, Tenergy 05 or 05FX will support it on thin brush shots. In general, the fact that T05 encourages closed racket angles makes it encourage heavy spin and less speed on all shots, including shots with proper closed contact that were designed to be drives.

The bottom line is that TT is about technique, not equipment. Once you have good technique, you will have preferences, but you can play decently with anything. I for example, have become a heavy topspin player with drive tendencies, so I like high spin rubbers first and foremost, preferably with hard sponge, but if you gave me something slightly softer and even maybe something medium soft, it is likely I would adjust without issue over time.

If you, as an EJ, was to name a rubber that encourages an open racket angle, what rubber would you suggest? Just curious :-)

NextLevel
10-08-2015, 10:19 PM
If you, as an EJ, was to name a rubber that encourages an open racket angle, what rubber would you suggest? Just curious :-)
Relatively speaking, the Calibra LTs, Juic Nanospin II or even among the Tenergys, Tenergy 64 when passive blocking vs. Tenergy 05. Even MX-S that I use right now isn't the same as MX-P or T05 in favoring very closed racket angles but it is also the most confusing rubber that I have ever used. Most of the rubbers I used prominently until recently favored very closed racket angles (Tenergy 05, Baracuda, Bluefire). If I tested a rubber that was less than high throw, I would avoid it because I knew I would be looping backspin into the net too often. IF it wasn't for the MX-S reviews from Drinkhall and Smith, I would probably have discarded it after using it the first time just because of the throw angle. I persevered because of the spin and the desire to use something with a different signature from Tenergy as it would make my loops harder to read for people used to facing 05 and Hurricane.

My coach asked me when I was backhand looping to him last week whether I had changed rubber because he could block my loop at table height consistently where before, he consistently had to hold his racket higher. Since I used to use Tenergy 05 and switched to MX-S, that says something.

UpSideDownCarl
10-08-2015, 11:54 PM
I have joined EJs anonymous. No more EJing for me. I will only try every piece of equipment I possibly can. That's all.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

Overseer Kevin
10-09-2015, 04:26 AM
Ok. Let me get some therapy here. When does trying to find the right match of blade, rubber, and playing style flip over to becoming a EJ?

NextLevel
10-09-2015, 04:47 AM
Ok. Let me get some therapy here. When does trying to find the right match of blade, rubber, and playing style flip over to becoming a EJ?

When you think this search is a substitute for training to improve your game, get enamored with some "right" matches, then switch them out when the honeymoon period is over for no good reason.

The worst kind of EJing is when people switch repeatedly between blades and rubbers in the same general class. This week, Tenergy, next week, Evolution, next week, Bluefire, next week, Maxx/Rasant/Tenzone/Omega etc. or this week, Korbel, next week, Powerwood, next week, Offensive S etc. OR this month, Viscaria, next two months, Timo Boll ALC, next, Timo Boll ZLC.

There is nothing particularly wrong with being an EJ if you just enjoy trying out equipment. The problem is when you think the right setup will transform your game. This is misguided.

There is No right match of blade, rubber and playing style - playing style is a choice, and if you don't have a playing style you like, use an all round set up that allows you to play a wide variety of shots while you learn then specialize your set up when you decide on your playing style. Blades and rubbers are choices too, but usually, once they are within a specific range and suit your specific style, you aren't going to get better by changing them. You will get better by training, and that training will improve your ability to use any similar class of rubbers and blades to make similar shots.

There are also many misconceptions about blades and rubbers but I digress. In general, it is best to start on the ALL/ALL+/OFF- range for both blades and rubbers, and then upgrade or down grade form there, depending on how one intends to play. The simplest reason is that you need to learn to control the ball and play full strokes, and also strokes that hold onto the ball initially, and also play the ball at a pace that gives you time to recover. If you use something fast, the ball will fly off your racket before you have time to manipulate it unless you develop really good touch and timing skills, but those skills are easier to develop when you start with a slower blade.

Overseer Kevin
10-09-2015, 05:22 AM
Great answer. I'm down right now because of a work injury and can't play at all (knee surgery soon). So I'm floating through the table tennis cyber world reading review about this and that rubber, blade, player, etc. Even boosters which I've never done before, but might give it a shot when I get back. I guess with the idol time I'm having a lot of time to imagine and contemplate the "maybe I should" phrase. Lol

Overseer Kevin
10-09-2015, 05:24 AM
But I am going to boost the heck out of this 64fx. Just to see how it plays on steroids.

Hamasaki_Fanz
10-09-2015, 07:35 AM
But I am going to boost the heck out of this 64fx. Just to see how it plays on steroids.

not a good idea, tenergy is already a tensor rubber, meaning that the topsheet is already stretched to its maximum and the sponge has been made so that it's springy and has the kicking effect. Boosting tenergy might destroy those features that you pay for 70 USD.

Overseer Kevin
10-09-2015, 03:46 PM
not a good idea, tenergy is already a tensor rubber, meaning that the topsheet is already stretched to its maximum and the sponge has been made so that it's springy and has the kicking effect. Boosting tenergy might destroy those features that you pay for 70 USD.

You've just killed my dreams. Ok, maybe I'll try a older sheet first. Just two layers maybe?

Hamasaki_Fanz
10-09-2015, 03:51 PM
sure, when the rubber is almost dead and you think it's no longer playable, why not ?

but then again, it's up to you, it's your money, you'll never know til you've tried. This curiosity might haunt you till your death. It's better to try it and report to us for our knowledge too :p

I'm not rich person so I'm too afraid to modify my tensor rubber.

UpSideDownCarl
10-09-2015, 05:15 PM
First off, what NextLevel said. That is an excellent post.

I have used plenty of different stuff. I always enjoy a few moments of hitting with something new to try different setups. But what NextLevel has said is pretty accurate. Most rubbers work on most blades. Most blades work with most rubbers.

The rubbers that Stiga makes are made in one place. The rubbers that Butterfly makes are made somewhere else. The rubbers for most of the rest of the "tensioned" rubbers are made at the ESN factory. If you are talking about Tensor type rubbers there are pretty much 3 sources. All of the ESN rubbers have slight differences. However, regardless of the slight differences, they are all made in the same place. So they have comparable characteristics. I am obviously taking the Chinese rubbers out of the equation, but they are, for the most part, different in kind from the rubbers we are talking about.

So if you like one Stiga rubber, chances are you will like others even though they are not exactly the same. If you like T05 you will probably like T80 and T64 even though, each will take a few hours to adjust to and you may like one more than the others. Same can be said for all the ESN rubbers.

Now, here is the real kicker. If I was to give you a blade and rubber combination and you were to hit with it and think it was just awful, and I somehow forced you to do all your training with that setup for two months and you trained 3 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, by the end of a month or, at most, two months, that setup would feel very natural and you would feel sort of like it was made for you. Even though you thought it was no good at the beginning. From that point when it started feeling like it was made for you, you would judge everything else based on your experience with that blade which, at first you did not like.

Say it was really slow. When you picked up a faster blade you would feel and think: "this is too fast." Say it was really fast, fast enough to give you problems with your control and to force you to use less impact on your strokes; when you tried something slower you would think: "this is too slow." Even if the slower speed setup would be much better for your overall development.

We judge everything else based on what we are already used to.

I have two friends who are pro players who are both from Europe. Both were both on the junior national teams for their respective countries. Independently, they both told me that, when they were developing, their coach did not ask what they liked or wanted but gave them a racket setup and that was what they had to use. For both, the blade was all wood and 5 ply. It was in the Off-/All+ speed category. For both the rubbers were basic rubbers. These days, the rubbers might be an early version of a tensor rubber or a mid speed high control tensor. They were given Sriver or Mark V. These days the rubbers could be the conventional ones. They would be fine. But a rubber like Xiom Vega Pro (FH) and Vega Europe (BH) would probably be fine.

There are several reasons why using a setup like this, at least until you are about 2100 (USATT rated) is that the extra feeling from the wood and the extra dwell time and slightly slower speed, allows your nervous system to figure stuff out without you even being aware that this is happening. The thing is, with a blade like a carbon blade that is fast, you have a lot less dwell time and a lot less of an ability to feel what happens when you contact the ball. And a blade like that also makes it so, you can't feel when your contact is not good and the carbon makes it so the shot quality is still not bad when the contact is not so good. So it helps make a bad shot seem, well, not so bad.

Whereas, a 5 ply, all wood blade with good flex, good dwell time and lots of feeling, helps you feel with you make good contact and when you make bad contact. It is as important to feel when you make bad contact as when you feel the good contact. You are also rewarded for the good contact and sort of punished for the bad contact with a worse shot. But this feedback actually helps your nervous system sort some stuff out so that your contact improves much faster than if you used a Carbon blade.

The feedback from the blade also helps your system learn the touch it takes to keep the ball on the surface of the rubber longer, how to make more impact and still have a delicate, brush contact. That is also harder to learn with a blade that has carbon that makes all different impacts feel much more similar.

Once you are at about the level of 2100, those carbon blades may do more for your game. But before that, usually not.

And any good, top of the line Butterfly or ESN rubber would be great on a 5 ply all wood Off- blade for someone who is at more of an intermediate level. Whereas, the same blade with a slightly more simple rubber, not as fast or spinny, would make sense for someone who is starting.

As NextLevel has already said, this idea of searching for the holy grail of blade and rubber combination, is a ruse. All rubbers work adequately on all blades. Some blades have more feeling. Some rubbers have more or less feeling. Sometimes you put a rubber on a blade after a previous rubber and you think, the other rubber felt better. But if you play with it for a few hours, you get used to it. And then they will work fine together. So that is more, your nervous system getting used to something new than anything else.

And if you are using a ZJK Super ZLC, you have already spend more for your blade than you should have.

Don't believe the marketing hype. I was joking when I said Bryce HighSpeed was best on the newest Butterfly blade.

Overseer Kevin
10-09-2015, 06:35 PM
Yes I'm using the "jike super zlc". Not what I expected but it is great. Even after a month I still think that the Innerforce zlc was better for me away from the table. Just like the Tenergy rubbers, I've tried 80fx, 05fx, and 64fx. Love all of them but for some reason I always find myself longing for the hard tire rubber of the donic bluefire m1 turbo I used for a few months. I'm fascinated with the spin of the xiom omega 4 Pro but don't like that it's so slow. That's why I put it on my backhand. Works great for defense... Which I find myself practicing a lot. Lol

My form caught up to the equipment pretty fast. Hours upon hours of sparring sessions in practice with far more consistent hitters and loopers. But I have to admit my backhand needs help when hitting balls off the table that are low and below the net. Studying Fan Zhendong to help with that issue.

I'm still going to try the Highspeed. My control can handle it on the Forehand.

NextLevel
10-09-2015, 06:47 PM
Yes I'm using the "jike super zlc". Not what I expected but it is great. Even after a month I still think that the Innerforce zlc was better for me away from the table. Just like the Tenergy rubbers, I've tried 80fx, 05fx, and 64fx. Love all of them but for some reason I always find myself longing for the hard tire rubber of the donic bluefire m1 turbo I used for a few months. I'm fascinated with the spin of the xiom omega 4 Pro but don't like that it's so slow. That's why I put it on my backhand. Works great for defense... Which I find myself practicing a lot. Lol

My form caught up to the equipment pretty fast. Hours upon hours of sparring sessions in practice with far more consistent hitters and loopers. But I have to admit my backhand needs help when hitting balls off the table that are low and below the net. Studying Fan Zhendong to help with that issue.

I'm still going to try the Highspeed. My control can handle it on the Forehand.

May I ask your USATT rating please?

I got to USATT 2000 without using Butterfly composite blades. I didn't even use their overpriced wood blades either - I gave away my Primorac OFF- for free. I bought my first Butterfly composite in over 2 and a half years last month (IF ZLC) and I still don't use it because I am happy with my current blade. With my flawed technique, I found that no matter how well I played with a composite, I always played better with a 5 ply or 7 ply wood blade. I found other higher ranked players who felt strongly the same way.

I would never recommend a composite Butterfly blade or rubber to an adult learner under 1600 in USATT rating, and even those above who need to learn good technique should not use them in my book unless their coach strongly recommends those blades. And anyone under 1600 who is playing away from the table needs to fix his game. Backing up from the table means you are doing something wrong.

Overseer Kevin
10-09-2015, 10:23 PM
Discount. Lol Don't dis the Zhang Jike Super ZLC. But it was still expensive though.

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 12:55 AM
May I ask your USATT rating please?

I got to USATT 2000 without using Butterfly composite blades. I didn't even use their overpriced wood blades either - I gave away my Primorac OFF- for free. I bought my first Butterfly composite in over 2 and a half years last month (IF ZLC) and I still don't use it because I am happy with my current blade. With my flawed technique, I found that no matter how well I played with a composite, I always played better with a 5 ply or 7 ply wood blade. I found other higher ranked players who felt strongly the same way.

I would never recommend a composite Butterfly blade or rubber to an adult learner under 1600 in USATT rating, and even those above who need to learn good technique should not use them in my book unless their coach strongly recommends those blades. And anyone under 1600 who is playing away from the table needs to fix his game. Backing up from the table means you are doing something wrong.

I play off the table in rallies when necessary and far more in practicing loops (FH to FH or BH to BH or mock points). I don't have a USTTA rating. Just a club rating below 1600 but I often beat players right around 2000 USTTA. I often lose to them as well. Lol Before my injury I was planning on my first USTTA tournament to be the Arnold classic. That may still be possible depending on the surgery and rehab. When I say off the table I mean around 4 ft. or more as opposed to playing a normal distance of about 1-3 ft.

When I bought my first composite blade it was a total disaster. My hitting partner thought that I had made a terrible mistake. I couldn't get serves back, touch spots were terrible, loop drives were unpredictable, etc. Every aspect of my game was affected except for movement. But once I got used to it, I really started doing well with it.

NextLevel
10-10-2015, 01:08 AM
I play off the table in rallies when necessary and far more in practicing loops (FH to FH or BH to BH or mock points). I don't have a USTTA rating. Just a club rating below 1600 but I often beat players right around 2000 USTTA. I often lose to them as well. Lol Before my injury I was planning on my first USTTA tournament to be the Arnold classic. That may still be possible depending on the surgery and rehab. When I say off the table I mean around 4 ft. or more as opposed to playing a normal distance of about 1-3 ft.

When I bought my first composite blade it was a total disaster. My hitting partner thought that I had made a terrible mistake. I couldn't get serves back, touch spots were terrible, loop drives were unpredictable, etc. Every aspect of my game was affected except for movement. But once I got used to it, I really started doing well with it.

Ah, you are a good player. I still think you made a mistake, just not necessarily a terrible one. After all, all wood blades are cheap and abundant :p. But seriously, how players have feeling with composites if they don't play a lot is beyond me. And the learning curve is greater.

I finally started using a composite but it took me time to convince myself I needed one. I went to a relatively slow one though which I will review soon.

Baal
10-10-2015, 01:48 AM
I use Tenergy 05 and quite like it au naturel. Let me give you one piece of advice -- if you do decide to boost Tenergy, go very very light with the booster. If you use very much at all, it very dramatically changes the way it plays, and not for the better. Expensive mistake I made once. Never again. (A mistake some very high level 2500ish players at my club have also made, and they will not repeat it either).

NextLevel
10-10-2015, 01:54 AM
I use Tenergy 05 and quite like it au naturel. Let me give you one piece of advice -- if you do decide to boost Tenergy, go very very light with the booster. If you use very much at all, it very dramatically changes the way it plays, and not for the better. Expensive mistake I made once. Never again. (A mistake some very high level 2500ish players at my club have also made, and they will not repeat it either).

A player with an interesting technique for looping heavy backspin actually told me that Tenergy high tension is a marketing myth. Which makes your point interesting...

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 02:04 AM
Ah, you are a good player. I still think you made a mistake, just not necessarily a terrible one. After all, all wood blades are cheap and abundant :p. But seriously, how players have feeling with composites if they don't play a lot is beyond me. And the learning curve is greater.

I finally started using a composite but it took me time to convince myself I needed one. I went to a relatively slow one though which I will review soon.

I just figured if I was going to play seriously at my age (40). I wanted to learn on something good and develop with it as opposed to going in steps. I wanted to learn on good stuff and hopeful catch up to the quality of the equipment as I don't have years to spend as younger players do. It's worked so far... Anything high on the bh is crushed. My FH loop drive can seriously change the point (Thank God for people who like to practice blocking). As usual my open up could use work... Just developing a FH flick (no power yet). Bh flick more spinny than fast (unnatural motion for me), I hit it very thin with a lot of wrist (need more arm in the technique).

Speaking of hitting thin... Have you ever tried t25?

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 02:09 AM
I use Tenergy 05 and quite like it au naturel. Let me give you one piece of advice -- if you do decide to boost Tenergy, go very very light with the booster. If you use very much at all, it very dramatically changes the way it plays, and not for the better. Expensive mistake I made once. Never again. (A mistake some very high level 2500ish players at my club have also made, and they will not repeat it either).

I would go very light. Especially if I try to boost the fx version. 1-2 layers at the most on fx. 2 layers on the regular 05. Very, very light and thin, but even layers.

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 02:10 AM
What's a good voc free booster?

NextLevel
10-10-2015, 02:13 AM
I just figured if I was going to play seriously at my age (40). I wanted to learn on something good and develop with it as opposed to going in steps. I wanted to learn on good stuff and hopeful catch up to the quality of the equipment as I don't have years to spend as younger players do. It's worked so far... Anything high on the bh is crushed. My FH loop drive can seriously change the point (Thank God for people who like to practice blocking). As usual my open up could use work... Just developing a FH flick (no power yet). Bh flick more spinny than fast (unnatural motion for me), I hit it very thin with a lot of wrist (need more arm in the technique).

Speaking of hitting thin... Have you ever tried t25?

I tried it when I was 1800 or so and it played differently enough from anything else that I had ever used that I didn't think it was worth investing time into it. Would like to try it again given that I have improved a lot since I last used it, but I suspect that based on the comments of others and the choices of peers and better players, my views would not change much.

You don't have to go in steps with equipment, but what I will say is that what you need to play at the level you want to play is much harder to learn with what you are currently using. Ultimately, this is a ball control sport and people don't like to believe that their ball control is better doing things that are in some ways different from people who played their whole lives, especially as toddlers. But if you look at how many of the pros learned, you come to the conclusion that if you don't start young, you had better get the easiest stuff to learn good technique with or you will be stuck doing things without the feedback to change them.

When you use fast equipment, the ball leaves your racket too fast for you to process what is required to fix things. The vibrations that are dampened by the composites when you get faster equipment are actually good feedback when you are learning. The sooner you realize and accept this, the quicker certain things begin to happen for you. But that said, I know players who have tried the other route. All of them end up returning to a wood blade at some point for a significant amount of time, and then return to the composite when they get to a higher level, where speed matters and they have an idea of what they should be looking for when they do the shot, which the composite gives very little of but they know what they are looking for so they don't need as much of it.

NextLevel
10-10-2015, 02:21 AM
What's a good voc free booster?

Dandoy Bioboost.
Falco Tempo Booster
Falco Tempo Long Booster
Sunflower oil
Kailin oil

UpSideDownCarl
10-10-2015, 02:26 AM
Discount. Lol Don't dis the Zhang Jike Super ZLC. But it was still expensive though.

I have been debating whether to say anything here. I hit with one of those blades. I thought it played okay. I did not think it was bad. But I did not think it was special. But I have a friend who is 2600+ who was sponsored by Butterfly and he ordered the one I tried. He ordered it more because he could than anything else. He was happy with the blade he has. But he figured he would see what it was like. To say he thought it wasn't good is an understatement. He thought it was unplayable. This may be because of the way he plays. He does a lot of play from every angle. Close, far, mid. My guess was that, because he plays from far back a lot and likes to run around and track down balls, and take crazy shots from deep, and because that blade is not as good from further back, he just really did not like it.

So, everyone has their preferences. But that is one expensive blade. It sounds like it works okay for you. But it also sounds like you are able to see its limitations and not get caught up in the hype. While still seeing ways in which the blade does work for you.

UpSideDownCarl
10-10-2015, 02:37 AM
By the way, just for reference, in the past 10 years, what the top pros use has changed a bit, but 10 years ago, in the top 10, 8 of 10 used all wood blades and 2 used composite. Now 8 of 10 use composite and 2 use all wood. But none of them use a Super ZLC and nobody uses a blade faster than a Viscaria. So, even at the highest levels, there is more use of all wood blades in the Off- to Off speed category than most amateurs realize. Xu Xin hits as fast and hard as anyone and his blade is not only all wood but kind of slow.

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 02:50 AM
I have been debating whether to say anything here. I hit with one of those blades. I thought it played okay. I did not think it was bad. But I did not think it was special. But I have a friend who is 2600+ who was sponsored by Butterfly and he ordered the one I tried. He ordered it more because he could than anything else. He was happy with the blade he has. But he figured he would see what it was like. To say he thought it wasn't good is an understatement. He thought it was unplayable. This may be because of the way he plays. He does a lot of play from every angle. Close, far, mid. My guess was that, because he plays from far back a lot and likes to run around and track down balls, and take crazy shots from deep, and because that blade is not as good from further back, he just really did not like it.

So, everyone has their preferences. But that is one expensive blade. It sounds like it works okay for you. But it also sounds like you are able to see its limitations and not get caught up in the hype. While still seeing ways in which the blade does work for you.

Yep. It's limited off the table. Touch is pretty good for me. Mid range is good as well. It gets some real pace and can hang with anyone using anything. But further back... It's very inconsistent and takes a lot of effort without the expected results. Other players say that it is fast when I'm hitting with them, but I can tell it's not the Innerforce off the table. Innerforce was fire away from the table... Close the blade and POW!!! Jike super zlc just isn't the same. I can make due with it, but I am a bit disappointed.

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 02:53 AM
By the way, just for reference, in the past 10 years, what the top pros use has changed a bit, but 10 years ago, in the top 10, 8 of 10 used all wood blades and 2 used composite. Now 8 of 10 use composite and 2 use all wood. But none of them use a Super ZLC and nobody uses a blade faster than a Viscaria. So, even at the highest levels, there is more use of all wood blades in the Off- to Off speed category than most amateurs realize. Xu Xin hits as fast and hard as anyone and his blade is not only all wood but kind of slow.

Xu xin hits the ball like a baseball pitcher almost. Lots of swing in every stroke. Great hands too

Overseer Kevin
10-10-2015, 02:54 AM
Dandoy Bioboost.
Falco Tempo Booster
Falco Tempo Long Booster
Sunflower oil
Kailin oil

That's what I needed!!! Thanks

NextLevel
10-10-2015, 12:46 PM
Xu xin hits the ball like a baseball pitcher almost. Lots of swing in every stroke. Great hands too

The great hands are greater when you use a slower blade. But the mistake many people make is to believe that they need pro level speed to beat people. For what I do, I have found the ability to spin the ball short and wide much more valuable than the ability to hit through people. Or the ability to arc and block critical. Faster blades make those things harder.

UpSideDownCarl
10-10-2015, 01:19 PM
Yep. The bigger angles make things harder for the opponent. The added control and placement make things harder for the opponent. And more spin is usually more valuable than more speed at the higher levels.

For the higher levels, high pace may be important, but pace without the spin is easy for higher level players to handle. The reason is twofold.

1) When the ball has a lot of pace but not too much spin, it does not accelerate as much off the bounce and so it ends up being easy to track a few feet back from the table. That ball will also stay up and float more as it slows down.

2) But it is not just that a ball that is medium fast with heavy topspin will accelerate off the bounce and end up faster that makes this a harder shot to handle. It is also that the ball will drop sooner as a result of the Magnus Effect on the ball. So there is a smaller window within which to reloop a ball with heavier spin. You have to take it before the arc of the shot pulls the ball down too far which also means you have to take that ball at its fastest speed AND counter the spin. You can't simply wait for the ball to slow down.

This is why there really aren't smashers and drivers at the highest levels. And why most pros will look for rubbers that have a useful spin/speed ratio. Also why ALC blades and all wood blades are so popular for the top players and why ZLC and Super ZLC blades are not.

Jun Mizutani is the only top player I can think of in the top 10 using ZLC. And 1) his top ply is Limba which slows things down some so it plays more like an ALC blade and 2) he likes to back up more than anyone else in the top 10. So that blade may work for his style. Also, he used the JM SZLC for a few tournaments and it seems he went right back the the regular JM blade for competition play. He tried the Super ZLC and something caused him not to stick with it.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

Baal
10-10-2015, 09:22 PM
I very much like composite blades, but i definitely prefer them not too fast. My old black tag Viscarias are not all that fast. But they feel perfect.

Der_Echte
10-10-2015, 11:22 PM
Don't believe the marketing hype. I was joking when I said Bryce HighSpeed was best on the newest Butterfly blade.

Hahhahahahahahaahhahahahahaaaaaaahhhhhh.

Carl.... Joke.... ????!!!!

You gotta be joking.

Say, is that Eddie Murphy over there? Godda go.

UpSideDownCarl
10-11-2015, 12:15 AM
Hahhahahahahahaahhahahahahaaaaaaahhhhhh.

Carl.... Joke.... ????!!!!

You gotta be joking.

Say, is that Eddie Murphy over there? Godda go.

Yeah, I was joking that I was joking.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

Overseer Kevin
10-11-2015, 03:34 AM
I get great spin with the ZJ super zlc. You are right Carl, when the ball is hit properly the ball jumps forward and doesn't rise as much as the opponent expects. I've seen players completely whiff... or be rushed into a bad or weaker shot. I don't plan on being in the top 10 in the world just yet but if I do make it to 2400 or better I think I'll be satisfied. Then I'll bring my s zlc to a club near you :-)

Overseer Kevin
10-11-2015, 03:39 AM
Did der_echte just call me Eddie Murphy? Lol Wish I had Eddie Murphy money. Then I'd buy the $2000 blade tabletennis11.com has. Lol

Overseer Kevin
10-21-2015, 02:52 PM
I got a sheet of tenergy 64fx. It's got a scar on it from hitting the table and split the top sheet near the edge of the rubber. About a 1 inch long crack. It still plays well and doesn't affect anything at all.

My question: Would it be possible to still boost this sheet or not?

UpSideDownCarl
10-21-2015, 04:19 PM
What do you want to boost Tenergy for? You shouldn't need to.

If the tear is such that the two sides of rubber line up then use water based glue and glue them together. A really small amount of glue will hold rubber to rubber well.

If you did that boosting should work but, boosting Tenergy may be a waste of time for you. There are people who do it. But the ones who have a reason to would be having Butterfly send their next shipment of pre boosted Tenergy with the secret handshake.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

Overseer Kevin
10-21-2015, 05:19 PM
Oh. So I need the secret handshake! Hmm... Is that the $100+ handshake?

Actually I just want to see how it plays juiced up. I've never tried it before myself, but I've played against boosted tenergy 05fx.

Killerspintt
10-21-2015, 05:45 PM
Good info, but one correction - FX gives lower arc. You can see it in 05FX most clearly and any of the others if you test it.

Indeed. It can be couter-intuitive but the harder -> the higher throw (all other things equal :D). Its true for a sponge (normal version has higher throw than fx version) but also true for the topsheet (T05 as harder topsheet than T64, same sponge -> higher throw for T05).

You can check the famous Tenergy video the OP is referring to at 6:28, Butterfly also states it.

Overseer Kevin
10-22-2015, 06:46 PM
sure, when the rubber is almost dead and you think it's no longer playable, why not ?

but then again, it's up to you, it's your money, you'll never know til you've tried. This curiosity might haunt you till your death. It's better to try it and report to us for our knowledge too :p

I'm not rich person so I'm too afraid to modify my tensor rubber.

Ok. I'm responding back. Second layer applied. The first layer made the rubber curl within the first 6 hours. I'm using "falco long booster" at 12 hour intervals. Wish me luck. Lol

Overseer Kevin
10-31-2015, 04:27 PM
Ok. Just hit with the boosted t64fx last night. 2 thin layers of falco long booster took about 4-5 days to flatten back down after curling from the booster.

Results:
1. Super super super fast!!!!! Did I mention that it's super fast! Lol The top sheet is like a mini trampoline! The ball literally jumps off the rubber.

2. But the sponge has become too too too soft. Power hits go directly to the blade. I use max thickness for t64fx and it's still going straight through the sponge, right into the blade. You can actually hear a muffled knock sound upon contact.

3. Spin is significantly decreased on loop driving shots. It's going to take some time to get my timing back because I haven't hit in a couple of months due to a knee injury. But loop drives are flying off the table because the spin just isn't there anymore. You have to brush and hit the ball very thin if you want to impart spin. Minimum contact or the ball will sail long.

Recommendations:

Don't boost t64fx or any fx version of tenergy beyond 1 application. I strongly suggest not boosting it at all. The sponge just can't take the pressure. Lol
But if you do, remember that you're going to have to change your stroke on the loop drive from a power stroke to a spin stroke! Just that simple