PDA

View Full Version : FH vs Backspin tips



J Bus
09-19-2022, 07:33 AM
Hello fellow Table Tennis addicts.

Just looking to get some constructive feedback on my FH loops vs backspin. Any and all tips welcome.

My current opinion is I can lift most backspin balls regardless of spin but lack speed and penetrating power to put a lot of my stronger opponents under pressure. I likely have to incorporate more body into the shot but maybe you guys can articulate how I can do this better.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/iLB5cKgWd_Q?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0

Gozo
09-19-2022, 07:58 AM
Hello fellow Table Tennis addicts.

Just looking to get some constructive feedback on my FH loops vs backspin. Any and all tips welcome.

My current opinion is I can lift most backspin balls regardless of spin but lack speed and penetrating power to put a lot of my stronger opponents under pressure. I likely have to incorporate more body into the shot but maybe you guys can articulate how I can do this better.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/iLB5cKgWd_Q?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0
Looks pretty decent to me. If you thinking of FZD type power looping, get real. Yours is pretty decent. What you can to improve is get back into ready position faster and then power-drive to win the point. Do not think of those one loop one kill, not at our amateur level. You may need to rally to win the point. Happy Pongin!

vossi39
09-19-2022, 09:17 AM
My short analysis?
Too much shoulder, not enough fore arm and wrist movement. The ones which are going into the net, are the ones, where your trainings partner generated more backspin.

My suggestion to get better: Stop focusing on hip rotation and upper body work for a moment. Use multi ball feeding and concentrate to overcome backspin only with forearm and wrist acceleration. Once this works stable you can easily add the hip and weight transfer to gain the last 10%. But 90% of the spin is generated in forearm and wrist. If possible try to shorten the stroke.

Keep going and if practicing, try to finish the point as was mentioned by Gozo. It is important to have this followup through as part of your exercise. I believe you did this for the video to focus on the loop, but as mentioned, getting in to the ready position after the stroke should be part of the every exercise.

pingpongpaddy
09-19-2022, 10:19 AM
Hello fellow Table Tennis addicts.

Just looking to get some constructive feedback on my FH loops vs backspin. Any and all tips welcome.

My current opinion is I can lift most backspin balls regardless of spin but lack speed and penetrating power to put a lot of my stronger opponents under pressure. I likely have to incorporate more body into the shot but maybe you guys can articulate how I can do this better.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/iLB5cKgWd_Q?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0
hi j
simple
practice with somebody who can chop! your partner either cant or wont. This is a very casual attempt with a lot of errors
Or, get somebody to give you backspin multiball-. You have a reasonable general idea but a year or so of proper practice will make a huge difference
then try for 20 shot rally consistency with someone who can give you a heavy ball
Then you can make a video with some meat in it
good luck

latej
09-19-2022, 11:19 AM
You are a tall guy, I like how you get low nicely.

There was this video I can't find for the life of me. Basically a stick (=body), with another stick (=arm) attached. Now body/stick rotates, and the arm/stick swings. Try to put more of this into your stroke. Now it feels like your arm moves synchronous with the body rotation, sort of connected. Not as a result of the body rotation. The difference is not big, but it will make your arm swing faster. You've already done the heavy part. Don't be discouraged.

You could try to stay wider with your left foot, maybe even sacrifice some "getting low" for that. I don't see this clearly, you can experiment. As Gozo mentioned, your back-swing follows the same trajectory back, you can save some time if your elbow goes down and to body - more neutral position first, in match you won't know what's coming. Cheers.

strangeloops
09-19-2022, 04:10 PM
Trying to get more power into topspin strokes by force is a very easy mistake to make. There is a limit to how much effort you should put into a single shot, and putting more only leads to having too much tension and being unable to recover properly. I think it is much better to practice with the focus of being more efficient with the strokes, rather than being more powerful. If you learn to make the shots with less effort, then putting the extra power will be easy.So first more efficient strokes, and then more power, and repeat.
I see that you turn a lot in your strokes, but I think that your body doesn’t quite know what to do with all that turning, and it won’t generate the expected racket speed. Turn less, so your body has easier time learning how to be efficient.Someone else can comment on the technique.

loerting
09-20-2022, 10:39 AM
Try to have your center of gravity more in front of your body while doing a topspin. Also you should play more "whip"-like. Your rotational movement seems a bit too linear. Be more loose and swing your arm.

Tinykin
09-20-2022, 09:28 PM
My observation is that your serve is not very spinny thus you are receiving mostly light, floaty spin in return.
For the serve, try to really spin heavily and place the ball short to your partner. He will then be able to return the ball faster, with more spin plus be able to place the ball wider to you. This will allow you to practice, speed of reset after the serve and your footwork.

J Bus
09-21-2022, 05:08 AM
Thanks for all the feedback guys.
So points to work on

Use the Body rotation to almost drag the arm behind creating whip like motion rather than both body and arm moving in sync
When practising use short almost ghost serves for better loop vs backspin practice
Centre of Gravity leaning more forward instead of leaning straight up?
Focus more on creating spin with forearm/wrist control rather than power from body movement.
Work on/practice follow up stroke after the loop for overall stroke efficiency.

Does that about sum it up?

Der_Echte
09-21-2022, 08:07 AM
I am with Herr Vossi on this one. OP is using too much upper arm and shoulder. This is VERY TYPICAL of male players trying to get more FH power.

This will sound counter intuitive, but being looser and NOT tightening shoulder will let you amplify, pass along, and transmit power to the ball in the result of a fast bat and firming of grip at impact.

You have to discover for yourself how to stay loose. You have to discover how to NOT tighten shoulder and move it together with upper arm. This is preventing an effective whip. You have to discover the sequence and timing of your mini explosions that will generate the kinetic energy, pass it along and how to time your tightening. You have to discover how to read the ball, know where it is going with what, so you can get "there" to establish the strike zone and make your shot of choice.

Developing male players always seem to want to tighten up when going for more power. You have to do the opposite. You should generate power that looks effortless. You are getting down well, but over emphasizing the waist and shoulders, so your body is kinda fighting against itself. This is a good way to develop a stress injury.

I am not even getting into the nuances of the swing plane and adjustments, just discussing power generation and delivery to the ball.

Find your own way to stay loose and not have a mentality to strain for power, it should come as a result of better timing being loose.

pingpongpaddy
09-21-2022, 09:50 AM
re loose fh technique
I try to imagine the olympic discus thrower as an example of the legs driving the loose swinging arm efficiently

Lula
09-21-2022, 09:57 AM
Try doing everything more explosive and stop when you are going to hit the ball. Can not start the stroke when the ball already sits on the racket, especially against backspin. You get the spin from the forearm so i think you can try to use it more aswell. I believe spin is as important as power, or even more important.

If you would do some multiball you could almost disregard the thoughts about technique and just go from the results you are getting. Much harder to go full out and try some things when you are playing one and one and the opponent need to collect the ball if you miss.

Good luck.

latej
09-21-2022, 11:11 AM
PERFORMANCE BIOMECHANICS ACADEMY TABLE TENNIS (https://www.youtube.com/c/PERFORMANCEBIOMECHANICSACADEMYTABLETENNIS/videos)
TTNuri Table Tennis Nuri (https://www.youtube.com/c/cultcho/videos)

Just in case.

strangeloops
09-21-2022, 03:56 PM
Thanks for all the feedback guys.
So points to work on

Use the Body rotation to almost drag the arm behind creating whip like motion rather than both body and arm moving in sync
When practising use short almost ghost serves for better loop vs backspin practice
Centre of Gravity leaning more forward instead of leaning straight up?
Focus more on creating spin with forearm/wrist control rather than power from body movement.
Work on/practice follow up stroke after the loop for overall stroke efficiency.

Does that about sum it up?
I think that what Der_Echte said covers most of these points. You must learn how to connect the power generated by your legs to the swing of the arm. Avoid tension in your arm and shoulder. As you swing, you should feel the weight of your arm and shoulder, and you should feel the weight of the racket with your hand.

Starting your strokes with a more whip like motion generates power with lesser effort from shoulder, which helps you to stay loose.

Having the centre of gravity forwards makes it easier to direct the force forwards, which helps you to stay loose.

Being loose allows you to use your forearm/wrist to generate more spin.

Being loose means less tension in the shoulder and arm slowing down the recovery, which makes the follow up stroke possible/easier.

Being loose also makes it easier to adjust the stroke. It is important to realize that developing powerful strokes takes a lot of practice, and trying too hard breaks the technique very easily. Moreover, you also have to adjust to your own speed, so sudden increase in power might not even be a good thing. This is why I think it is better to put more focus on good technique than on the result, and let the power develop gradually with practice.

fzambetta
09-22-2022, 12:10 PM
I absolutely love Der_Echte's notion that you must discover how to stay loose.
While most good players or coaches will tell you something like that, it is something you need to discover as it needs to be adapted to your own body biomechanics (yes, while there are general principles our bodies differ to a small or large extent).

Other than all the points made above, the importance of breathing correctly to help stay loose should not be underestimated.
I have learnt this the hard way.

latej
09-23-2022, 10:47 AM
Other than all the points made above, the importance of breathing correctly to help stay loose should not be underestimated.
I have learnt this the hard way.

Very good point, imo. It also made me curious, why/how improper breathing got you somewhere, where you needed the hard way out? Care to elaborate, if it's not too personal?

fzambetta
09-23-2022, 11:31 PM
Very good point, imo. It also made me curious, why/how improper breathing got you somewhere, where you needed the hard way out? Care to elaborate, if it's not too personal?
No problem at all, I am happy to explain what I meant.

​​​​​​Breathing is intimately connected with relaxing, which is incidentally how you get to generate the most power in your strokes.

If you don't breath correctly, in and out, then you are not focusing your power explosively and then relaxing as you are supposed to.
You run into the risk of tensing up and hence not generating power correctly or, even worse, of getting injured.

A video on Tom Lodziak's channel makes some great points about all this.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/C2JRWsTGOZw?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0
​​​
Dora Kurimay's book (https://www.amazon.com.au/Your-Game-Face-Like-Pros-ebook/dp/B00KE9YPSU)also references some of this and it covers all manner of points relating to relaxation techniques, mental preparedness, developing your own routine when playing, etc.
All those facts of the game are linked and they concur to playing better table tennis by allowing you to focus on strategy while making the best of your existing technical skills (at least IMHO, I feel that when I am relaxed my cognitive load is lower so I can think "at a higher level" and everything just flows, falls in place).

PS=I learnt all this the hard way as I initially made the typical mistake of trying to generate more power by tensing up/producing brute force hits. I lost so many matches I should have won, it'd be hard to count!
Understanding the power of relaxation and breathing well was key to improving, as well as developing serve/match startegies and my own game routine.
​​​​​

fzambetta
09-24-2022, 01:11 AM
Hello fellow Table Tennis addicts.



Out of curiosity, where in Australia are you?
That place looks somewhat familiar...😅

latej
09-24-2022, 10:31 AM
There was this video I can't find for the life of me. Basically a stick (=body), with another stick (=arm) attached. Now body/stick rotates, and the arm/stick swings. Try to put more of this into your stroke. Now it feels like your arm moves synchronous with the body rotation, sort of connected. Not as a result of the body rotation. The difference is not big, but it will make your arm swing faster. You've already done the heavy part. Don't be discouraged.

That's the video I couldn't find. (https://youtu.be/DL5CTIoHY5U?t=204)


Trying to get more power into topspin strokes by force is a very easy mistake to make. There is a limit to how much effort you should put into a single shot, and putting more only leads to having too much tension and being unable to recover properly.

I re-read your post, it came after mine. It may be a coincidence, and, also possible, you misunderstood what I was trying to say when I said: "Try to put more of this into your stroke.".

It's easy to see the mechanics of golf stroke, baseball stroke, tennis stroke, TT stroke, and even stroke like gjaku-tsuki in karate is the same. And it can't be other than the same, simply because the body is the body. We know the stroke is a sequence, people say kinetic chain. For me, because of where I come from, if I had to pick the most important part in the sequence related to power-transfer, then it is the hips.

NDH
09-24-2022, 01:04 PM
Late to the party on this one as well!

Not sure I can add much to what’s already been said….. But when has that stopped me! 😂

As a fellow tall guy (I’m 6ft 4), getting low is great….. But if you can’t recover for the next shot, it’s a bit useless.

I’d like to see you continuing to loop after that first shot, because it feels like you are at 60-70% on the first one, with a long follow through (a bit like Golf…. Holding the pose).

Us tall chaps have a great advantage when it comes to reaching wide balls and getting good shots in - We can still get a full loop when stretching, where shorter people would struggle.

We clearly have downsides as well, but let’s not talk about our weaknesses! 😂

The biggest thing I’d say for you is to relax your grip a little (you hold the bat very high, and you can see how far on the backhand rubber your finger is).

When you do this, it makes it very hard to generate extra spin and speed from your wrist, and you are never going to get it just from your arm….. Which is what is happening here.

Now, I know I’ve shown this video many times before (sorry to the regular viewers), but it helps showing what I’m trying to explain.

I also like the fact you have 2 opposites of the table tennis technique.

Myself (red shirt), plays a more European technique and has strength and size to work with (less speed and footwork).

My partner (black shirt) is more of a Chinese style and size…..

So hopefully people watching can see it from both sides.

Watch my forehand though, it’s very often a “whippy” FH where I drop the wrist and whip it through.

Note - I’m not saying anything you see in the video is perfect from a professional level. There are a million things I, and my partner can improve.

However, I feel videos like this can be more… Accessible to most people, rather than seeing Professionals do the drills (if that makes sense).

The level you see in this video is attainable by the every day person (providing they get coaching of course!)
https://www.youtube.com/embed/m0q5lO9DaXg?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0

J Bus
09-24-2022, 01:46 PM
@Fzambetta I play at DVTTA in Melbourne, Victoria.

@NDH, Thanks for posting the video. The whippyness you're talking about I can see so I'm going to try and emulate it at training and record myself. Also will do the loop then topspin to show my recovery/ stroke process.

I have some issues holding the bat I think because my hands/fingers are quite long. If i put my right index finger straight when I hold the bat, the first joint in my index finger is almost over the end of the bat. I can almost bend my finger around the edge at the first joint so subcociously I think i have it aimed more upwards instead of straight so the full finger is on the back of the bat. I can defiently hold the bat more loosely like i do when i serve which will give me more mobility to be loose, so i'll give that a shot.

Thanks for the input guys.

NDH
09-24-2022, 02:19 PM
I have some issues holding the bat I think because my hands/fingers are quite long. If i put my right index finger straight when I hold the bat, the first joint in my index finger is almost over the end of the bat. I can almost bend my finger around the edge at the first joint so subcociously I think i have it aimed more upwards instead of straight so the full finger is on the back of the bat. I can defiently hold the bat more loosely like i do when i serve which will give me more mobility to be loose, so i'll give that a shot.

Thanks for the input guys.
I appreciate this is not an “overnight” change, but I hold the bat much lower down on the handle.

I find it gives me more options down the line, and helps the transition to backhand.

It would also help if you have bigger hands.

But…. Changing the grip is quite a big thing, and I only hold it this way because my coach recommended it about 20 years ago.

strangeloops
09-24-2022, 02:41 PM
I can't post links



I re-read your post, it came after mine. It may be a coincidence, and, also possible, you misunderstood what I was trying to say when I said: "Try to put more of this into your stroke.".

It's easy to see the mechanics of golf stroke, baseball stroke, tennis stroke, TT stroke, and even stroke like gjaku-tsuki in karate is the same. And it can't be other than the same, simply because the body is the body. We know the stroke is a sequence, people say kinetic chain. For me, because of where I come from, if I had to pick the most important part in the sequence related to power-transfer, then it is the hips.
My post was meant to be a response to the OP, not to your post.What I wanted to tell is that it is usually easier to learn technique with smaller adjustments that make the strokes less straining, rather than trying to produce more power, and that the same applies to the use of body. I think it is better to start with a little body turn to get the feel for how it should work, and increase the amount once it becomes consistent enough. You know the technique is good when it produces good results with minimal effort, so that is what you should be aiming for.In general I favor the use of body rotation in forehand strokes, and the way in which it described in the video you linked is very simple and effective, even though I think it is not really that simple.

latej
09-24-2022, 03:39 PM
My post was meant to be a response to the OP, not to your post.[/p]What I wanted to tell is that it is usually easier to learn technique with smaller adjustments that make the strokes less straining, rather than trying to produce more power, and that the same applies to the use of body. I think it is better to start with a little body turn to get the feel for how it should work, and increase the amount once it becomes consistent enough. You know the technique is good when it produces good results with minimal effort, so that is what should be aimed for.[p]In general I favor the use of body rotation in forehand strokes, and the way in which it described in the video you linked is very simple and effective, even though I think it is not really that simple.

Thanks for your explanation.

Yes, I also think it is not that simple. Only mentally it is simple to check and feel, that your hips are pre-rotated (rel. to arm).

Der_Echte
09-24-2022, 06:01 PM
FZ is discussions something so under-discussed and important about breathing and the links to performance. There ought to be more talk about this.

Der_Echte
09-24-2022, 06:02 PM
People fight against their own body with poor biomechanics or trying to generate power wrong way wrong time, but poor breathing is another way people fight against their own body.

fzambetta
09-25-2022, 09:36 AM
@Fzambetta I play at DVTTA in Melbourne, Victoria.


I thought I had seen that place before, been there a couple of times even though I have never regularly played there 😅

I live in Sunbury and played at the Sunbury and Sunhine TTAs for a few years.
After the COVID lockdowns though, I have been playing in Coburg and I have more recently started the new summer pennant in Airport West (about a month ago).

fzambetta
09-25-2022, 09:48 AM
FZ is discussions something so under-discussed and important about breathing and the links to performance. There ought to be more talk about this.
@Der_Echte, I could not agree more!

I find that most coaches, even really great ones, tend to overemphasise technique while downplaying psychological, match strategyl aspects and/or topics sitting a the fringe like breathing (part physical and part mental).
Don't get me wrong, technique is absolutely critical but just honing great shots is not going to be enough to win matches.

I feel my performance has been hindered for so long by a lack of a systematic approach to match play (including match strategy, and a proper approach to relaxing, keeping cool in a match, things that are all connected).
Dora Kurimay's book is an excellent intro to the topic albeit one of a very few, as far as I can tell.

Be happy to start a new thread if others are keen to discuss such topics 😅

pingpongpaddy
09-25-2022, 09:28 PM
@Der_Echte, I could not agree more!

I find that most coaches, even really great ones, tend to overemphasise technique while downplaying psychological, match strategyl aspects and/or topics sitting a the fringe like breathing (part physical and part mental).
Don't get me wrong, technique is absolutely critical but just honing great shots is not going to be enough to win matches.

I feel my performance has been hindered for so long by a lack of a systematic approach to match play (including match strategy, and a proper approach to relaxing, keeping cool in a match, things that are all connected).
Dora Kurimay's book is an excellent intro to the topic albeit one of a very few, as far as I can tell.

Be happy to start a new thread if others are keen to discuss such topics 😅
FZ
Do you not consider Breathing to be part of Technique?
I am currently coaching someone who is currently becoming interested in matchplay and tactics, but is constantly stymied by his errors in implementation due to unsound technique.
Tactics is always fascinating but sound technique is the bedrock of success and must come first

fzambetta
09-26-2022, 03:52 AM
@pingpongpaddy, I consider proper breathing as part of both technique and more broadly approaching a game strategically.

The reason for that is that proper breathing allows you to be calmer hence not only performing technique better and
/or with more power, but also allowing to think more clearly about your game plan (being more relaxed helps with reducing cognitive load).

As I said, the book I have referenced, details all this in the different area of one's game (of course, including technique).

PS=Absolutely no argument from me about having to have very sound technique. There is pretty much no limit to how much technical work one can do, and I absolutely love doing it. I have two technical training sessions a week, in fact (that's how much I love that sort of thing) 😅

My point was though that once you start having a sound enough technique (say as an intermediate to advanced player) you need to start worrying about match strategy and all those mental aspects and details that fall in between.

latej
09-26-2022, 08:22 PM
My point was though that once you start having a sound enough technique (say as an intermediate to advanced player) you need to start worrying about match strategy and all those mental aspects and details that fall in between.


@Der_Echte, I could not agree more!

Be happy to start a new thread if others are keen to discuss such topics 😅

L1: Everything depends on equipment. Equipment is everything. We need the proper hardness, thickness, pimple pattern, sponge structure and the blade must exactly match it.

L2: It's the stroke. It must be perfect. We must get low enough, we must transfer the force, and everything must feel smooth as silk.

L3: It's about the movement, you idiot. We finally escape the valid cage of "strokes" to realize the space of space. Equilibrium: The geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically predictable element. :-)

L4: The strategy. The ability to concentrate, to adapt, to change. Breathing is here. Full serve utilization too.

L5: Chi! Flow! Nothing!

I can't say much on L4 and above because I am only knocking on L3 :-)

I wrote all this BS so that you start the THREAD! :-) I trust that Der, and others, will participate there.

pingpongpaddy
09-26-2022, 10:03 PM
L1: Everything depends on equipment. Equipment is everything. We need the proper hardness, thickness, pimple pattern, sponge structure and the blade must exactly match it.

L2: It's the stroke. It must be perfect. We must get low enough, we must transfer the force, and everything must feel smooth as silk.

L3: It's about the movement, you idiot. We finally escape the valid cage of "strokes" to realize the space of space. Equilibrium: The geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically predictable element. :-)

L4: The strategy. The ability to concentrate, to adapt, to change. Breathing is here. Full serve utilization too.

L5: Chi! Flow! Nothing!

I can't say much on L4 and above because I am only knocking on L3 :-)

I wrote all this BS so that you start the THREAD! :-) I trust that Der, and others, will participate there.
do you mean its all HOT AIR!!

latej
09-27-2022, 08:49 AM
do you mean its all HOT AIR!!

:-) It's a little bit of everything. But mostly, it is an invitation.

fzambetta
09-27-2022, 10:30 AM
Sure thing, I will get a thread started soon on L4 and its relationship to L1-L3 and hopefully a few people can contribute links to existing sources and/or their experiences.

I was planning to do so earlier, but I have been on holiday these last few days in a regional area with an iffy Internet connection 😅
​​​​​​
EDIT: It is done (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?28051-Relaxing-when-playing-TT-amp-breathing) 😁