High throw vs low throw rubber (high / low arc) thoughts

[Liten]

Maybe he's just like me.. A bassplayer?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

....you are not doing what you think you are doing.

It is kind of like the analogy in Plato's Republic of the guy in the cave thinking he knows what the world outside looks like when he has never actually seen it.

Or, yes, the comedy of an air bass player thinking he is really playing the base.

See that is the trouble. He knows enough to understand how a lot of things work, at least in theory. But then he thinks he is doing that but he isn't.

And he is so used to having people just yes him, since, in his field he is surrounded by people who consider him an expert. That it seems he is having trouble understanding that he isn't doing what he thinks he's doing.


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[NextLevel]

It is kind of like the analogy in Plato's Republic of the guy in the cave thinking he knows what the world outside looks like when he has never actually seen it.

Or, yes, the comedy of an air bass player thinking he is really playing the base.

See that is the trouble. He knows enough to understand how a lot of things work, at least in theory. But then he thinks he is doing that but he isn't.

And he is so used to having people just yes him, since, in his field he is surrounded by people who consider him an expert. That it seems he is having trouble understanding that he isn't doing what he thinks he's doing.


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He also pays many of them too, including the coaches who he says tell him he has good serves.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One thing about rubbers (moving the thread away from world-infamous TT posters): if you use a high-throw rubber you get pretty used to it after awhile and tend to instinctively use a more closed racket angle. At that point low-throw rubbers feel really strange. But switch to a low throws and in the fullness of time you will instinctively open up your racket angle. So my sense is that it almost doesn't matter as long as you stick with something and don't constantly switch between rubbers. If you switch all the time, it is hard to get real comfortable with anything. That said, my favorite rubber ever is Tenergy 05, which clearly is on the extreme end of throw. But I remember the first time I ever used it, about a month after you could buy it in the US in 2008. I hated it. I had been using stuff like F1 Desto and JO Platinum, early generation ESN Tensors which are really low-throw rubbers with a "plastic" feel. It seemed like Tenergy 05 just hit moonballs coming from those early generation ESN rubbers. I didn't stick with it. Then I tried T64 which was much more easy to get used to. I used that for probably three months. Then the next time I tried T05 it felt incredibly good. It was like I sort of had to transition into it, through an intermediate step. Since then I have used T05 except at a point when it went beyond $80. Then I used MX-P for about a month. It was and is ok. But now that Tenergy is $67, I will use it. Actually, I probably won't care about the cost.

I think it is good to find something that is more or less what you like and just stick with it for quite a long time. Then you instinctively know how to play with it. (And Zen says you have to play instinctively, if you are having to put your mind in one particular place you will not play well). Maybe even if it isn't exactly what you like at the beginning, if you stick with it, it will become what you like. If I had stayed with MX-P it would have become my favorite, eventually. (OK, so why did I switch back to Tenergy? Because it really is amazing rubber, I suppose).

I had the same experience with Viscaria handles. I used to think they were too small, but I liked everything else about the blade. Now, after close to 10 years with that blade, it feels perfect.

I do think this is a good assessment of things. When you play with something long enough you get really used to it and your strokes and your game adapt to it. So if you were playing with an Off+ blade and switched to an Off- blade, at first it would feel slow like a turtle. After a while, like, say, a month, it would start feeling more normal. Then after another month it would start feeling like the "right" speed and you would really start developing the things you can do with that particular blade. The way the head size, the handle, the weight etc can help your game. If you play with it for another 2 years and then try that old Off+ blade, you may think: "woe, what the heck was I thinking playing with this thing! It is soooo fast and has not dwell time or control!" But, then, if you switched back to that, over time, that blade would be the one that felt like the right speed again and your game would end up changing because the stuff you can do with the slower blade, you would not be able to do with the faster blade. But there would be other stuff you would be able to do with the faster blade that didn't work with the slower blade.

Same thing with the throw angle of the rubber you use. So, in the end, it really is a personal choice and whatever rubber you use, you will get used to.

But here is how I would break this down:

Since high throw rubbers seem to have more spin in relation to speed, your loops will have more of an arc and the arc will happen sooner in the flight of the ball. This creates loops that are more about the arc of the ball and the kick after the bounce. It means that the other player has to be good at handling that extra spin. Whether they block, chop, or counter loop, they have to handle the speed to spin ratio. I personally like the high, ultra spinny loops that cause the other player to mishit and have to be more precise with their returns.

Since low throw rubbers seem to have a higher ration of speed to spin so the ball arcs less and arcs later in the flight of the ball, these rubbers are great for the kind of fast, low, lethal loops that someone like Wang Liqin was known for. Those loops are hard to handle because of the speed and how they stay low.

A rubber that is in between these two extremes, a medium throw might be easier to use for a lot of people than the ultra high throw or an ultra low throw rubber.

But, for me, I like the high throw rubbers for the most part.

For a similar reason, I like blades with a Limba top ply because of the soft touch, dwell, spin and feel that that wood gives which enhances the high throw rubbers and helps you get more spin while digging into the ball.

I have used a few blades with a Koto top ply. After a while I get used to them and I feel like you need a more refined more subtle contact to get that spin. But there are advantages to the Koto top ply as well. It definitely helps you get that pace with lethal spin if your contact is precise.

So, ultimately all this is a matter of preference. However, I think, for players who are under 2200, more often than not, a blade that is all wood, in the All+, Off- or low Off speed range with a soft outer ply like Limba or Hinoki with a high throw rubber would be a more useful setup for developing a looping topspin game, than what most people tend to go for at that level.

High throw rubbers match well with those all wood blades I am talking about and will help you develop a loop that has more spin.

 

[Baal]

As to slapping things, references to Plato are of course apt in this case, and capture the situation. For some reason, though, I am reminded of the great Zen koan. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

I think in addition to slapping very high shots, our compulsive poster is slapping something none of us would want to touch.

 

[Der_Echte]

He also pays many of them too, including the coaches who he says tell him he has good serves.

That is EXACTLY a snapshot of TOO MANY coaching situations in US involving rich (or least poor people ready to toss around money) players who want to learn some, but do NOT do what it takes to really improve (like a lot of work).

The end result is still a win-win for everyone. Club who player gets lessons in gets a hansom cut and the club stays alive to give a chance for moar TT in the community. The coach gets a huge chunk and can afford to pay his used car payment. The player learns how to make an occasional flashy shot or just enough to keep it on the table vs the 1000-1200 USATT level to get an error and win points, thereby keeping the bragging rights and office king of the hill respect status.

Next Level really summed it up and as much as we dislike and bash that situation, it is what is supporting the small infrastructure we have in USA for TT at the moment.

I could take a gent similar in condition and level as Pnchy and in two years, would be winning vs or at least contending vs 1700-1800 crowd within two years. (assuming the player listens and puts in the work) The worth you have as a coach is easily measured by how little or much his/her players develop in certain time frames. A player similar to Pnchy should be able to grow from 1300-1500 level and be winning/contending vs the 1700-1800 crowd within a few years. At the minimum should be whuppin' up a fearsome smackdown vs the 1600 level crowd at bare minimum at the 2 year mark.

 

[Pnachtwey]

The answer has already been given to you : because the incomming ball is ultra high, far far over the net.

except for the first ball or two my returned balls are going horizontal. Some slightly up and some slightly down from horizontal.
It is easy to see. It is no ( stupid carl ) delusion. So where does the spin go if I am roughly matching the spin on the ball, sometimes a little more and sometime a little less. It takes force to change the spin on the ball and NONE of you idiots have shown how it is done when I am making an upwards stroke.

I am surprised that all of you are so blind you can't see my paddle go from low to high in an effort to match the spin on the ball. You guys see only what you want to see or I bet many have not seen the video at all. I don't see how I could be stopping the spin of the ball with an upstroke like that as stupid carl claims.

The whole point of the video was to embarrass Nextlevel, and others, by showing it is easy to loop or hit back chopped balls with T25, even if they have extra spin by matching the speed of the spin. You can return chopped balls with any "throw" rubber by matching the speed of the spin.

Isn't there anybody that can see my paddle is swinging up? Are you all blind?
If my paddle is swinging up then how do I stop the spin on the ball?
ATFQ!!
Yes, Plato allegory of the cave applies here but I am not the one in the cave. Since all of you are seemingly blind I don't think it would make any difference if you got outside the cave to see the real world.

Same spin from the robot and a contact point under the net : here is the real test for your FH "topspin" (I shouldn't call it topspin). And you will figure it out : you are not doing what you think you are doing.

now what part of very high back spin don't you understand? The back spin generated by the Newgy is about 50% greater than what a human can generate. It would take a very fast paddle speed to get those balls over the net without opening paddle.

I can reduce the back spin and wait for the ball to drop to table level. That it easy.

Mean while, why hasn't anybody but me challenged stupid carl on his statement that the spin of the ball stops when looping backspin.
Why, are you all stupid like carl and believe what stupid carl says?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

( stupid carl )

The whole point of the video was to embarrass Nextlevel, and others.....

Why, are you all stupid like carl and believe what stupid carl says?

Wow, as big, fat, clumsy, out of shape and foolish as you are, you have outdone yourself here.

"The whole point of the video was to embarrass Nextlevel, and others...."

That is worth repeating again:

"The whole point of the video was to embarrass Nextlevel, and others...."

All you are trying to do is insult others. Well, the truth is you are a pathetic waste of time and the only person who should actually be embarrassed is the PNut man himself.

Somehow, everyone who can loop is able to see what you are and aren't doing in spite of the fact that you have hidden yourself from site in the video with the machine.

And in the video with your friend pushing dead balls at you, your success rate is pretty abysmal. And the reason your success rate is so bad is because you are slapping those high dead balls. It is easy to see in either video.

Nobody is fooled by your overinflated ego because it is pretty plain to see how inept you are as a player.

And you made that video trying to EMBARRASS, hahaha, that is too funny, you were trying to embarrass someone other than yourself.

LOL. This is waaaaaaaay too funny to pass up laughing at.

Too bad you didn't listen to Killerspintt in the last thread. He was pretty darn nice to you. And my memory is that he is an engineer as well. So, are you calling him stupid and saying he didn't watch the videos?


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Oh no! I can already hear PNut's response to this thread!

Run Away!

Now you guys know why this was my first response in this thread as shortly after the previous thread of the same subject matter and same basic title as this one was.

Oh. By the way: "How does a rubber know if it is close to the table or away?" Okay, I couldn't resist. That one was entirely too witty for me to leave out.

And anyone who can ask that question:

"How does a rubber know if it is close to the table or away?"

Must be a bit loopy. The guy seems to be indicating that all rubbers play equally well from all distances.

And in that quote as well, he was actually trying to embarrass (was that the word he used?) NextLevel for saying Tenergy 25 is harder to use when you are further back.

Well the big question is, if the guy gets out of breath from what he is doing in the serve and receive video where he doesn't even have to move for the ball, what would happen if PNut actually backed up far enough to test out how different rubbers or blades play from mid-distance or farther?

Oh, that's right! The guy needs to be close to the table in case he is about to fall down.....or was it, to put his hands on the table and support his girth while he gasps for air.


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[Der_Echte]

I waz gasping for air in Korea in my lessons with coach beginning around the ten minute mark... but then again, coach waz on a mission to wear me and every player smooth out using combo sequences involving power hitting, explosive movement and strong footwork over and over without a rest. Think BH loop at BH corner, step around FH powerloop, then race towards FH corner with a fast crossover to FH loop to coach's BH corner, then crossover step again to get to the block at the wide BH corner... makes me tired just to think about it.

I wouldn't beat down a guy's lack of fitness as a disqualification to play TT at a decent high level, heck, Coach McAfee plays 2000 close to the table with zero knees and zero footwork except a one step.

Personally, I also believe Pnchy isn't looping the ball with heavy topspin slow, he is driving it and borrowing some of the backspin to land it with a little reduced pace. But what the heck, if that FH drive is placed right, it is one heck of an effective shot that often wins points or leads to it... a decent variation... but still not really a loop overcoming the spin with bat speed and catching the ball and accelerating it.

I'd be willing to have Pnchy around if he quit insisting on telling the forum how to loop underspin, I like it when authority and set concepts are put to question and we examine what & why we believe.

Yeah, it looks like Pnchy is accustomed to being the subject matter expert (and he prolly is in his field, or he wouldn't have the career he had) but Pnchy got something to learn when he tries to push Next Level or Carl calling names with the backup of flawed technique explaination. Not a good idea to mess with Carl or Next Level, both of wthem are at an entirely different level of trouble making than I am willing or capable of. None of those two take much crap from anyone.

 

[Der_Echte]

To the occasional lurker in the forum or someone watching this play out for the first time, one might think Carl and Next level are getting a bit harsh, but really, they are purposely restricting themselves to playing at elementary school level and haven't even started getting grumpy yet.

 

[Liten]

Seriously.. This is all a big joke right? This has troll written all over it?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep, doing those drills you would get most people out of breath. And there is nothing wrong with someone not being in good shape or not having a high level of fitness.

But you have this obnoxious so-and-so calling everyone stupid, insisting he is looping when he is not, and by his own admission trying to embarrass other people who are way better than he is: so I say the guy is missing something upstairs. And the stuff that is glaring actually becomes an issue because he is saying other people are idiots.

@ Der_Echte: You are a good guy. And you can play. Your not trying to call anyone else an idiot. I know you are being nice and I think there is a value to that.

But all this guy does is try and find people to call idiots. That is all he is on here for. He is looking for people to insult.

If he was asking for help so he could get better, or giving help so that he was helping other people get better, it would be a different story. But all he wants to do is try and make other people look bad.

And boy he really looks bad to start. So I say people in glass houses, etc.

If someone is that bad and looks that bad as a player is going around trying to insult other people, then I have no problem making fun of the fact that his stomach can move in 10 directions at once because there is nothing but hot air and jelly in that old wind bag.

And anyone who is in such bad shape would only be helped by doing something to try and get in better shape in any way possible.


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[ttmonster]

@UpSideDownCarl : I have known you as a member of this forum for quite sometime and have liked / respected your insight into all matters table tennis and the fact that you are never unwilling to help out a fellow forum member when the have asked for help. I would just request you to stop trying to answer this guy , who ever he is, the behavior and ego he is exhibiting here is not worth even a single second of any our time. Let him live in his ivory tower , I guess he has enough money to keep himself engaged.
This forum has always been a nice place to hangout and discuss different aspects of table tennis , lets just keep it that way and not entertain people with negative attitudes and behavior here.

There are ego maniacs and know it alls every where , but when somebody is so far gone , I don't think anybody can help them.

As they say , "Don't argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. "

 

[Der_Echte]

Monster iz a voice of reason POUND da LIKE button.

 

[Baal]

You can bet on almost anything in Las Vegas. I am waiting to see the Las Vegas betting line on whether PNacthway will find a way to get banned from a third table tennis forum since exactly the same tendencies eventually made him persona non grata at MyTT and OOAK forums. Any compulsive gamblers want to guess the odds?

 

[Der_Echte]

None of those two (EDIT: Carl and Next Level) take much crap from anyone.

Those two Hellions are from NYC and Phily, prolly two of the most no-nonsense keep it real cities in our huge wide nation. Anyone wanting to mix it up (when they are right) when they are in the wrong is senseless.

It would be much better for Pnchy to keep his dignity and respect, pul his horns in and just post meaningful stuff (like he has contributed in other posts) and write it all off. If Carl and NL pursue it (which they WONT) the forum would correct them collectively. Pnchy could simply continue to post and contribute in other areas and all would be eventually forgotten, maybe if he visited NYC and had a visit or two with Carl and NL (with special invite) and bet (and lost) a doubles match for food and several 3000 cl of beerz after the match, it would be an EPIC event in the history of TT forums.

 

[Der_Echte]

You can bet on almost anything in Las Vegas. I am waiting to see the Las Vegas betting line on whether PNacthway will find a way to get banned from a third table tennis forum since exactly the same tendencies eventually made him persona non grata at MyTT and OOAK forums. Any compulsive gamblers want to guess the odds?

F***%^$##@!!! NO !!!!

Wouldn't take those odds if you paid me.

Still, I think he could simply stop teh nonsense and post rationally (like he has in other threads) and he would be well accepted here.

You are betting on hiz tendencies to buck that and YOU have inside information I do NOT have and HECK NO I will not bet against you in those circumstances damn Ur pants heck no you know better than me and that is in the light that this forum is much like MyTT in the 2006-2000 era (before you, FATT, HaggisV and others stepped in to stabilize that forum.

Heck no you aint gunna see me bet against you in this matter.

Say... Is that Ryu Seung Min over there??? GOTTA GO...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

.Say... Is that Ryu Seung Min over there??? GOTTA GO...

Okay. That is pretty darn funny.


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[Baal]

Ryu Seung Min? No, I think that was Ruta Paskauskiene . Gotta go.