Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Der_Echte]

I had an epiphany today. I have been trying to figure out how to play close to the table topspins for a while especially countertopspins. It has been a struggle as no coach or video has been able to give me good insight into how to think about it. I have tried a lot of stuff but none of it has ever felt right. Remember I don't bend my knees and I play really close to the table.

On mytt, a player was discussing backhand topspin technique and I chimed in. And then zeio chimed in and posted a video of how Wang Hao approached countertopspin on his backhand. And as someone who likes to reverse engineer his backhand technique to my forehand, it hit me. You can't spin upwards close to the table. You have to spin over to come down to bring the ball down. Someone was arguing that the follow through doesn't matter and that all that matters is how your stroke hits the ball. But I find that if I swing with the intent to come down after the stroke or in a circle not to lift but almost to make the ball curve onto the table, I can be more consistent and loop topspin close to the table better. I will experiment with this technique for a while and see how well I can master it. It has helped me see that I didnt fully grasp what I was doing on my backhand when I tried to countertopspin on my forehand but now I get it better.

I find it way easier to take the ball off the bounce with loose wrist and short forward stroke to make a medium paced ball with heavier spin.

I let the ball come up a little more (like to maybe at or just below net level) and firm up wrist at impact to give back a fast loop using a short forward stroke.

Off the bounce, a big key is a loose wrist for me.

 

[NextLevel]

My 2 cents......

If you imagine the stroke to be like a clock face. Your typical bog standard forehand stroke would start at 4 o clock (with your backswing), and go through to between 9 and 10 o clock (a soft upwards motion, but predominantly forwards).

A forehand loop against backspin would start around 5 o clock and accelerate through to between 10 and 11 o clock.

A forehand counter topspin, whether a big backswing or a small one would start at 3 o clock (maybe even between 3 and 2 o clock) on the backswing and follow through to 9 o clock (or if it's loaded with top spin, between 9 and 8 o clock - i.e. You are hitting over the ball to force it down).

Generally, I'd find in a typical top spin looping rally, you probably wouldn't need to hit down too much - It's almost a "3 o clock to 9 o clock" type shot.

The chap I'm playing is using Hurricane on the forehand, so the style would need to be adapted a little bit depending on the spin sensitivity of the rubber.

But if you look at his counter at 2:13 (also in slow motion afterwards so you can see better), it shows the "3 o clock to 9 o clock" type action I was talking about.

He's a little back from the table, so you'd have less time if you were close to the table - But the principal still applies.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/m0q5lO9DaXg?start=133" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

I 100% agree with this. At least, for my preferred playing distance, the 2 to 8 o clock paradigm to put it extremely is what is working for me. That is what I am trying to say.

 

[NDH]

I knew my overuse of the slow mo would come in handy

 

[Lula]

I knew my overuse of the slow mo would come in handy

Haha you like them! Maybe you can have a video without slowmo also next time! the rhytme of the play feels so off with all the slowmo and takes like forever to watch the game but sure, it looks kinda cool

 

[NDH]

Haha you like them! Maybe you can have a video without slowmo also next time! the rhytme of the play feels so off with all the slowmo and takes like forever to watch the game but sure, it looks kinda cool

Yeah, I did it because I like to see the technique, and thought others would enjoy it as well.

TT shots are so fast, that an epic point can be over before you've even had a chance to see what happens.

On reflection, I did it a bit too much at the start (from about 2 minutes, it all runs smoothly with no more instant replays).

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

its possible to do slowmo on Youtube

 

[ttmonster]

I don't know if you noticed , he is really actually going forward with the stroke ... the pushing down part of it really only in the follow through.... just watch the following replay at half speed .... I am guessing the starting point of his backhand stroke is higher than his forehand stroke so may be he has incorporated that arc in the follow through of BH as a safety measure ... a lot of conjecture but thats what I could see happening there ...

Lula,

How would you replicate this stroke on the forehand side?

https://youtu.be/JilVcyc0k_E?t=2100

 

[NextLevel]

I don't know if you noticed , he is really actually going forward with the stroke ... the pushing down part of it really only in the follow through.... just watch the following replay at half speed .... I am guessing the starting point of his backhand stroke is higher than his forehand stroke so may be he has incorporated that arc in the follow through of BH as a safety measure ... a lot of conjecture but thats what I could see happening there ...

Watching a stroke at half speed sometimes gives a deceptive idea of what the player is trying to do because you think what happens at half speed is what determined the full path and trajectory of the ball and forget that strokes need to be played in a large path with no pausing so you have to look at the full swing. Of course the stroke is going to come forward in the initial phase but the intent of how to finish the stroke has a huge impact on the ball quality.

In fact this was the whole debate at mytt. I strongly believe that you cannot focus on just what happens ar contact, you need to look at the full path of the acceleration to know what a stroke did. I concluded this from lots of experimentation with my technique. It is why I hate the TT physicists or engineers who like to focus on contact as if it is all that matters.

 

[ttmonster]

NextLevel .. I think what you are alluding to is more about how your feeling of the stroke is attuned to the contact .... I am sure you have figured out what works for you .. I was just saying what I saw

Watching a stroke at half speed sometimes gives a deceptive idea of what the player is trying to do because you think what happens at half speed is what determined the full path and trajectory of the ball and forget that strokes need to be played in a large path with no pausing so you have to look at the full swing. Of course the stroke is going to come forward in the initial phase but the intent of how to finish the stroke has a huge impact on the ball quality.

In fact this was the whole debate at mytt. I strongly believe that you cannot focus on just what happens ar contact, you need to look at the full path of the acceleration to know what a stroke did. I concluded this from lots of experimentation with my technique. It is why I hate the TT physicists or engineers who like to focus on contact as if it is all that matters.

 

[NextLevel]

NextLevel .. I think what you are alluding to is more about how your feeling of the stroke is attuned to the contact .... I am sure you have figured out what works for you .. I was just saying what I saw

Okay. I think it is more important than that but your view is fine as well. I think a stroke is a vector as is spin. The turning effect of the whole stroke is what influences the contact. If I say start st 9 and finish at 3, the turning effect is very different from if I say start at 9 and finish at 2, even though both are clearly topspin strokes.

 

[ttmonster]

Well .. you certainly got me thinking ... you might be right .. most of high school physics is rigid body dynamics ... when its elastic the game changes quite a bit .. but hey I am not a Masters in Physics ... Statistics was my major and then after 15 years in IT .. I am just a pretentious know it all pseudo intellectual ... ROFLAO ...

Okay. I think it is more important than that but your view is fine as well. I think a stroke is a vector as is spin. The turning effect of the whole stroke is what influences the contact. If I say start st 9 and finish at 3, the turning effect is very different from if I say start at 9 and finish at 2, even though both are clearly topspin strokes.

 

[Der_Echte]

Dont believe it folks...ttMonster is deep cover Goon Squad...beep beep...fashion...beep beep.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[NextLevel]

Dont believe it folks...ttMonster is deep cover Goon Squad...beep beep...fashion...beep beep.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yeah. We disagree and we are both obviously trying to be civil despite intense disagreement. But I remember what the follow through doesn't matter theory did to my game. So I don't want someone who is trying to figure TT out to make the same mistake I did.

 

[ttmonster]

Our intentions are honest ...and thats all that matters ... I did think through this a little bit more .. I would still argue that the arc from the beginning of the stroke to the point where the ball leaves the rubbers is what mattters ... but I have to take into consideration the fact that there is a lot going on in any table tennis stroke plus you have the advantage of experimentation and how it works by breaking it down , I do it mostly by instinct , so I respect your viewpoint ... I always feel it helps to keep any argument civil when we keep in mind that we are after all kids gathering sea shells and how do I know you haven't found the right one or may be there is no
right one or may there are more than one ..

Yeah. We disagree and we are both obviously trying to be civil despite intense disagreement. But I remember what the follow through doesn't matter theory did to my game. So I don't want someone who is trying to figure TT out to make the same mistake I did.

 

[Der_Echte]

I may create enemies of the state by stating this... but it helps spin to follow the shape of the ball a bit... to catch and throw the ball for spin... which helps the concept of NL's approach to strokes.

 

[ttmonster]

which state ... the Democratic Peoples Republic of Gooniesia ?

I may create enemies of the state by stating this... but it helps spin to follow the shape of the ball a bit... to catch and throw the ball for spin... which helps the concept of NL's approach to strokes.

 

[ttmonster]

On a more serious note .. following the shape of the ball increases control but decreases the spin on the forehand side unless you are hitting around the ball which again increases the corkscrew but we are not talking about that shot here, on the backhand side it will be okay because the natural follow through following the arc would not decrease the whip , but on the forehand side its not a natural follow through of the whip and it is bound to decelerate ...

which state ... the Democratic Peoples Republic of Gooniesia ?

 

[yoass]

Yeah. We disagree and we are both obviously trying to be civil despite intense disagreement. But I remember what the follow through doesn't matter theory did to my game. So I don't want someone who is trying to figure TT out to make the same mistake I did.

I won't state anything about elastic body dynamics, but for whatever it's worth I felt it was tremendously important to mentally visualize start and end positions to get my loop technique going. Not the only thing, mind, but very important and a great help nonetheless. Trajectory, contact point and followthrough are part of that visualization.

 

[FruitLoop]

It helped me to imagine start and end with almost no conscious control in between. Like I snapped between the positions which forces me to use body etc more correctly.

 

[whocarez]

On a more serious note .. following the shape of the ball increases control but decreases the spin on the forehand side unless you are hitting around the ball which again increases the corkscrew but we are not talking about that shot here, on the backhand side it will be okay because the natural follow through following the arc would not decrease the whip , but on the forehand side its not a natural follow through of the whip and it is bound to decelerate ...

Hmm, maybe this is what happens when topspins get a bit too much of corkscrew, the path is more around the ball. I have more corkscrew on diagonal topspins. I guess a straighter diagonal path from start to finish position gives a cleaner topspin.