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maurice101
07-31-2017, 07:10 AM
I have been modifying my forehand stroke to finish at the right eye, straighten the arm a bit on the backswing and to relax the wrist at the beginning of the forward swing and to not to have the index finger go up the bat.

I seem to be getting good spin (for me) but I feel I am lacking power as my shots are blocked back too easily.

Any suggestions??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSV8xLjNpU

spinner24
07-31-2017, 07:42 AM
What is your equipment set up?
Meanwhile, you can practice forehand using little heavy dumbells (like 3lbs/2kgs) to give your arm and muscle a little more strength. My couch had a racket made from metal (really heavy) and he made me practice with it.

Hope this helps

Archosaurus
07-31-2017, 08:01 AM
I don't think it's a matter of physical strength.

I'm not even an intermediate player, so bear in mind who it's coming from when I say it, but:

One thing I can see is that you're lifting your shoulders somewhat. I don't believe that is very good for your neck, or for your power. I have a hunch that your grip might be too tight, as well. You seem to be keeping your wrist cocked forward before impact, as well.

Can you film yourself doing some self-hitting with just the forearm? Stand at the side of the table, drop the ball and then just hit it with your forearm, like so:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBW4kePyrc

It will help the better players here give you advice.

NextLevel
07-31-2017, 08:36 AM
I have been modifying my forehand stroke to finish at the right eye, straighten the arm a bit on the backswing and to relax the wrist at the beginning of the forward swing and to not to have the index finger go up the bat.

I seem to be getting good spin (for me) but I feel I am lacking power as my shots are blocked back too easily.

Any suggestions??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSV8xLjNpU

Being able to play multiple forehands against block is part of the game. IF you need more power, you need to look at ways of generating faster racket head speed. Maybe using your wrist more aggressively as part of a whip motion might help as well as generating faster motion in the core using the lower body. That said, your shot looks respectable and I would just accept it and get better at placing the ball in matches.

The other thing is that if your rubber is modern, you are brushing a bit too much. Modern equipment spins the ball almost automatically so you can open your paddle a little more and hit the ball harder for both speed and spin.

Tinykin
07-31-2017, 08:59 AM
Could not have put it better.
OP, notice how even the top boys' best shots get repeatedly blocked. It's all part of the modern game.
From a technique pov, the important thing is to keep your form in a rally. At this level, one tactic is to simply repeat the shot over and over. I doubt whether your opponents will consistently block 3 shots in a row. If they do, then start thinking about moving him around the table or varying the spin. In your short video you varied the spin a couple of times. Keep practising that technique.

maurice101
07-31-2017, 09:47 AM
Equipment is home modified bent handle butterfly spirit with karis m on the forehand. My coach mentioned my lifting the shoulders in my old stroke so well spotted. I have a restricted wrist movement from a skiing injury that restricts my wrist movement somewhat. I agree I should use more wrist and it is why I use a bent handle bat . I had thought of using a more open racket angle yesterday so thanks for confirming this. I will try to post shadow play of a faster arm speed from a faster core rotation tomorrow. My robot is inconsistent so that lead to varying the spin!!! Thanks for the tips.

NextLevel
07-31-2017, 10:08 AM
Equipment is home modified bent handle butterfly spirit with karis m on the forehand. My coach mentioned my lifting the shoulders in my old stroke so well spotted. I have a restricted wrist movement from a skiing injury that restricts my wrist movement somewhat. I agree I should use more wrist and it is why I use a bent handle bat . I had thought of using a more open racket angle yesterday so thanks for confirming this. I will try to post shadow play of a faster arm speed from a faster core rotation tomorrow. My robot is inconsistent so that lead to varying the spin!!! Thanks for the tips.

If spin is the dominant thing you are looking for, use another rubber. Karis M is more for consistent countering and control and with decent spin.

maurice101
07-31-2017, 10:15 AM
Hi Nextlevel,

What difference would there be comparing karis m to andro R47 in terms of spin and power. I do like the control of karis m though.

NextLevel
07-31-2017, 10:25 AM
Hi Nextlevel,

What difference would there be comparing karis m to andro R47 in terms of spin and power. I do like the control of karis m though.

Try it and experience it yourself. It's honestly the kind of question that is best answered by personal experience. But just about any spinny rubber will suffice.

SFF_lib
07-31-2017, 10:43 AM
I have been modifying my forehand stroke to finish at the right eye, straighten the arm a bit on the backswing and to relax the wrist at the beginning of the forward swing and to not to have the index finger go up the bat.

I seem to be getting good spin (for me) but I feel I am lacking power as my shots are blocked back too easily.

Any suggestions??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSV8xLjNpUI reckon you need to squat down a bit more. If you don't squat down enough your body can not do a full rrotation. also I can see you are not using enough power of your legs. That's why you draw your arm way way back.

By squatting down you can rotate your body more. Then using the power of your legs and body you can spring forward and loop the ball. Check out Ma long's video.

Pay attention to how low he squats down and the movement of his thighs.


https://youtu.be/e7SvDjVYmqw


Passionate about TT

Xylit
07-31-2017, 11:45 AM
Being able to play multiple forehands against block is part of the game. IF you need more power, you need to look at ways of generating faster racket head speed. Maybe using your wrist more aggressively as part of a whip motion might help as well as generating faster motion in the core using the lower body. That said, your shot looks respectable and I would just accept it and get better at placing the ball in matches.

The other thing is that if your rubber is modern, you are brushing a bit too much. Modern equipment spins the ball almost automatically so you can open your paddle a little more and hit the ball harder for both speed and spin.

Exactly what I have thought as well after watching your video sequence.
Your motion in general looks a bit slow and you could hit the ball harder. BUT these topspins look quite good already.

QWERTY Spin
07-31-2017, 01:35 PM
maurice101 thank you for sharing the training clip.
First of your stroke looks good and i wouldnt change equipment.
May i ask why you want to straighten your arm ? a more closed arm is fine on the backswing.

while your movement overall looks good it seems to be a little out of sync. it looks like you use up alot of energy with your stroke. you may stiffen up your body too early so you lose power.
is your forearm relaxed when swinging? you arm looks a little bit stiff while accelerating.
if you keep your ellbow a little closer to your body you can rotate and snap faster into the ball.
also you seem to backswing pretty late and a little bit to excessive. which could screw the contact point in a match by taking the ball to late.
if you take such a long stroke you need a lot of hip and arm acceleration to generate needed energie. you want you hip to rotate and swing your arm with your hip. it looks like you move your hip but you dont generate power from it. your swing is coming from the upper body not in sync with the hip.

- loosen up the upper body (dont grip you blade to tight if you do)
- move your elbow closer to the body work more with the legs
- use your hip to lead the arm and upper body
- accelerate and snap faster with arm and forearm.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpVAPPzj3ZI

in this video you can see how the stroke is pretty short but because of the arm closer to the hip, the hip leading the movement and a shorter faster acceleration the power is still there. the upper and lower body are in sync.


i hope you you understand what i mean and i could help a little. keep up the work !

Clu37
07-31-2017, 01:48 PM
I’m no professional or anything, but the first thing I noticed was how you used your arm more than your body and legs to produce the power from the ball. Power comes from the rotation of the body and position of the legs,not from how fast you move your arm. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you should work on moving into position for every ball that comes, and use your body as the axis of rotation to produce that power you need.

Clu37
07-31-2017, 01:52 PM
In addition, I found a YouTube video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gbnFZWDZ1vU

UpSideDownCarl
07-31-2017, 05:37 PM
I have not read all the comments yet. But there is something I see that could help you. Someone else may have said this. I will find out when I go back to read through.

The first thing I will say is, you are on the right track. If you just keep practicing looping, the mechanics that will help the power will come. You are getting decent spin and things are good enough that, without any changes and with enough practice, things will straighten themselves out.

I did see someone ask why you were trying to get your arm straighter. This is a good question. Your form is decent enough that while you are actually practicing looping you should focus on looping and your ball quality. Not things like arm position.

I saw someone else mention that the timing of body and arm are a little off. It is a good point. It will correct itself over time through practice.

But what I actually think you need to do is watch your left arm. It holds the key. It holds the key to why and how your shoulder raises and also where you are losing power.

Your left arm goes out and down. This shifts your hips and torso from rotation into lateral flexion.

You start turning and shift into shifting your upper body towards the left. I have heard this called "teapoting" where instead of rotating forward the player leans towards the side.

I have seen many high level players do this once in a while. But the basic stroke they have wired into muscle memory is based on rotation of hips and torso. Not lateral flexion. So that sideways movement, for them, may come out once every so often. Whereas, you are working that sideways movement as the primary stroke. And that will limit your power.

The left arm and the lateral displacement are inextricably connected. And as long as that is the primary stroke, your motion is up and to the side rather than rotating forward as the racket goes up.

The way I would work to change that is with SHADOW STROKES in front of a mirror so you can see your form.

Don't focus on it when you are looping. Just practice it in shadow strokes for a while and then over time, see if you can spend a little time trying to get it into your looping for a few minutes at a time.

If you do the rotation instead of the side motion, your left arm should follow your left shoulder and rotate and your left arm should stay up. It should not drop.

I will see if I can make a shadow stroke video some time later to show an exaggeration of what you are doing. And an example of what would add power with less effort.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

maurice101
07-31-2017, 08:42 PM
Wow, lots of good points. Much thanks for all the posters and lots to think about and practice. The left arm advice is very insightful and something that could be easy to add to the stroke. Why is staying low such hard work. Sigh!

maurice101
08-01-2017, 02:30 AM
My first attempts to keep my left arm level in the rotation, keep lower in my stance, and use more power from my legs.
I see I am finishing more to the left but the rotation feels and seems better? Still not relaxed.


https://youtu.be/mlJ69Vb3pfE"
https://youtu.be/TN_2DJasR7Y

Archosaurus
08-01-2017, 02:36 AM
Knowing that you have a wrist injury, I can't give you advice for your right arm. My point about the wrist can be just ignored, because I assumed your wrist is fine. Someone who knows better can talk about that.

However what I DO see is that you're LIFTING your left arm and keeping it there with your muscles. Completely relax your arm and just bend it by your stomach, and see what it does to your stroke.

I saw from some other videos that your ready position is a position with your racket in the middle of your centerline, and both of your arms up and grasping the racket. I think this left arm issue has something to do with that habit.

Clu37
08-01-2017, 01:56 PM
I see the rotation is a lot better, but the left arm, as many people have been saying, is too high and stiff. Use it as a guide and for balance, not another playing hand. That hand should be at around belly-button/abdomen level. Your shoulders are a bit stiff, and I think you’re a bit too square on the table. You should try to make sudden adjustments to every ball that comes. Also, unless it makes you uncomfortable, you should wear shoes since they provide that support when making those adjustments. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I can’t stand playing table tennis with sandles on. My feet keep sliding!

UpSideDownCarl
08-02-2017, 12:26 AM
Also, unless it makes you uncomfortable, you should wear shoes since they provide that support when making those adjustments. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I can’t stand playing table tennis with sandles on. My feet keep sliding!

I was going to be a clown and make a joke about the foot gear. But, since it is already well spotted, I will just strengthen the statement.

The footwear is actually messing with your leg and hip movement.

However, I will say, the change you made is not so easy. You are now rotating. That is the important point. When I get a chance I will try and make the shadow video that shows how you should practice shadow strokes to help what you do on your robot.

For now, the info about being more relaxed is paramount. Focus on that first.


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EvilOctopus
08-02-2017, 12:49 AM
you would be able to utilize the power in your legs better if you had a more side on stance than you currently do. This should result in more of your leg power contributing towards you arm going forward. IN addition to that I think a looser forearm would help you generate more speed with your arm.

maurice101
08-02-2017, 02:48 AM
I really tried to relax my left arm in my latest attempt. (no sandles and even a proper table tennis shirt!!) I must admit it is a lot easier to focus on the left hand rather than to try to not raise the right shoulder in the stroke. Very smart coaching Carl. One coach taught me to reach across the body with my left arm to aid body rotation which I see has messed me up. I still look too upright and my stance is not low enough. I will try the not so parallel to the table tip to get more leg and hip action.


https://youtu.be/TomGxVCdl94

yogi_bear
08-02-2017, 02:56 AM
body needs to be more relaxed and bending your body a little more forward. In terms of contact with the ball and racket, there should be more sponge compression aside from brushing. The timing also helps, you are taking the ball a bit late. Hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier.

ttmonster
08-02-2017, 03:50 AM
You have shown great improvement from your first video to the last one ... I would say focus on relaxing the upper body and keeping your shoulder low , just dropping the elbow to its normal level and snapping with forearm will help ... I am not sure if your wrist injury will become worse but normally in the standard forehand stroke you don't need to put conscious power from the wrist , you just need to release the wrist at the end of the forearm snap ... I would say at this point relaxation is priority one and it should automatically help in lowering the elbow ... the power should come from the waist snap and the forearm snap not from the shoulder ... if you can ignore the silliness the rest of the technical advice in the videos by this coach is just fine ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbnFZWDZ1vU

UpSideDownCarl
08-02-2017, 05:12 AM
Here, a video about what is going on. I got a chance to make it tonight.


https://youtu.be/rYWGcM7bzXk

I can't emphasize enough how shadow strokes could really help you with so many of the details that are almost there, but have hitches in them. I recommend you see if you can practice shadow strokes in front of a mirror so you can see what you are doing. When a person can see what they are doing while practicing shadow strokes, it makes it so much easier to change things in a productive way.

I love practicing shadow strokes. And it is cool how it really actually helps your strokes.


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maurice101
08-02-2017, 08:53 PM
Much thanks for taking the effort to post a video. I can see my elbow is much higher than your shadow stroke. ttmonsters tip of relaxation could be a key. Is there a difference in elbow height in comparing the European style forehand vs the Chinese style? If I straighten my arm somewhat for whip in the backswing then the elbow is higher than a bent arm stroke??? Shadow swings coming...

ttmonster
08-02-2017, 09:08 PM
There are multiple videos by NextLevel and Brett Clarke to explain the whip and what is optimal and what is not ... I will try to find some for you when I can ... may be sooner than later ....

the key thing in any table tennis stroke is to keep the tension in your core, which helps in getting power from a more stable source , and then also prevents too much follow through that might cause imbalance ...

one thing about european and chinese style that I would like to mention here is really there is no two different styles , its more a collaborative efffort that has helped in evolving the technique as we now by efforts on both sides of the aisles ... I don't want to go into too much details ... there are threads on this very forum explaining that evolution ...

on any stroke your elbow should ideally be at a natural level , hanging from your shoulder ... it can be closer to the body it can be farther from the body but the key is that you should not be pulling the shoulder up to adjust to an incoming ball ...

somebody , I think most likely Larry Hodges said, if after a training session on table tennis anything other than your legs are sore , you must be doing something wrong ... keep that in mind ,its an excellent thumb rule indicator to know if there is any correction technique necessary ...


Much thanks for taking the effort to post a video. I can see my elbow is much higher than your shadow stroke. ttmonsters tip of relaxation could be a key. Is there a difference in elbow height in comparing the European style forehand vs the Chinese style? If I straighten my arm somewhat for whip in the backswing then the elbow is higher than a bent arm stroke??? Shadow swings coming...

yogi_bear
08-03-2017, 06:49 AM
i would still say your posture is hindering you from easily rotating your body. your posture is a little too straight and it also tenses your back muscles resulting to a partially stiff movement or rotation. lean a little bit forward and bend a little downwards. it could help a lot in your body rotation.

maurice101
08-04-2017, 05:03 AM
Shadow play. Trying to focus on staying low, forward lean, relaxed left arm, the right shoulder not lifting, whip at beginning of stroke, finish position at right eye, being more relaxed.

No wonder table tennis is so hard!

I see I am still too upright even though my head said I was leaning forward. This habit is going to take a lot of work to correct.


https://youtu.be/7Fq-NQ7oQOY
(https://youtu.be/VfHNZpmwFsU)

Archosaurus
08-04-2017, 05:44 AM
You're making a lot of changes fast. I think it's good progress. When you try to transition this stroke to a drill stroke, you'll fall back to your old habits because it feels right. Just keep at it.

Were you ever an athlete or received some kind of training, if I may ask?

ttmonster
08-04-2017, 05:50 AM
I think you are good with your body position. My understanding is the whip is not the initiating motion , the initiating motion is the hip snap , the forearm snap / whip when you contact the ball , so lets say when your hip is towards the end of its snap the whip motion should initiate ... oh and one more advise ignore the naysayer Archo , he is just jealous you made so much progress in so little time :p

Archosaurus
08-04-2017, 06:38 AM
@ttmonster You need to work on your reading comprehension, because I'm supporting Maurice.

ttmonster
08-04-2017, 06:47 AM
these not the most supportive words my friend .... when you try to support people you say positive things not scare them off ... criticism is only good when its constructive and/or directed towards self to a certain healthy limit ...

When you try to transition this stroke to a drill stroke, you'll fall back to your old habits because it feels right



@ttmonster You need to work on your reading comprehension, because I'm supporting Maurice.

Archosaurus
08-04-2017, 06:51 AM
So where is the issue? Do you think he will perfectly ingrain the stroke with little effort?

Well, maybe. It's not impossible...

ttmonster
08-04-2017, 06:55 AM
No thats not the point , its good that you are supporting him , give positive feedback , point out the things he needs to work on and wish him good luck ... you think the guy who is intelligent enough and has hand eye coordination better than most of us so much so that he can correct his form so quickly does not know that shadow stroke will take time to transition onto table play, then game play and then match play ... why point out the obvious and scare him unnecessarily ... anyways I don't want to hijack the thread , so no more on this here ... if you want we can take our fight to the daily table tennis thread , the mother load of hijacking ...

So where is the issue? Do you think he will perfectly ingrain the stroke with little effort?

Well, maybe. It's not impossible...

gtardy80
08-04-2017, 08:48 AM
nice thread.. good for me as begginer

maurice101
08-04-2017, 08:57 AM
I am not athletic and I know it will take ages to integrate the shadow form into my game. Even the stance issue of not leaning forward enough is going to be difficult to consistently do in a match. Give me 6 months though....

I have made a big breakthrough on my backhand topspin recently. I had just one lesson with Brett Clark when I visited Melbourne and he really helped me wait longer for the ball and do a better whip action.

ttmonster
08-04-2017, 09:24 AM
this is great infomation maurice , I would really advise seriously , take another trip to melbourne and get rest of the forehand form fixed , you have made a lot of progress and really we can only help so much , there is nothing like in person coaching especially for the basics

I am not athletic and I know it will take ages to integrate the shadow form into my game. Even the stance issue of not leaning forward enough is going to be difficult to consistently do in a match. Give me 6 months though....

I have made a big breakthrough on my backhand topspin recently. I had just one lesson with Brett Clark when I visited Melbourne and he really helped me wait longer for the ball and do a better whip action.

yogi_bear
08-04-2017, 10:38 AM
your toes should not be pointing straight, position them in such a way they point a little bit diagonal to left and to the right. just keep on practicing and you will be able to coordinate and simultaneously twist your body when doing back swing.

ttmonster
08-04-2017, 10:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3667739361&feature=iv&src_vid=_q1BmuQEGp0&v=iR_ll18VZg8

Jabugo
08-04-2017, 03:22 PM
body needs to be more relaxed and bending your body a little more forward. In terms of contact with the ball and racket, there should be more sponge compression aside from brushing. The timing also helps, you are taking the ball a bit late. Hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier.

Yes, I'm with Yogi. I noticed something about the timing too. The movement looks stiff. There's no need to be athletic, but with the ball contact, you should be able to feel it. Snap is a good idea, but perhaps take it a bit slower first. Slow the ball feed interval down, and slow all your movements down. You'll relax and be less tense. Hit the balls with ease and try to feel it. As Yogi said, get sponge engagement. Get the timing down with a slow speed first. Then gradually build up your speed. Timing will take longer to get down if you are moving at full speed. With the slower speed, you can also isolate your movements, arm first, then add torso, and then legs. Then, still using the slow speed intervals, have the ball fed alternating center and right but use only forehand. That will train your ability to move into position with proper footwork before each stroke. Without this last bit of training, you'll never be able to get into position for proper ball contact. When you get all of this down, then increase the speed.

Der_Echte
08-04-2017, 06:46 PM
@ttmonster You need to work on your reading comprehension, because I'm supporting Maurice.

Archo, you will buy the chicken and beer (if you were old enough in USA, but you are in Korea) for ttmonster 1000 out of 1000 times trying to bark up that tree. All the time while he snickers like Muttley with the Goon Squad.

ttmonster has English comprehension, composition, and verbal skills that easily exceed the average native speaker.

To give you the proper credit, your English is damned outstanding too, non-native English speaker or not, in both absolut or comparative subjective terms.

Der_Echte
08-04-2017, 06:51 PM
From a glance at the quick shadow stroke drill, the OP is using way too long movements and is holding each successive muscle WAY too long to make the whole chain off time and not multiply force each step of the way. His muscle engagement route basically has his muscles getting in the way of each other.

To be fair, it is damned difficult to get this right the first year learning, or even the 5th. That is why many coaches compromise and first show a shortened version close to the table with few moving parts. That is also a fine way - a progressive path to the full stroke for a FH.

Archosaurus
08-04-2017, 08:05 PM
@Der_Echte

I wasn't serious about ttmonster's reading comprehension skills. I knew what he was talking about. I'm just making sure that I'm not completely misunderstood. In no way am I trying to discourage Maurice or put him down. It's really great to see such progress.

@Jabugo

Arm first and torso last???!!!

I would suggest getting the torso rotation right first, then adding the arm and legs in. Then again what the hell do I know.

maurice101
08-04-2017, 09:32 PM
Yep how many times have I been told to slow down!!! Back to doing some slow shadow swings and bringing more awareness to relaxation, and the flow from one movement to the other. Thanks for all the tips.

ttmonster
08-04-2017, 09:49 PM
@maurice101 : Don't worry it will all fall in place with time , you are doing just fine ... all roads lead to Rome ( if you walk long enough ) :)

Yep how many times have I been told to slow down!!! Back to doing some slow shadow swings and bringing more awareness to relaxation, and the flow from one movement to the other. Thanks for all the tips.

UpSideDownCarl
08-05-2017, 12:11 AM
Shadow play. Trying to focus on staying low, forward lean, relaxed left arm, the right shoulder not lifting, whip at beginning of stroke, finish position at right eye, being more relaxed.

No wonder table tennis is so hard!

I see I am still too upright even though my head said I was leaning forward. This habit is going to take a lot of work to correct.


https://youtu.be/7Fq-NQ7oQOY
(https://youtu.be/VfHNZpmwFsU)

I think you may have misunderstood my instructions to some extent.

1) You should practice shadow strokes in front of a mirror so you can see yourself. If you can see yourself, self correction of the strokes will start happening naturally. You will see things you are doing wrong and simply correct as you practice.

2) you should do several THOUSAND. Several thousand several days in a row. Like say, 2,000-4,000 for 4 of the next 6 days. I know that sounds like a lot. But say you make 45 strokes per minute going at a relaxed pace: at that rate you will do a little less than 3,000 in 60 min. If the pace was faster, say, 75 per minute which is not that fast still, then in just about 50 min you would do just short of 4,000.

Here is a different video. I am doing shadow strokes with footwork. When your stroke is decent, you can start adding footwork. But for now, what I am showing you this for is for you to see how the mirror helps.


https://youtu.be/JMUgZJWxQfI

BTW: in this video, with the footwork, I am doing the stroke at a pace of 56 stokes per minute.

I have definitely done workouts of 90 min of shadow stroke + footwork drills at a higher pace than this many many times. That will definitely be a good cardio workout for anyone.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl
08-05-2017, 12:28 AM
By the way, I do not think you need to slow down. You just need to do the shadow strokes while watching yourself do them. And you need to relax more. Try to get racket speed from the elbow and not try to force and muscle it.

That video with the female instructor that Monster posted, somewhere in the middle of that video, they show her actually looping. I will get you a time later. Watch it. Watch how relaxed she is and how fast her arm whips as a result.


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UpSideDownCarl
08-05-2017, 12:38 AM
You have shown great improvement from your first video to the last one ... I would say focus on relaxing the upper body and keeping your shoulder low , just dropping the elbow to its normal level and snapping with forearm will help ... I am not sure if your wrist injury will become worse but normally in the standard forehand stroke you don't need to put conscious power from the wrist , you just need to release the wrist at the end of the forearm snap ... I would say at this point relaxation is priority one and it should automatically help in lowering the elbow ... the power should come from the waist snap and the forearm snap not from the shoulder ... if you can ignore the silliness the rest of the technical advice in the videos by this coach is just fine ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbnFZWDZ1vU

Here is Monster's post.


https://youtu.be/gbnFZWDZ1vU

It is a good video. At about 4:08 the girl is counterhitting. At 4:16 she starts looping. Particularly watch the looping. She is so relaxed. Look for that in your shadow strokes.

And the whole video is good.


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