Life, Existence, and the Meaning of Long Pips - The Opus Maximus of James Z

[NextLevel]

Ok let use go in circles again
I never remotely suggested that symmetric blades are the ONLY solution to all the problems in the world like world hunger. All I meant to imply was that it was one of the possible good methods that is not currently available.
If you want to keep trolling demanding nonsensical emprical evidence , keep going.

It is still not clear to me what exactly you are demanding. Asking for exact emprical evidence in this situation is monumental stupidity because as I explained five posts ago that a small sample size is not the valid answer when you are looking at teh entire player population. If you keep demanding that again & again that is sheer absurdity. But go ahead and keep doing it for fun anyway. Enjoy

1) I assume you meant asymmetric.
2) You claim it is not available only because major manufacturers do not typically make asymmetric blades while acknowledging that custom manufacturers exist, contradicting yourself?
3) Just because something is possible doesn't mean it has to be available. That's why we have to be empirical. You do agree that it is possible for pairs of shoes to be made with a bigger left shoe than right shoe.

What I am asking for is some assessment of the number of players that would benefit from asymmetric blades and how the current market is substantially falling short in meeting their demands. What percentage of the market do you think would benefit from asymmetric blades? How did you arrive at this number? My original point is that just having a stronger backhand than forehand or vice versa doesn't imply that one would benefit from asymmetry in blade design. It is just as compatible with using symmetry to calibrate intuition, or using practice to reduce the desired imperfections.

 

[turbozed]

I know nothing about pips but I do know about proper forum etiquette.

You're starting all these threads about a "new topic" when you're really just making a point regarding the discussion currently in the "fun playing aganist pips thread" Just ask the question in that thread. Your target audience is already reachable and engaged in the topic there.

The mod is doing a great job making sure the front page is not cluttered, and I personally appreciate it.

 

[James Z]

I am just curious, what makes you think you are a troll?

I never considered myself to be a troll but you say I am when you say so.
How many other posters use big red letters to hilight ?

 

[James Z]

The above is a famous life lesson that is applicable on how to response to trolls. Learn it well, Padawans.

Yes , whenever you cannot provide a valid answer to very simple questions , such as "Are these two players pro players playing to entertain you" , you can simply dismiss the person asking the question as a troll . That make syou feel powerful & superior.
I forgot to ask you another rquestion.
So these two players you umpired could not keep the ball on the table to entertain you. How different is it from the third ball attacks from two illegally spoosted up looper & quick ending of points at the pro level ? How does that entertain the spectators compared to a match between a high level male looper & a high level male chopper. Oh I am sorry, I forgot, you cannot answer this question, because male choppers are all but extinct

 

[James Z]

Lot of progress has been made with high aspect ratio super long pips but mostly in the blocking long pips area but there still exists no rubbers for away from the table choppers, like Feint Long Classic reigned supreme in the 38 mm ball era until ITTF quickly jumped in & put an end to it.
Most of these Indonesian rubbers are also blocking type but there are two rubbers that may be chopping type (Sabotese & Rawontexx) but they are not available outside Indonesia.
ITTF and its forums have made incredible attempts to prevent these rubbers from getting into the hands of pros (especially choppers) in almost all countries except maybe China but China regulates them at higher levels very strictly. In forums like here, even providing a specification request for a chopper rubber can get banned when I posted a request under the thread title " Magic 77 on steroids". When I made a perfectly legitimate (in person) offer for $15,000 for high level choppers to challenge the ban on them at US Nationals 2023, my post was quicly deleted.
It is also very ineresting that all the posts I made exposing the hypocrisy about this issue has been deleted. Many posters such as Tony'sTableTennis, StuartMarquis, jslick89 etc made posts screaming how useless these high aspect ratio super long pips are because Adam Bobrow can beat them but are supposedly fun to play against. But when I simply asked why the ITTF cannot approve them if they are so much fun but harmless , my posts were deleted but leaving all other posts intact. Of course we all know the REAL reaon why ITTF cannot allow them, because ITTF put so much effort defending the rights of booster supremacists with 9 rule & regulation changes to limit the choppers since 1983 & now they cannot let all that work go to waste just because just one person on the entire planet is screaming for justice & fairplay.
The only solution I can see is some German player sees this golden opportunity to make tons of money & works with Indonesian & Chinese (now obviouly Korean) manufacturers & starts distributing both blocking & chopping type high aspect ratio long pips in Germany & rest of Europe. And if somone in India can have someone like Manika Batra sponsor them ecven as fun rubbers that is a 500 million women market in India (of course Inidan men are not allowed to touch any (long) pips by law in India LOL) If you really think about it, this is probably how even Dr.Neubauer got started (& infuriated Scholer) & now we have few more like Sauer & Troeger, DMS & SpinLord etc

 

[James Z]

However, you do also insist on your perspective being the only perspective and insult people who don’t agree with you.

Give me some examples & I will apologize even if it was the other (clueless) poster who insulted me first

Or you could join burndtmann and take up hardbat….

But I am very much against hardbat & sandpaper continuing on (especially for younger people)
I have explained my reasons (100% technical & 10% political) in detail several times unless you have deleted them
Running junior events in hardbat & sandpaper at US Nationals & US Open is really sick & borders on child abuse

 

[James Z]

It the LP is being used for push blocking, then putting the LP under a UV lamp will help "cure" the pips. That is make them harder and less grippy

I am not players chating with treated pips just nbecause loopers ar eviolating Rule 2.4.7
This only gives the spooster cheaters to overblow pips cheating totally out of proportion (becaue there exists probably 500 booster cheats for each pips treat cheat........mostly & only becaue ther just are lot more inverted players in table tennis & not because all pips players are holy or something)

But i am all for players using non-treated high aspect ratio super long pips & challenging the ITTF at sanctioned tournaments. If ITTF wants torefuse to allow them to play then it is on ITTF. And if a player refuses to play against your high aspect ratio super long pips in practice or league or non-ITTF-affiliated tournament then you know who your real friends are in table tennis.

That is make them harder and less grippy The grip or spin of LPs changes depending on if the pips are bent.

That is one of the many 19 or so paramters & their combinations & variations together in pip design that determines spin (& speed , control, deception etc) & whether a rubber is a blocking type or chopping type or all round type.
I made a post about these 19 pip design parameters but that somehow offended the moderators & that post had been deleted twice

 

[James Z]

If you played only hardbat for a while, you might change your mind. Plus, I didn’t recommend hardbat for anyone else. I recommended that if you tried it, you might like it. I bet you could beat a lot of the active members on here using hardbat. I have that feeling.

Thanks for saying that and is mostly true but LOL (i may be able to evn get a fake high hardbat rating like 2300 or 2400)

I started playing tabletennis only graduate school seriously because I only played hockey & basketball for both college & high school though I was heavily recruited for football (soccer) as the local coach who was actually my uncle's teammate in hockey wanted me real bad. But the local coach for hockey was my uncle's teammate & he prevailed LOL) I would have been a semi-pro hockey player if I had not gotten into graduate school. (n fact I did play one semi-pro hockey match LOL) Before that I played very litle tabletennis & was forced to play intramural because someone thought I may have talent just because i was hitting around a few tennis balls. So I played intramrals using hardbat. Everybody played hardbat because sponge rackets were not available then as freely as now. . My project mate received a Buttetfly racket from his aunt in USA & there used to be a line of 20 students to just use it. (he could have made lot of money if he rented it LOL).
So I discovered tabletennis (hardbat first) in the basement of international center. My professor was an amazing two winged chopper with hardbat & I bought a Butterfly sponge racket & he usually killed me because I had no clue of looping & tried to chop with a 2.5 mm Marr V because everyone kept telling me I should only use sponge both sides. Long pips just arrived on the scene. This went on in my second grad school & another 10 years. Just after that a 75 year old long pips woman player beat me . I went to tennis in frustration for 9 years & in my playing peak in both sport I would say I was better in tennis like close to 5.5 or 7 in USTA rating (like maybe 2300 equivalent).

Yes I may do well if I went full time hardbat but I am not talented enough to switch back & forth between hardbat & sponge like Jim Butler or Yodd Sweeris or Danny Seemiller. I enjooy the so many different things I can do with my sponge racket which also enhances my chopping & lobbing both sides now & looping & counterlooping mostlly forehand. I would be limited to mostly flat-hitting both sides in hardbat other than chopping & that is my weakness And my serves are far more lethal using a combination racket yhough I do not really enjoy winning points off serves

This is exactly also my point sponge domain TT allows most players to design their rackets to matach their specific playing styles & skills (or even lack of skills LOL). It is not possible anywhere to sponge to be able t do this using hardbat or sandpapaer.
It was mostly the cost of rackets that limited to the access of most players to spong tabletennis . But things have changed. Players even poor countries get their own rubbers & even make their own dangerous concoctions of
spin glues & spoosters violating Rule 2.4.7 LOL

Hardbat was great when it lasted. My favoorite players of all time are Richard Bergmann & Angelica Rozeanu . But the time for hardbat has come and gone & that is nothing to say bad about hardbat . But it had been 70 years & time to move on.

I completely understand some old farts still want to stick to hardbat & they should continue hardnat onlly event for older players ove 60 for anothe r10 or 20 years.
But is disgusting to try have children play hardbat or sandpaper. The strokes are very different in sponge & hardbat & of course talented athletes like Jim Butler or Danny Seemiller can switwch bak and forth easily but most players just cannot. This only confuses children.

What is also not clear to is why these hardbat freaks want their own seperate event. I have no issue with hardbat continuing as approved in ITTF & I have no problem even if they made sandpapar approved.

But why ? There were good reasons why hardbat & sandpapare existed even 30 years ago but defintely not now.

So it is as ridiculous as all Rule 2.4.7. violators wanting to have their own separate evnt
Or like all short pips with spong hitters wanting their own events
Or kike all social rubber users wanting a separate event

The hardbat nonsense started wth Marty Reisman brainwashing the clueless. But that is an entirely different story I do not want to get into now. In fact I even love watching videos of Reisman & Miles & Sido & Pagliaro etc & Reisman's crazy antics.
I have 2 copies of the Money Player which I gave to my brother & sister as a collector's item as the price is bound to increase.

 

[James Z]

Examples: many times you have insisted that SP on BH was what you call a social rubber without ever considering why different people choose different equipment and that your assumption for why is the only answer to why they do it. I have a friend named Kunal Shah. Last time I saw him was years ago. But at the time he was 2350++ and he used SP on BH and he used them in a very antisocial way that punished his opponents. I have another friend named Rocky who, last I saw him was 2500+ and he used SP on BH. I assure you this was quite antisocial for his opponents to handle how hard he smacked the ball with his BH and how easily he set his opponents up.

But you even insist that players in the top 100 women’s division are using their equipment because of social pressure not to use what you would use.

Over and over you have posted about SP being social rubbers.

But Anti, weakside SP and LARC long pips are indeed social rubbers because most players (especially amateurs) who use them competitively do not fully understand why they use them & how dysfunctional & useless they are in the 40+ plastic ball era. These players are also afraid of social rejection & castigation. That is why they are called social rubbers.
If you are just playing for fun it really does not matter. Use what you enjoy.
But if you want to play competitively choose rubbers based on your own needs , style & limitations etc & not simply because a pro uses them.
As far as pros goes it is a little different. I do not agree with Hou Yingchao using weakside short pips. The only reason I can see why he uses them is because he can beat players below top 20. But with high aspect ratio super long pips he would beat Ma Long on a fair & level playing field
As far as Mima Ito I only have 3 words Deng Ya Ping. Enough said.
The issue is that these pros are playing at a very high level not because they use social rubbers like short pips or LARC listed long pips but they win despite those rubbers. That does not mean they are playing at their maximum potential. But clueless amateurs & even some top low level players just blindly try to imitatate their favorite pros & this is how manufacturers market their overpriced rubber nased on pure vanity & I do not balme them.

This is not limited to short pips. Joanna Drinkall is another example. She can beat players below maybe top 20 but I have never seen her beat players over top 20. But I think she would with proper racket using that matches her stule which is a combination racket . Irene Ivancan is another example.
These are all bad role models IMO.

Also if you compare why Japanese use of social rubbers compared to say India or Vietnam or France or Sweden or France or all of Africa it is a bit different. In India or Vietnam or France or all of Africa it is considered shameful to even use social rubbers. Japan is a fine country & great people & culture but the hatred towards social rubbers is not as overt as in other pips hating countries I mentioned above. In the 80;'s & early 90's it was not like this Japan as they prodcued the top choppers incuding Victas president Koji Matsushita himself but hings seem to have changed. But compare this to China & how they are more open minded about long pips.

 

[James Z]

Yes, it is now available from Shopee lndonesian branch. Ask for help from locals.
Be happy.

The Indonesian rubbers themselves are quite inexpensive but shipping to other countries is very expensive.

This is why this is a gret business opportunity for an existing dealership like Tony'sTableTennis, but he won't do it just and only because I am asking. Punishing me by laughing at me & abusing me & kissing upto ITTF is more improtant to him than serving the REAL needs of pips players or helping South African kids taking my $5000. All he had to do was take a tax deductibe business vaction trip to Indonesia (& even China & Korea) and make deals with suppliers there to make exactly the high aspect ratio super long rubbers that blocking and chopping players need. I would do it myself but since I am USA it is hard to do European markets but since Tony'sTableTennis already has a shop he could easily distribute to huge markets of China, India, Korea etc as well as European markets.
This is also why this is a great business opportunity form someone in Germany to make boatloads of money.
Because high aspect ratio super long pips are coming one way or the other regardless of how much ITTf hates it & desperately tries to block it.. Pips / anti players will eventually wake up to ITTF's con games
It is all just a matter of time since more & more higher quality higher quality lomng pips are laready coming out of China & possibly Korea. Teh cost is low in Indonesia & this can be fully exploited businesswise benefiting Indonesian economy as well.

 

[James Z]

I saw that post that was deleted.
I play with LPs from time to time.
If you want "fricitonless" push blocking LPs, the UV trick works well. The LPs are "done" when they start to smell. If you over "cook" them the pips become brittle.
The length of the pips doesn't make any difference. Minimizing the surface area and making the pip close to brittle is what reduce friction. "Frictionless" anti rubber is close to brittle. I know that it will wrinkle when it is removed and be ruined.
Increasing spacing reduces the surface area thus reducing friction.

Chopping LPs work best with longer LPs but not too long. I think there is an optimal length to width. Choppers try at add spin to the ball with their tangential chop. This bends the pips which exposes more surface area for more friction. Chopping pips should be bendable, not almost "brittle" still like push blocking LPs. If you go to OOAK you will sometimes people mention side swiping to control the ball better. Side swiping bends the pips and causes the ball to rotate so it doesn't float like a "knuckle ball" does. Actually and tangential motion when striking the ball with bendable pips will cause spin. I have found when hitting with my pips I must hit through the ball so I don't put any spin on the ball or it will curve and sometime not land on the table.
I have two Firewall+ with Giant Dragon Talon 0X on them for push blocking and one Donic Defplay Senso V3 with 1.4mm TSP Curl P-1r for chopping. The two setups are completely different although I can push block a little with the chopping paddle if I block off the bounce and push through the ball in an effort not to bend the pips to minimize friction.

There are MPs and some SPs like 799 or 802-1 with relatively small pips or small pip density. If I UV treated these they would become almost frictionless too.

What I don't like about my Firewall+ with GD Talon 0X is there is NO sponge to absorb energy. Hard fast loops will often bounce long off the table if I don't use "soft hands" You don't want a sponge because it less the ball sink in a bit and it bends the pips. What I would like some company to do is to put the LP on a hard but dead sponge. The hard sponge would not let the ball sink in too far and because it is dead it would not return much energy. I have a Chinese anti call Giant Dragon Guard. It is not frictionless, it just has a harder dead sponge. You can push on the top sheet and still see your finger print so you know the sponge it returning little energy to the ball. This is the kind of sponge I would like to see someone try on a LP. I just haven't looked for dead sponges. I think 1mm is thick enough since "bottoming out" is not an issue. The hard sponge would help but the next problem is that incoming fast spinny loops will bend the pips if I just block and this causes friction with will also cause the ball to bounce high.

I don't mean to be rude honestly but is this the right thread for trying to educate pips /anti users on various social rubbers on ITTF LARC that are totally useless in the 40+ plastic ball era ?

If I am not mistaken I thought this thread is for discussing high aspect ratio super long pips that are the ONLY highly functional rubbers for serious blockers & choppers in the 40+ plastic ball era

The pips / anti users are already confused enough by ITTTF disinformation agents who try to convince pips /anti players that ITTF knows what is good for pips /anti players & cares about them & loves them & therefore should stick with useless pips on ITTF LARC & this only adds more to that confusion

I used to play in a club called Mammoth on 38th St & 8th Ave in Manhattan

This club was located above a strip club I believe LOL .
I played a tournament there desperately trying to break 2000 from a rating of 1960.
I lost 6 matches to 2100 to 2400 players all like deuce in the third.
Tim Boggan beat me deuce in the third.
My only bad loss was to Deepak Jain (around 2300), brother of later US team member Ashu, killed me.
My only consolation was that I destroyed a 2200 blocker (he will remain namesless as I got to know him later on) like 4 & 5 (in 21 point games).
So I ended up gaining only 10 points altogether & still did not breal 2000. Had to wait few more months.
The ceiling was low (I used to sky lob a whole lot from my forehand) & I am sure I would have won one or two more matches if not for that
I saw Marty Reisman there but he was not in my round robin group. He was still around 2100 then

The Open finals was between 1988 Olympics Gold Medalist Chen Jing who beat Olympian Micheel Hyatt I think. She flew 25 hours from another tournament in Taiwan & went right to the table. I believe she was considering moving to USA but eventually did not. I believe she was shipped out of mainland for whatever reason & I am sure China was not too happy with her winning gold for Taiwan in the Gold in first Olympics

I answer some of your question that were on your deleted thread.

Oh Ok Sorry.
But I do not agree with some of your thoughts but it is OK

Wow, it is both an art and a science! I have a couple sheets of friendship long pips and DHS long pips I want to play with. I will have reference this post later. and probably watch some YouTube videos.

Ok now this is beginning to freak me out. On second thought may be BrokenBall should have started a separate thread to sing praise of the low length low length low aspect ratio low PDD so called long pips on ITTF LARC social rubbers that are absolutely useless in the 40+ plastic ball era.
This thread was originaly intended to discuss only high aspect ratio super long pips that are more functional for the 40+ plastic ball era & they are the future.
BTW BrokenBall's post has quite a few serious factual errors as well & I am not going to get into them since discussing about low length low aspect ratio low PDD so called long pips is a total waste of my time. As far yourselves, if you are just playing for fun it does not matter. But if you are playing competitively you time time is lot more valuable than wasting your time on useless outdated rubbers just because you happen to have them. Almost all of the RITC & DHS long pips may not even have been good even for 40- celluloid ball era.,

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what the heck are high aspect ratio long pips?

What are low length low aspect ratio low PDD so called "long" pips social rubbers that are listed on ITTF LARC ?

Sorry for being sarcastic but I posted a detailed explanation about pip design parameters that would have fully answered this question but the moderators keep deleting it.
I know the real reaons for it & understand why but still.................

If you played only hardbat for a while, you might change your mind. Plus, I didn’t recommend hardbat for anyone else. I recommended that if you tried it, you might like it. I bet you could beat a lot of the active members on here using hardbat. I have that feeling.

Examples: many times you have insisted that SP on BH was what you call a social rubber without ever considering why different people choose different equipment and that your assumption for why is the only answer to why they do it. I have a friend named Kunal Shah. Last time I saw him was years ago. But at the time he was 2350++ and he used SP on BH and he used them in a very antisocial way that punished his opponents. I have another friend named Rocky who, last I saw him was 2500+ and he used SP on BH. I assure you this was quite antisocial for his opponents to handle how hard he smacked the ball with his BH and how easily he set his opponents up.

But you even insist that players in the top 100 women’s division are using their equipment because of social pressure not to use what you would use.

Over and over you have posted about SP being social rubbers.

How many male pro shakehand players do you know in the history of the sport other than Johnny Huang (and may be Scott Boggan) were two winged short pips (with sponge) attackers ? (There may have been a few women as well)

How many male pro shakehands players do you know other than Mattias Falck who are even forehand short pips players let alone backhand shaehand short pips attackers ?

I always clarified there were exceptions to the rule

Over and over you have posted about SP being social rubbers.

Yes but only as a weakside (mostly backhand) rubber.
For weakside, as a general rule (of course there are always isolated exceptions possible as you point out above) high aspect ratio super long pips are far superior to anti or short pips or low length low aspect ratio low PDD so called long pips on ITTF LARC, especially for chopping and even for block & smash at the table. These rubbers have "become" social rubbers in the 40+ plastic ball ONLY era due to the 9 rule & regulation changes by ITTF since 1983.
While short pips is theoretically the best strong side rubber, it has way too many weakneses as a weakside rubber.

Short pips sits dead center in the middle of the spin continuum & it is a jack of all trades & master of none type of rubber. It has too many weaknesses as a weakside rubber compared to other rubber types
Check this chart

Remember that as far as weakside pips (& back spin & versatility& overall effectiveness) goes
chickens (short pips) can fly a little, doves (medium pips) can fly a little higher and bar-headed geese (LARC long pips) can fly much higher but Ruppell’s vulture (High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips) can soar the highest

Got it, thank you

Something to share:
BH is SP.

Extremely dangerous setup for a pro club with unbarriered tables with high risk of players stepping on balls and a serious injury. (I think they have the barriers)

ITTF needs to define some recommended standards for proper tabletennis setups (to include barriers even for recreational clubs. With doubles (not here) the risk of injury increases

Watch an angry Tony'sTableTennis now post videos of Ma Long etc doing multi-ball with balls all over the floor.

As far as BH being SP, these players would probably be much better off with blocking type high aspect ratio super long pips. Seems like this BH SP obsession is a big pandemic in Asia because I thought mostly Japan (at all levels) and then mainland China (at lower levels) had this disease thanks to Mima Ito & Hou Yingchao

I think, below it was a Korean billiards club and below that was a night club with an edge. The people who rant the TT club also ran the billiard and the other stuff in the building.

Oh now I see where the jokes about old world (not just Asia but all continents) clubs running multiple "other" activities. Reminded me of comedy sketch in the old TV show "in living color" where this immigrant (played by Alex Borstein) is running a dry cleaning store as well as a phone sex line

This is a rule change . So you need to submit to an AGM for vote by member Associations.
(Sorry this cannot be a regulation change that you sneak by, by just using ITTF Executive Council and it will take 10 to 20 years for anyone to get a clue as to why)
But AGM 2023 proposal submission cutoff date is closed.
Any national assocation can submit proposals for AGM 2024 however

Proposal :- Limit maximum blade size to 160 mm by 160 mm & all blades must be of symmetric composition & can be upto say 50% composite

Rationale :- Currently there are no limits on blade size (width and length) or blade symmetry. Attempts are being made by defenders asking for super large (like 170 by 170 mm) and asymmetric blades. This is a dangerous path for ITTF to allow and may negate all the amazing work done by ITTF passing 9 rule & regulation changes to protect the best athletes in the sport, the spooster supremacists to limit the capabilities of chopper, Therefore Kwanda Table Tennis Association requests that blade size be limited to 160 by 160 mm to promote & protect the growth of two winged loopers in tabletennis whose numbers have been dropping dangerously low due to increasing pips / anti nuisance.
Mandating allowing symmetric blades will ensure that more players can only play two winged looping game (even if they cannot) making the sport more homogeneous
Setting a minimum 50% composite would also help growth of two winged loopers and helping the sport become more homogenous & this would also ensure that more matches will have more third ball attacks with super short rallies that majority of players (two winged loopers) enjoy (to hell with spectators)

 

[brokenball]

The world is losing its freedoms one by one. A little here, then a little there. Eventually we all will be wearing black pajamas because that is all we can afford, and we all will be homogeneous. Oh sh!t, I am now wearing black shorts and black tee shirt.

Will the non-homogeneous cybershape bladed be outlawed too or does this only discriminate against choppers?

 

[James Z]

Hopefully this will be the last purchase for a long, long time

Ha Ha I don't think so.
As Baal said, the correct number of blades you should own is always N+1 , where N is your current total

Don't try to either flat kill or (straight topspin loop kill) .
They will keep comimg back as it is reasonably easy to return
Trying to loopkill a short high ball is such a waste of energy because you do not need the top spin. All your energy should be used for speed and not spin in this case.

However you can use use side chop kills with your returns landing close to either side line on opponents's side
The heavy side spin combined with back spin will take away lot of control for the receiver.
Yes you are using (back & side spin) but the weird way the ball travels gives your opponent lesss control in their returns.
This takes some practice but is easy to practice. When I use dto coach first timers, one thing I used to do is drop the ball high close to the net on their side & ask them to smash it. Many future speed freaks absolutely loved it.
You can do the same practising the side chop kill

If you side chop kill to the extreme right and short of a righthander , you can pull the opponent way out towards their right. Their return will be weak unless they do an aroung the net slider , which you can just drop block towards their extreme left (yes the drop block is a difficult stroke but so is around the net slider, which Adam Bobrow has mastered). You drop lock will have a natural angle in the right direction (towards their left) against a side spin ball coming from your opponents extreme right . Theerfore this is a safe return

As a general rule however if the ball is high & close to the net you don't don't loop. You flat kill or chop kill.
If the ball is close to the end line or has crossed the end line , then you use loop kill to use the top spin to control the ball.
Flat kills against long balls using a smooth spinny inverted rubber or (high aspect ratio super) long pips rubber are more risky but is somewhat less risky if you are using short pips or anti, because the ball may slide significantly silde off sweet spot (using short pips or anti) depending on amount of incoming spin. Of course the pro will still make the shot lot more likely regardless than an amateur.

In Canada more then 100 participants its big tournament ))))

US Open Teams (used to be in Detroit then Baltimore) & now in beautiful National Harbor near Washinton DC held in Every Thankgiving weekend (last week of November) is one of the biggest tournaments.
In all fairness so OldUser Who hates Americans & Chinese & just about everthing non-French) won't get upset, the World Veterans Championships (WVC) that was supposed to be in Marseille, France in 2020 would have been one of the biggest with 5000+ players. It got filled almost as soon as it opened up for registration I think & a long waiting list in 2019 already. It was cancelled of course due to COVID.

I suspect the 2024 World Masters (WVC renamed & now going to be run by ITTF & not by Scholer's Swaythiling Group) will also be like this as it is going be held in Rome. I highly recommend all pips players to use high aspect ratio super long pips for this tournament.(with permission from umpires of course unlike you know who) But I am not sure I would go to play few matches even if you include consolation rounds because they removed Mixed doubles (Talk about diversity & ITTF). I beleive they added it in WVC 2023 in Muscat ,Oman because there were not many participants but then they promptly removed it for Rome.

On a side note one of the biggest weekly leagues in the world is the USATT League I designed & ran between 2007-2011 in Charlotte NC (still going strong) with about 50+ player nights then with 6 to 7 divisons. San Diego may have been bigger but after COVID I do not know if it returned at that level.

Isn't a Badminton smash hit over the head like a tennis serve?

Side chop kill is somewhat similar

When is the ball that high?

When your opponent is not Richard Bergmann or Michael Maze or Mikael Appelgren or Hans Alser or Jacques Secretin, who can land their returns consistently near your end line again & again & again

Unless all this was explained by Trump in his top secret SCI docuement in Bedminster, NJ to invade Iran & capture this Iranian player, I am not buying any of these explanations.
I am just a low level perosn who used to have only just secret clearance and not even top secret ( I checked my kitchen & bathroom cabinets for any documents (on this issue) that I forgot to return & it is not there either)

With this I think he meant just hitting the ball top down.

Cheers
K-zr

I have seen badminton players use this kind of sidespin motion in either direction
Sort of like tomahawk serve in table tennis.
If you don't like badminton example use McEnroe;s vicious slice serve.
Using a motion like a twist serve (opposite of slice serve) in tennis or using a motion like reverse tomahawk in tabletennis is also possible & I have seen players do this but is much harder.

That motion hardly usable as a serve return,

I was not talking about serve returns. Neither was it OP's question
I was talking about your returns againsy high short balls but using various serve motion (not serve return motion)

I use as a smash with sidespin on high ballon balls.

That is exactly what I was referring to as side chop kill except that you left out the "chop"

 

[James Z]

Will the non-homogeneous cybershape bladed be outlawed too or does this only discriminate against choppers?

Very good question
But the answer is quite simple.
If the cybershape (or any other shape) will help choppers more loopers, then just ban it

But he was talking about short serve returns…

Sorry, not the way I interpreted it He only said high short balls not high short serves
Because if it is a high short serve you just whack it (flat kill) on either side. Why bothe rwith all the crazy & fancy banana flick. The banana flick has spin. Why nother with giving soem of the energy to spin when 100% of your stroke should be dedicated to maximizing the speed (I am only taking about high short ball whetehr serve or just a return from your opponent. If it is a low short ball whether serve or oppoenent's return, yes , as teh OP says, one can use banana flick , which has teh side top spin needed to control the ball & land it on other side safely)

I still see mixed doubles for Rome... (registered couple of days ago)

Sorry My bad

What is wrong with choppers?

I hate all pips & anti players. They must be banned

I don't understand why you have this crusade to make play difficult or impossible for choppers.

9 rule and regulation changes has still not forced the pips / anti players to leave the sport & leave the goodfellows alone

Do you know what an impulse is?

When I see a sexy woman...........oh never mind

How does the size of the paddle affect the range of impulses that a paddle can make? Really?!

Ok I know absolutely for sure that I get more backspin with a larger blade , a superlarge blade
If not why do think all the top choppers use large blades ?

Why did Angelica Rozeanu & many hardbat players use superlarge blades ?
Why do you think Pete May uses super large blades. They get more back spin
(BTW you also get more topspin if you are using spinny inverted rubber . But two wing loopers need smaller lighter blades when they play close to the table or mid distance for quicker hand movements)

I do not know or care about what a range of impulse is or all that physics non sense or your standard deviation etc.
I feel how I feel & I know after testing like 30 years that I can achieve a higher looper torture index using a super large blade & high aspect ratio super pips against my illegally spoosted opponents . I am absolutely positive any other amateur or pro player can do the same if high aspect ratio super long pips are approved. But that is exactly why ITTF won't approve it.. They severely want to limit the choppers (since they cannot ban them because of political reasons) while protecting the 2.4.7 violators.

Are you saying you do not understand my whole post about proposing a 10th change is extreme sarcasm about ITTF's corrupt conduct in passing the other 9 rule & regulation changes since 1983

But I do know I can vary my backspin or to very little spin much better using a super large blade & high aspect ratio super long pips much better than most short pips users imagine in their minds that they do like Hou Yingchao.

So let me ask you this then.
Are you saying that the pip length, aspect ratio, PDD are set at the correct value by the ITTF that is fair to choppers & defenders and for a level & fair playing field & 40+ plastic ball ONLY era that would also promote spectator interest ?
I already know what your answer & blahness's etc answer is. All that does not matter. Only technique matters.

I backspin to backspin rally,

Just curious
How does this exactly work now ?
What kind of opponents would engage in this both ay pro & amateur levels ?

Compared to LP, how easy is it to chop incoming topspin with spinpip?

To understand this better you need to ask yourself the follwing few questions.

1. Which came first ? Long pips or short pips
2. What are traditional short pips designs compared to neo short pip (like spin pips) designs
3. What is the very purpose of invention of long pips ?
4. How do the operational mechanics of short pips differ from long pips & what ITTF rules or regulations control this ?
5. Can you visualize where long pips & short pips sit on the spin continuum ?
6. How does a rubber that an amateur buys (such as spin pips) differ from what the pro is given by the manufacturer (with the same brand name such as spin pips for Ding Song)

So I'm wondering... Perhaps I'm getting old to be a defender?

Definitely yes.
I used to be a far far away fom the table chopper, mostly backhand chops with Long pips & forehand lobbing & some counter-looping away from table & ick hitting at the table mostly using forehand
But I probably have lost 50% of foot speed now.
I can still chop away from the table & I have been learning to chop using both long pips & inverted from forehand

Even though choppers are far superior athletes (but loopers have brilliantly brainwashed them into believing them the opposite & I always admired loopers in a strange sort of way for this amazing powers of persuasion) in all fairness loopers slow down as well.

So the only solution seems to be staying close to the table blocking but you need excellent reflexes & feel for this & these are worst parts of my game . But I have no choice as I age. So I have been learning to stay close & block covering the entire table using long pips. This is a hard transition but no other options.

When you say defender there are in general two kinds of defenders. One is (away from the table) choppers and other is close to the table blockers. So it seems that you are an away from the table chopper

running back and forth to be close to the table, far from the table,

Don't forget left to right as well, covering the most extreme angles.

Though luckily I never had any knee problems (except for aging related just as getting up from sitting down etc) sometimes I can feel like the knee is going to come off its socket (or whatever medical term for that) anytime if I try to move left or right a bit too fast.
So I wear knee compression supports as a preventive measure.
I got a better appreciation for this when a 4 feet 5 inch 10 year old kid challenged me to a one on one game in basketball. I only laughed because I am like 6'1" and an ex high school & college player. Of course I did not play because it is an unfair matchup but more because I did not want to break my knees and other parts of my body. i have learned to limit myself to just shooting NBA 3 pointers and NBA 4 point experimental markers under testing & even this is very painful on my elbow & shoulder. Sad part is that I was a leaper who could dunk (when it was illegal then) & I feel lucky if I can touch the bottom of the net now

I am currently using an all around type high aspect ratio super long pips OX (Magic 77). more so because good chopping type high aspet ratio super long pips are still not available yet. You may want to try that for your transition to close to the table & learn to play close to the table with occasional chopping.

Currently only the singles finals are 7 games

Also should at least doubles finals also be 7 games ?

Click on link below to goto the websites of 20 or so clubs to visit for practice (make new friends........in my case foes) if you are coming to play at US Nationals 2023 at Forth Worth

Table Tennis in Dallas Forth Worth area

Fun is actually so important.

No. Fun is just a good byproduct.
You either compete (I used to) or play just for exercise (like now) .
Losing is ok but claiming to play only to have fun is an excuse to explain away losing.


Bad loser

Extremely dangerous setup for a pro club with unbarriered tables with high risk of players stepping on balls and a serious injury. (I think they have the barriers)

ITTF needs to define some recommended standards for proper tabletennis setups (to include barriers even for recreational clubs. With doubles (not here) the risk of injury increases

The video below maybe the proper way to do multi-ball
https://youtu.be/iCgHBTPBq_Q
Another player quickly removes the balls (this reduces the risk of injury of the player in training stepping on a ball & falling down)
Of course a ball picker tool is needed for a faster cleanup
Maasimo is well known but how many of you recognize the player picking up the balls ?
Of course the tables are barriered

<Make me a moderator I wil ban the guy posting in red. Ban Bana Ban > When I get tired, someone else takes over.
I don't think he will ever give it a rest, not after so many decades

Oh come on Tony'sTable tennis . Pleased give me a break. It has benn only just 9 rule & regulation changes since 1983 to oppress choppers / defenders. This is my written promise I will stop after 15 changes

or

ITTF bans all pips / anti

or

IOC expels Table Tennis from Olympics to replace it with Pole Dancing

or ITTF bans you.

This is the problem with your limited thinking inside the box.
If ITTF bans me, I could play in lots of tournaments in USA and worldwide that are that are not affiliated with ITTF or its affiliates like USATT etc.
In fact I beg the USATT to ban me. That would be the ultimate badge of honor.
ITTF or its affiliates are not the sole supreme authority for the sport of table tennis though ITTF would like everyone to think so.

Also ITTF affiliates do not have to enforce every ITTF rule or regulation in their sanctioned tournaments.
For example , starting in November, 2000, USATT officially waived the two color rule of 1983. Not many players know this because they think two color rule applies to all USATT tournaments just because it applies to ITTF events, which is farthest from the truth.

Why do you think ITTF had not banned all pips and anti, though they would love to.
It is because they do not want pips & anti players to form their own association and this would result in dilution of control & loss of revenue. ITTF learned its lesson in 1995 when ITTF tried to impose the glue ban when the glue freaks (Rev.Larry Hodges had a biggest voice in USA) threatened to form their own association & ITTF immediately backed off & repealed the glue bam immediately.
This is why ITTF is even afraid to enforce the booster ban of 2008 with rule 2.4.7 . That rule exists just to hoodwink the ITTF into thinking that tabletennis a safe sport & there are no health issues related to glue.

Was supposed to be a joke but I will entertain this nonsense. I'm sure I speak for most when I say we don't care why the ITTF banned pibs / anti. None of us are interested in your agenda.

But you did entertain my so called nonsense because you keep responding or joking about it
Please don'r stop . I need the bump

 

[ander999]

I keep losing brain cells as I read these posts.

 

[brokenball]

Very good question
But the answer is quite simple.
If the cybershape (or any other shape) will help choppers more loopers, then just ban it

What is wrong with choppers? I don't understand why you have this crusade to make play difficult or impossible for choppers.

What impulse can a chopper generate that an inverted player can't? Do you know what an impulse is? How does the size of the paddle affect the range of impulses that a paddle can make? Really?!

 

[Jslick89]

I think so....

 

[JJ Ng]

I think so....

I second that. May the best player win.

 

[ander999]

Oh come on Tony'sTable tennis . Pleased give me a break. It has benn only just 9 rule & regulation changes since 1983 to oppress choppers / defenders. This is my written promise I will stop after 15 changes

or

ITTF bans all pips / anti

or

IOC expels Table Tennis from Olympics to replace it with Pole Dancing

or ITTF bans you.

 

[ander999]

This is the problem with your limited thinking inside the box.
If ITTF bans me, I could play in lots of tournaments in USA and worldwide that are that are not affiliated with ITTF or its affiliates like USATT etc.
In fact I beg the USATT to ban me. That would be the ultimate badge of honor.
ITTF or its affiliates are not the sole supreme authority for the sport of table tennis though ITTF would like everyone to think so.

Also ITTF affiliates do not have to enforce every ITTF rule or regulation in their sanctioned tournaments.
For example , starting in November, 2000, USATT officially waived the two color rule of 1983. Not many players know this because they think two color rule applies to all USATT tournaments just because it applies to ITTF events, which is farthest from the truth.

Why do you think ITTF had not banned all pips and anti, though they would love to.
It is because they do not want pips & anti players to form their own association and this would result in dilution of control & loss of revenue. ITTF learned its lesson in 1995 when ITTF tried to impose the glue ban when the glue freaks (Rev.Larry Hodges had a biggest voice in USA) threatened to form their own association & ITTF immediately backed off & repealed the glue bam immediately.
This is why ITTF is even afraid to enforce the booster ban of 2008 with rule 2.4.7 . That rule exists just to hoodwink the ITTF into thinking that tabletennis a safe sport & there are no health issues related to glue.

Was supposed to be a joke but I will entertain this nonsense. I'm sure I speak for most when I say we don't care why the ITTF banned pibs / anti. None of us are interested in your agenda.