Video Footage Safe Thread

[jk1980]

Awesome stuff JK,

OK, one very quick tip would be to take the ball earlier.

I think you "get away" with playing it very late because you have a decent amount of spin on your FH and your opposition struggle with that.

Thank you, it might not be the most efficient but i just like it so much to loop the balls below net or even table level. I have experienced that players will have more trouble adjusting the blocking angle to the spin if i loop it from that low compared to just power looping everything from above net height. This is surely also down to the low level of opponents that would allow me to loop in the first place. I know that i will have to adjust and take very opportunity to loop the ball earlier to pressure the opponent more.

My coach surely wants me to take balls earlier and play them with more power than spin.

You actually look to be in pretty good position in general - However you absolutely need to move earlier.

Yes, my coach complains about me moving too late and i can only guess why i do move that late. I think i might have hit too many balls with the robot which of course is ok for building a stroke but totally missing the part where a human being is performing a stroke and from that humans movement you can derive where the ball will fly to. So what i notice in matches is, that i really only evaluate the path of the return ball once it was already hit by the opponent. I think most players will intuitively already judge the ball before it is hit, simply be the stroke/movement of the body of the opponent. I totally do not do that which leaves me very little time to adjust/move until the ball arrives.

I don't want to focuss on too many things at the same time while having a training match, so do you think prioritizing judging the opponents moves before he strikes it would be the most low hanging fruit to be able to get into positions earlier ? I just hope that i dont forget to watch the ball until i hit it, when i do focus so much on the opponent .

Thank you for the example with the screenshots. That is very clear what you mean to say.

You want to be in your original position, and ready to attack the ball much closer to the "top of the bounce".

Does that also incorporate perhaps starting closer to the table or is my distance to the table ok ? I feel that i did not have the ideal distance from the table yet or at least i am not sure if it is ok like it is (for doubles). One detremental factor surely is, that by playing in a small room i have gotten used to moving sideways out of the way for my doubles partner rather then backwards. That will also take some time to remediate.

I initially did not want to post this video, because i think it is not very helpful seeing snippets on such a low level.
So just for educational purpose, by "hitting it earlier" or "top of the bounce" is what i do in the first few strokes here "early" enough or would i even hit the ball over the table ?

in this example it was very easy to hit it earlier simply because it was like "training", where the ball came directly to me and i did not have to adjust at all. This is of course the rarest case and that is why i did not include it in my previous video.

Again, good hands get you out of it, but that won't be enough against better players.

Yeah, i totally get that. Especially since taking the ball late will give good players even more time to recover.

This should be a "relatively" easy fix because you can already do it in training - So it's just forcing yourself to be a little more active in anticipating your shots, and then executing them earlier.

So anticipation by watching the opponents stroke more closely or how do you do it ? I guess you do move already before the opponent actually hit the ball, dont you ?

thank you so much for taking the time to review, NDH

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Reset and watch: after your stroke you want to be reset and in a ready position for the next ball BEFORE your shot lands on your opponent's side of the table. Then you can watch what they do with the ball and read where they are going and what shot they are taking. This also means you can move towards where their shot is going just after contact and long before their shot is even 1/8th of the way to the net.

If you watch old footage of Waldner, any time an opponent tried to predict where he was going before he made a shot, he punished them by changing his shot and putting it on the opposite side to where they thought it was going.
You should be ready to move and watch before they contact the ball, and start moving just after they contact the ball so it is reading your opponent rather than guessing or "anticipating".

But if you understand about TT and angles, when your opponent is returning a shot from a certain position on his table, you should already not the places he actually can put the ball. Those things can be sorted out. For example: If your opponent has been brought the the extreme wide FH, he can't make a shot that will go to your extreme wide BH and angle away from you. Any shot that goes to your BH side from the extreme wide FH will have to be angled towards your FH side.

 

[jk1980]

Reset and watch: after your stroke you want to be reset and in a ready position for the next ball BEFORE your shot lands on your opponent's side of the table. Then you can watch what they do with the ball and read where they are going and what shot they are taking. This also means you can move towards where their shot is going just after contact and long before their shot is even 1/8th of the way to the net.

Ok, got you. Recover is a big thing missing in my game for sure. That will be put on my "to do"-list, but probably only after i learned to always watch the ball until i hit it and watching the stroke of the opponent.

If you watch old footage of Waldner, any time an opponent tried to predict where he was going before he made a shot, he punished them by changing his shot and putting it on the opposite side to where they thought it was going.

That is exactly what happens if i play against the more experienced players and they do tell me "i saw that you went that way, so i changed the direction of the ball to the side you were not covering". I guess i just need to internalize many more things that dont come automatic for me, so that i free up my attention to this stuff to focus on.

You should be ready to move and watch before they contact the ball, and start moving just after they contact the ball so it is reading your opponent rather than guessing or "anticipating".

Ok, got it. That is a very specific small time slot =)

But if you understand about TT and angles, when your opponent is returning a shot from a certain position on his table, you should already not the places he actually can put the ball. Those things can be sorted out. For example: If your opponent has been brought the the extreme wide FH, he can't make a shot that will go to your extreme wide BH and angle away from you. Any shot that goes to your BH side from the extreme wide FH will have to be angled towards your FH side.

I can imagine the angles and basically the triangle of possible ball trajectories from the opponent when i am thinking about it outside of a match easily, but thinking about this while doing it is still far out.

I just hope that once i perhaps am playing 2 or 3 years that i can focus on these things, because the rest should be learned by heart by then.

thank you for your notes

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It is hard to watch the opponent if you are not already set. It is like saying you plan to work on watching a target with your back turned to the target; more accurately, while you are turning but still can’t see the target. If you are not reset, even if you are trying to look, what you are trying to watch will be hard to see. Much easier to see it after you are reset. So, cart before horse.

You can train the reset with SHADOW STROKES. Reset is all about muscle memory and getting the reset into muscle memory.

 

[jk1980]

It is hard to watch the opponent if you are not already set. It is like saying you plan to work on watching a target with your back turned to the target; more accurately, while you are turning but still can’t see the target. If you are not reset, even if you are trying to look, what you are trying to watch will be hard to see. Much easier to see it after you are reset. So, cart before horse.

You can train the reset with SHADOW STROKES. Reset is all about muscle memory and getting the reset into muscle memory.

so what you basically are saying is it is way more sensible to get the whole body into the ready position before thinking about watching the ball or opponent ? I think apart from that ready position stance i still lack the understanding what i good position (in relation to the table) would be that i should aim to stand it.

Would it be sensible to assume that a good position to take the ready position is basically the mirror position of the opponent (if he is also right handed) ?

So if the opponent stands far in his backhand while receiving or striking my ball, should i also stand far in my backhand or is it more independent of the opponents position ? Logically i think mirroring would make most sense, doesn't it ?

 

[JeffM]

It has been hard to get people enthusiastic about tt and able to train from where I am, so yesterday I made some decent effort to drive to another town and got 2 hour training with this guy.
We did lots of drills targetting different areas. This one is about backhand open up, something that I have been focusing on alot consciously but just didn't have the opportunity to train apart from during games.

I would appreciate your feedback.
Cheers.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi Jeff,

You tend to not get down with your waist very much on your BH opener... also your bat drops to maybe the top of your man zone. This promotes a drive without a ton of spin - a valid shot, but not a loop and not as safe as a spinier shot. Your opponent blocks into the net a lot on these.

Try getting the hips down a little more and dropping the bat another 10-20 cm for more spin and safety.

 

[JeffM]

Hi Jeff,

You tend to not get down with your waist very much on your BH opener... also your bat drops to maybe the top of your man zone. This promotes a drive without a ton of spin - a valid shot, but not a loop and not as safe as a spinier shot. Your opponent blocks into the net a lot on these.

Try getting the hips down a little more and dropping the bat another 10-20 cm for more spin and safety.

Hi Der,
Thanks for the advice!
I thought I was getting quite low with my knees quite a bit, but perhaps still not low enough? I've been hitting the gym for that but Idk if I can manage even lower with bending the knees..
I will try dropping the bat a bit lower that next time.

 

[Richie]

Hi Der,
Thanks for the advice!
I thought I was getting quite low with my knees quite a bit, but perhaps still not low enough? I've been hitting the gym for that but Idk if I can manage even lower with bending the knees..
I will try dropping the bat a bit lower that next time.

You are bending the knees, which is good. You can try to bend more from the hips which will push your butt out, then push off so you use your legs to drive the movement. That's what I've been trying to aim more for, but it's easier said than done.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

so what you basically are saying is it is way more sensible to get the whole body into the ready position before thinking about watching the ball or opponent ? I think apart from that ready position stance i still lack the understanding what i good position (in relation to the table) would be that i should aim to stand it.

Would it be sensible to assume that a good position to take the ready position is basically the mirror position of the opponent (if he is also right handed) ?

So if the opponent stands far in his backhand while receiving or striking my ball, should i also stand far in my backhand or is it more independent of the opponents position ? Logically i think mirroring would make most sense, doesn't it ?

Of course you should not stop trying. But you can work on resetting to a ready position. And you can work on it whether you are at the table or not because you can work on the ready position in shadow strokes which will actually also help the mechanics of your stroke. A few min in front of a mirror ever so often will actually be quite helpful to the mechanics of the stroke and the reset.

The ready position is after your stroke's followthrough position, bringing your racket back to a position where you could backswing for FH or BH. It does not have to be a specific position. And it should be, wherever you were when you to the stroke you are resetting from. The purpose is to be in a position where you can watch and see where the next ball goes, so you can start moving towards the next ball as soon as you can.

If the ready position involved something more than just bringing your racket back towards your body so you were stable and could watch before your opponent contacted the ball, you would not be able to get into that position before your shot bounces on your opponent's side.

Backswing - Stroke - Reset - Backswing - Stroke - Reset. The reset should take about the same amount of time as the backswing and less time than the stroke. Often people still learning mechanics do the backswing and the stroke, and then just get stuck for way too long in the followthrough.

Often the reset position is described as having both your hands a little in front of you and sort of squared towards the table. But there is no real position that the reset has to be. You just need to be in a position where, if you see the ball is going to your FH, you are ready to backswing as you footwork. AND, if you see the ball is going to the BH, you are ready to backswing as you footwork. So, the position should be neutral enough that you could backswing to either wing.

Often tennis players will hold the racket with both hands in the reset position. Often when you see tennis players who don't really play TT they will do that in TT as well. That would actually be a fine reset position. But it is just an example, as long as where you are holding your racket does not block your view of your opponent. But the reset is before you would move to a next position. It needs to be so fast that you don't have more time than to bring the racket back from the followthrough position and make it so you can see more clearly.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Mini tourney today. It was close, I won the first set and third. In the fifth and final set, the score was 11-9 in my opponent's favour. However I was generally pleased with my game play as I was able to execute my tactics. in total I played four games; I won two games and lost two, all four games were Men Singles.

I did not video all the four games as they are probably the same style. Only thing is some games I made less mistake ( FH smash / BH drive stay on table and less mistake on returning serves ) and won.

Correction: After reviewing the video more carefully, I won set 2 & 3 but lost set 1,4 & 5. Set 5 was lost with the thinnest margin. Credit to NL for pointing out my mistake. In the fifth and final set I was leading 10-9. I lost the next three points due to my own serving mistake and bad receive. What a waste. The final score in the decider set was 12 - 10 in my opponent's favour.

 

[NextLevel]

Mini tourney today. It was close, I won the first set and third. In the fifth and final set, the score was 11-9 in my opponent's favour. However I was generally pleased with my game play as I was able to execute my tactics. in total I played four games; I won two games and lost two, all four games were Men Singles.

Memory is an interesting thing.

1) You definitely *lost* the first game/set, but won games/sets 2 and 3.
2) You either lost deuce in the 5th or at 8, but I am not in the mood to count seriously.

Your game is clearly better on things like serve and touch, but the issues I (and others have identified) are still there without any serious progress (Since I have given the spiel on equipment speed affecting your play, I won't waste time with it anymore).

I think the biggest thing that would help you is to be able to construct points and win with three shot combinations ( three if you include the serve, two to three if you do not). Most of your attacks have to win on the first shot to work, and that doesn't build comfortable or reliable table tennis, though it can be a winning style if you know how to *get* the opportunities reliably, but you currently don't seem to, and when you get them, you often go for so much on the first shot that it isn't consistently landing, and thankfully, your opponents are not at the level where you get embarrassed by the ball coming back. But for your improvement, you need to combine shots with better placements and redirections. Whether this is tied to the equipment speed thing, I don't know, but no need to repeat that again. You seem to be happy with your power winning points but seem to gloss over all the points it is costing you in inconsistency. Long story short, try to find ways to more consistently open with less pace (and usually more spin) and expect the ball to come back and play another more powerful shot on the second or third opportunity, not always go for broke on the first.

Good luck and good job with all the time you have clearly put into training and playing. Remember, the most common response to a decent topspin opening (heavy or light spin) is a block. And blocks are usually easier to hit than pushes.

 

[NextLevel]

It has been hard to get people enthusiastic about tt and able to train from where I am, so yesterday I made some decent effort to drive to another town and got 2 hour training with this guy.
We did lots of drills targetting different areas. This one is about backhand open up, something that I have been focusing on alot consciously but just didn't have the opportunity to train apart from during games.

I would appreciate your feedback.
Cheers.

I like it a lot. I think you can go for more power on some of the shots - tuck the racket a bit in between the legs or on your left hip (not literally, but it will feel that way, so you get some forward as well as upward motion) then you can add power to the shot on demand, You might also feel what DerEchte is saying a bit more. And you can get good spin from there as well if you want that option.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Memory is an interesting thing.

1) You definitely *lost* the first game/set, but won games/sets 2 and 3.
2) You either lost deuce in the 5th or at 8, but I am not in the mood to count seriously.

Your game is clearly better on things like serve and touch, but the issues I (and others have identified) are still there without any serious progress (Since I have given the spiel on equipment speed affecting your play, I won't waste time with it anymore).

I think the biggest thing that would help you is to be able to construct points and win with three shot combinations ( three if you include the serve, two to three if you do not). Most of your attacks have to win on the first shot to work, and that doesn't build comfortable or reliable table tennis, though it can be a winning style if you know how to *get* the opportunities reliably, but you currently don't seem to, and when you get them, you often go for so much on the first shot that it isn't consistently landing, and thankfully, your opponents are not at the level where you get embarrassed by the ball coming back. But for your improvement, you need to combine shots with better placements and redirections. Whether this is tied to the equipment speed thing, I don't know, but no need to repeat that again. You seem to be happy with your power winning points but seem to gloss over all the points it is costing you in inconsistency. Long story short, try to find ways to more consistently open with less pace (and usually more spin) and expect the ball to come back and play another more powerful shot on the second or third opportunity, not always go for broke on the first.

Good luck and good job with all the time you have clearly put into training and playing. Remember, the most common response to a decent topspin opening (heavy or light spin) is a block. And blocks are usually easier to hit than pushes.

Thanks NL for your pointers. I can't say much but just try to build my game that I am comfortable with. About the spin, I do not seem to be able to spin much during game but rely on smash / flat hitting to get the points. In stroking I can spin well. After much thinking, I self-diagnose my problem to be lack of footwork. I do not have the lithe footwork to get into good position to do good topspin shots. Hence I rely a lot of one shot one kill to get the points.

NB: I especially love those serve and 3rd ball kill points. I love em to bits!

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL for your pointers. I can't say much but just try to build my game that I am comfortable with. About the spin, I do not seem to be able to spin much during game but rely on smash / flat hitting to get the points. In stroking I can spin well. After much thinking, I self-diagnose my problem to be lack of footwork. I do not have the lithe footwork to get into good position to do good topspin shots. Hence I rely a lot of one shot one kill to get the points.

Very fast setups challenge your ability to play good topspin shots, especially when you are not in position (they don't give good arc so you can't bend it like Beckham, but they produce great shots when you are there on time). But as you said, you were happy with how you played and how you executed your tactics. That is the most important thing by far and what keeps us playing.

 

[SleepyMaster]

JK, I was not able to seeing your posts, since I blocked you, when I was not in the best mood. If the guys telling, that you can spin - I believe them. And im taking my words back on that.
Actually, sorry for insulting too, life is to short to be mean to some one. Good luck to you, and keep progressing on, not matter what level you are

 

[SleepyMaster]

I make a few videos from my no sleep tourney:

In the highlight there was just some fun moments, and rallies (not all the games where recorded) full set with pip player, that is down below, where not included in it

Set with pip player

What do you think guys, how bad I’m, from the level from 1 to 10 🤭

 

[NextLevel]

You only played 2 guys whose games I could read, and the guy in green looks like a decent and better player. The others (and even the two guys) give you a lot of time, the game is too slow IMHO, maybe it is the camera angle and the lack of sleep. But it will help to see one complete match against one opponent. For different reasons (waking up early to drive to a tournament), plenty of my competitive TT play is sleep-deprived, but the game is fun so no one really cares.

 

[SleepyMaster]

You only played 2 guys whose games I could read, and the guy in green looks like a decent and better player. The others (and even the two guys) give you a lot of time, the game is too slow IMHO, maybe it is the camera angle and the lack of sleep. But it will help to see one complete match against one opponent. For different reasons (waking up early to drive to a tournament), plenty of my competitive TT play is sleep-deprived, but the game is fun so no one really cares.

Thanks for the feedback, NL!

The low camera angle make the game
looks slower than it is.

There are few good guys, the guy in green we often having 50/50 results with him. He is a good player. Looping everything that he can, and on a decent spin/speed. I think he is about 1900-2000 player, he is doing TT for 7 years or so.

Pip player is slow, and kinda weird technique, I didn’t find really much trouble to play against him. But those pips can be annoying, and I pushed them few times more that I should, again my brain didn’t work as it doing with normal amount of sleeping

And the one, with beard in full black outfit is good too. He has really strong spin on his loops, with slightly better stability than the green one. We have 40/60 on his side winning. But on the last two tourneys I was able to win somehow 3:1.

And few more guys are even better in results and level, but they are 11+ years in the bucket. I сan win one or two sets from them, never able to win a full game. I have needed to get 4 wins to get to those players. But when I did i it - the games didn’t recorded for some reason this time. Battery was dead - it giving ability to make 2 hours of video, and then it’s just turn off.

Not much sleep is not as bad, like 6 hours or so, but when its 2-3 hours, it’s really influenced reaction and focus, i did a serve, and immediately forget what type of the serve I did. The same thing with the serve receive.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks for the feedback, NL!

The low camera angle make the game
looks slower than it is.

There are few good guys, the guy in green we often having 50/50 results with him. He is a good player. Looping everything that he can, and on a decent spin/speed. I think he is about 1900-2000 player, he is doing TT for 7 years or so.

Pip player is slow, and kinda weird technique, I didn’t find really much trouble to play against him. But those pips can be annoying, and I pushed them few times more that I should, again my brain didn’t work as it doing with normal amount of sleeping

And the one, with beard in full black outfit is good too. He has really strong spin on his loops, with slightly better stability than the green one. We have 40/60 on his side winning. But on the last two tourneys I was able to win somehow 3:1.

And few more guys are even better in results and level, but they are 11+ years in the bucket. I сan win one or two sets from them, never able to win a full game. I have needed to get 4 wins to get to those players. But when I did i it - the games didn’t recorded for some reason this time. Battery was dead - it giving ability to make 2 hours of video, and then it’s just turn off.

Not much sleep is not as bad, like 6 hours or so, but when its 2-3 hours, it’s really influenced reaction and focus, i did a serve, and immediately forget what type of the serve I did. The same thing with the serve receive.

Yeah, for different reasons I used to get sometime 3 hrs before driving another 3 to play. But I am older now with family, not going to do that any time soon.

Yes the black on black guy looked interesting as well. Even the pips guy looked better in the solo video but again too passive. The green guy needs better serve, but these are all decent players, playing people always feels different from watching them. And the camera angle was doing them no favors.

Well I guess we just have to wait for a better camera and sleep day!