Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

[NextLevel]

It has been interesting reading these "debates"/"arguments". One of the things I learned pretty quickly when I trained table tennis was that if the hips/legs do not result in a significant movement of the chest/shoulder in the purported direction of movement, their contribution is debatable to put it politely. On most rally backhands, there is virtually no chest rotation so anyone arguing that the source of power is hip rotation clearly has a different definition of hip rotation vs what occurs on the forehand.

I don't know enough physiology to explain it but there is something about the rotation of the upper arm in the backhand topspin stroke that for me is more powerful than the analog on the forehand side. I think it is partly because the forehand side, the bending of the elbow confuses the power of the windshield wiper movement, but on the backhand, there is no such confusion. Some of this is easier to describe with video so maybe one day I might be motivated enough to discuss it, entertain criticism and get to a better understanding of what is happening.

That classic windshield wiper movement of the upper arm is incredibly strong and can hit good backhands with little hip rotation. Of course, it can be made more stable with the use and balance of other body parts, and leaning forward makes the plane of the swing more horizontal and less vertical. But it seems to be taboo to deny that using the body on a stroke in table tennis is almost useless for the stroke itself. But no, the backhand topspin is one stroke where upper body strength just gives good results.

That's my two cents.

 

[Dr Evil]

That classic windshield wiper movement of the upper arm is incredibly strong and can hit good backhands with little hip rotation. Of course, it can be made more stable with the use and balance of other body parts, and leaning forward makes the plane of the swing more horizontal and less vertical. But it seems to be taboo to deny that using the body on a stroke in table tennis is almost useless for the stroke itself. But no, the backhand topspin is one stroke where upper body strength just gives good results.

I agree you can get good results with little to no hip turn unless you're well off the table where the extra leverage makes a big difference. But even close to the table proper weight transfer adds a lot of useful power. Weight transfer doesn't require hip turn; it can be as simple as leaning forward at the right moment, and the movement can be small enough to be essentially invisible.

 

[NextLevel]

I agree you can get good results with little to no hip turn unless you're well off the table where the extra leverage makes a big difference. But even close to the table proper weight transfer adds a lot of useful power. Weight transfer doesn't require hip turn; it can be as simple as leaning forward at the right moment, and the movement can be small enough to be essentially invisible.

If every use of the body becomes called weight transfer, weight transfer will become a meaningless and confusing term to specific learners who want to use it to gain insight into how to use their body to play strokes.

 

[blahness]

IMO there are a few things to be said about this approach.

First, the only difference between the my two BH body usages is really the left/right movement. When you have time, twist more left right (both with legs and at the waist). Since the only adjustment needed is when you have time, well, time isn't an issue then.

Second, you should be able to identify a fast topspin versus one of the other possibilities you listed very, very early. A LP player will never give you a fast heavy topspin, for example. This is a separate topic, but I don't like serving short to pips players, especially not to the FH side. A short services to their BH side means that if they want to attack my weaker BH side the ball needs to come cross table, giving me more time to prepare. I also don't back off from the table to BH loop, if only for the reason that I don't know how to yet I mean, I've tried, but the quality and consistency are terrible, so I don't use it in games. I'm looking to add it to my arsenal though!

Your example of an inverted player punching dead or apply huge topspin suddenly is EXACTLY the reason I came to the conclusion I did. I had tremendous trouble against that exact scenario until I developed this. The small motion is quick enough yet allows me to create enough space to react to those balls. I had a lot of trouble developing this shot against the robot because the balls it produced just wasn't fast enough. The body usage (and fingers too, thx btw ) gave me the control I needed to counter those balls with as much power as I can muster instead of resorting to blocking.

I think in the end, I see the merit of your approach. It's a classic all-around vs. specialist debate. You pursue a consistency in approach, which itself should lead to some level of consistency if only due to the fact that you're using it every shot. I found 2 slightly different approaches, a default one that I believe gives me better reaction time, and a more powerful one for when I have more time.

LP players can use inverted too lol and they can absolutely give you topspin. But the damage is really done by fast nontopspin balls. My dead FH flick is one of such shots which a lot of inverted players dump into the net because they never saw fast nontopspin balls before. Without fast body/hip usage an attacker using these fast nontopspin balls will absolutely overwhelm your defences fast.

If you watch the women's game against pips players it's more telling. They do close table quality spinny loops against nontopspin balls as easily as they do it against topspin balls. Very few off them will give up the table and use a big loop stroke. The most telling is seeing Chen Meng or Sun Yingsha vs Ito Mima and how they early timing looped back all those nasty nontopspin hits by Mima perfectly. Even when Mima loops the ball back with topspin they're also in perfect position like a wall, unafraid of anything that is thrown at them. I did see such mistakes happening from other women especially the non Asian ones where Ito typically destroys them very hard just with these fast nontopspin balls.

It's a stereotype that you cannot have fast nontopspin balls - they absolutely exist and you'll have to deal with them eventually - often directly from the serve or receive. If you're limited to using a large stroke to loop them you're pretty much toast for the most part as you'll get jammed to death and if you leave the table or try pivoting your short area and wide FH is a big gaping hole. And if you don't have a fast hip rotation action to power a close table BH loop, you cannot generate sufficient quality against such balls to prevent a strong attack off your return.

You can avoid this weakness in some parts by trying clever serve/receive patterns but you cannot avoid it forever. Eventually they will sus you out and hammer you on any such weakness.

The benefit of consistent small stroke hip powered BH topspin, is that you can topspin everything with ease including nontopspin balls and even with the uncles who use dead rubber or pips. It took me a long time before I could actually reliably rally with them without resorting to trying to loopkill these balls.

 

[dingyibvs]

LP players can use inverted too lol and they can absolutely give you topspin. But the damage is really done by fast nontopspin balls. My dead FH flick is one of such shots which a lot of inverted players dump into the net because they never saw fast nontopspin balls before. Without fast body/hip usage an attacker using these fast nontopspin balls will absolutely overwhelm your defences fast.

If you watch the women's game against pips players it's more telling. They do close table quality spinny loops against nontopspin balls as easily as they do it against topspin balls. Very few off them will give up the table and use a big loop stroke. The most telling is seeing Chen Meng or Sun Yingsha vs Ito Mima and how they early timing looped back all those nasty nontopspin hits by Mima perfectly. Even when Mima loops the ball back with topspin they're also in perfect position like a wall, unafraid of anything that is thrown at them. I did see such mistakes happening from other women especially the non Asian ones where Ito typically destroys them very hard just with these fast nontopspin balls.

It's a stereotype that you cannot have fast nontopspin balls - they absolutely exist and you'll have to deal with them eventually - often directly from the serve or receive. If you're limited to using a large stroke to loop them you're pretty much toast for the most part as you'll get jammed to death and if you leave the table or try pivoting your short area and wide FH is a big gaping hole. And if you don't have a fast hip rotation action to power a close table BH loop, you cannot generate sufficient quality against such balls to prevent a strong attack off your return.

You can avoid this weakness in some parts by trying clever serve/receive patterns but you cannot avoid it forever. Eventually they will sus you out and hammer you on any such weakness.

The benefit of consistent small stroke hip powered BH topspin, is that you can topspin everything with ease including nontopspin balls and even with the uncles who use dead rubber or pips. It took me a long time before I could actually reliably rally with them without resorting to trying to loopkill these balls.

I can BH topspin everything fast close to the table without a waist turn though. Fast no spin services, inverted or SP hits, even backspins. If a LP guy is using a different side of the rubber, just adjust to that. If he can twiddle as fast as Batra and still be consistent, well he's just better and I'm not at that level.

But wait, if you're not loop killing them with your waist turn, how are you turning your waist exactly? When I turn my waist like you describe, that ball comes out with murderous intentions!

I really think you and I are describing the same thing as the pros who teach them, and you're making the same mistake as those pros thinking you're turning your waist when you're really not. All the effects, benefits, etc. of the shot you're describing is the same as mine, except you're describing it as a waist turn when I'm not.

 

[blahness]

I can BH topspin everything fast close to the table without a waist turn though. Fast no spin services, inverted or SP hits, even backspins. If a LP guy is using a different side of the rubber, just adjust to that. If he can twiddle as fast as Batra and still be consistent, well he's just better and I'm not at that level.

But wait, if you're not loop killing them with your waist turn, how are you turning your waist exactly? When I turn my waist like you describe, that ball comes out with murderous intentions!

I really think you and I are describing the same thing as the pros who teach them, and you're making the same mistake as those pros thinking you're turning your waist when you're really not. All the effects, benefits, etc. of the shot you're describing is the same as mine, except you're describing it as a waist turn when I'm not.

Nothing to do with the waist - it's all in the hips. Waist is slow af imo. It's another stereotype that you have to do 90 deg rotation for it to count as hip rotation. Against these fast balls (including long fast heavy sideunderspin) you're looking at something like 5-10 degrees hip rotation max, but my point is that it is there. The hip rotation is generated by the difference in knee bend angles between the 2 legs. In fact to go down the line you can actually rotate hips in the opposite direction for additional suddenness. I think you're thinking about 90 deg rotation like FH but this is obviously way too slow for BH - nobody does that anymore. Even on loopkills I'm only using maybe 30-45 deg.

 

[dingyibvs]

It has been interesting reading these "debates"/"arguments". One of the things I learned pretty quickly when I trained table tennis was that if the hips/legs do not result in a significant movement of the chest/shoulder in the purported direction of movement, their contribution is debatable to put it politely. On most rally backhands, there is virtually no chest rotation so anyone arguing that the source of power is hip rotation clearly has a different definition of hip rotation vs what occurs on the forehand.

I don't know enough physiology to explain it but there is something about the rotation of the upper arm in the backhand topspin stroke that for me is more powerful than the analog on the forehand side. I think it is partly because the forehand side, the bending of the elbow confuses the power of the windshield wiper movement, but on the backhand, there is no such confusion. Some of this is easier to describe with video so maybe one day I might be motivated enough to discuss it, entertain criticism and get to a better understanding of what is happening.

That classic windshield wiper movement of the upper arm is incredibly strong and can hit good backhands with little hip rotation. Of course, it can be made more stable with the use and balance of other body parts, and leaning forward makes the plane of the swing more horizontal and less vertical. But it seems to be taboo to deny that using the body on a stroke in table tennis is almost useless for the stroke itself. But no, the backhand topspin is one stroke where upper body strength just gives good results.

That's my two cents.

That's a very, very salient point. To that effect, I want those who aren't bored to death by this thread already to try something.

1) Hold your hand in front of your belly like you're at the end of a BH backswing and are about to swing forward, and keep it rigid so it would move with your body.

2) Now, rotate your waist a small degree to the left and right, what does your hand do? It also moves left and right as your body rotates, correct?

3) Next, kick your left hip out, and then tense up your body to return to a more neutral position. What does your hand do? It moves from left back to the right front, while moving slightly upward right?

So which direction is your racket supposed to move during a BH shot? Left to right, or left to right AND forward?

4) For funsies, do the same left/right waist movement, but this time go as much left as possibly can AND hold your racket all the way to your left, like you're about to make a massive swing. Now which direction is the racket going? Left rear to right front, correct?

I think it should be obvious from these exercises which type of body movement is useful for which type of shot. It should also be helpful in figuring out where your optimal strike zone is for each shot. That is, for the bigger swing the ball needs to be further to your left or you'll hit it too far to the right. Either that or you need to step up with your right foot, so the table is to your right instead of in front of you, so that when you hit the ball to your right it still lands (but obviously hurting your recovery).

 

[dingyibvs]

Nothing to do with the waist - it's all in the hips. Waist is slow af imo. It's another stereotype that you have to do 90 deg rotation for it to count as hip rotation. Against these fast balls (including long fast heavy sideunderspin) you're looking at something like 5-10 degrees hip rotation max, but my point is that it is there. The hip rotation is generated by the difference in knee bend angles between the 2 legs. In fact to go down the line you can actually rotate hips in the opposite direction for additional suddenness. I think you're thinking about 90 deg rotation like FH but this is obviously way too slow for BH - nobody does that anymore. Even on loopkills I'm only using maybe 30-45 deg.

Now we're getting somewhere. Here's the question that'll help us reach the moment of truth. When you do this rotation, how much does your upper body rotate as well? If it's at the waist, then the upper body will rotate about the same degree, if it's at the hip, then the upper body will rotate far less.

If the answer is the latter, then we're really talking about the same thing, and the confusion that caused our disagreement is exactly what learners would face. When they think of rotation, they think waist +/- hip, which is what's used in FH shots as well as BH loop kills. Even if you tell them to rotate the hip but not so much the waist, I bet most won't even know how to actually do that. For one, it's not really hip rotation, because that suggests rotation around the axis of the spine. The rotational axis here is actually around the right hip, as that's the fixed point.

I believe my way of describing it would help differentiate it from the FH loop and the BH loop kill motion, as well as laying a path forward of finding the feel for pulling off that motion.

 

[blahness]

Now we're getting somewhere. Here's the question that'll help us reach the moment of truth. When you do this rotation, how much does your upper body rotate as well? If it's at the waist, then the upper body will rotate about the same degree, if it's at the hip, then the upper body will rotate far less.

If the answer is the latter, then we're really talking about the same thing, and the confusion that caused our disagreement is exactly what learners would face. When they think of rotation, they think waist +/- hip, which is what's used in FH shots as well as BH loop kills. Even if you tell them to rotate the hip but not so much the waist, I bet most won't even know how to actually do that. For one, it's not really hip rotation, because that suggests rotation around the axis of the spine. The rotational axis here is actually around the right hip, as that's the fixed point.

I believe my way of describing it would help differentiate it from the FH loop and the BH loop kill motion, as well as laying a path forward of finding the feel for pulling off that motion.

The upper body also doesn't rotate that much. The FH loop hip rotation is completely different from the BH mechanism like what you said. Bh is achieved by bending the knees differently between legs.

A very simple experiment i used before to illustrate, If you keep both knees straight at first, and then bend your right knee only - this forces your right hip to go a bit forward and the left hip to go a bit backwards thus already achieving a small anticlockwise hip rotation. Vice versa is true too.

So from this simple experiment you can already see how a difference in knee bend angles between the 2 legs can produce hip rotation.

And this is the BH hip rotation mechanism that I'm referring to. Obviously the left leg can't be straight, but it is less bent compared to the right leg during the BH backswing. You can actually see the right knee come forward more during most pro players BH backswing.

Another point with waist usage, it is no longer needed too in the FH because it is way too slow (also injurious). In the modern gen TT (talking about Harimoto, LYJ, Lin Shidong, etc...) nobody really bends or twists at the waist anymore. You can see clearly that they keep it fixed and it turns as one whole unit, with the exception of maybe extreme scenarios. Not keeping the waist braced is the reason why a lot of older gen players have lower back injuries, and this was also what Li Sun mentioned in some videos.

But saying that there's no hip rotation could also lead people to think that they can just do everything with upper body, and imo while this is an important intermediate step (you need to figure out upper body before you add in lower body), it is also suboptimal because the lower body does add a lot of juice to the ball.

 

[Dr Evil]

If every use of the body becomes called weight transfer, weight transfer will become a meaningless and confusing term to specific learners who want to use it to gain insight into how to use their body to play strokes.

Well, weight transfer doesn't mean every use of the body. It means the ones that transfer weight. For example, try warming up your backhand with your arm alone, keeping your center of gravity static. Then continue the same movement, but add a slight shift of weight from your left foot to your right foot (for righties) on contact. Easy extra power, no hip turn required.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, weight transfer doesn't mean every use of the body. It means the ones that transfer weight. For example, try warming up your backhand with your arm alone, keeping your center of gravity static. Then continue the same movement, but add a slight shift of weight from your left foot to your right foot (for righties) on contact. Easy extra power, no hip turn required.

Most of my use of hips when playing backhand is in the backward and forward direction but it is more bowing and straightening. You can try that and decided whether it is weight transfer from left to right. I used to twist more.but I found it too slow for fast backhand rallying and harder to do when the ball came on your right hip/middle. And I found specific whipping of the wrist and a precise ball contact that reduced the risk of whiffing the ball to be the most important thing for fast rallying with consistency. I found a video of KJH teaching the technique recently and will post it if I get in front of a PC. But people who have seen the Liam Pitchford masterclass will be already familiar with it. There is some rotation when you unsheath a sword, but when you do a breaststroke, you can minimize rotation using both hands while getting the same back to front effect and this is currently how I practice it and how I teach it to more experienced players.

 

[dingyibvs]

The upper body also doesn't rotate that much. The FH loop hip rotation is completely different from the BH mechanism like what you said. Bh is achieved by bending the knees differently between legs.

A very simple experiment i used before to illustrate, If you keep both knees straight at first, and then bend your right knee only - this forces your right hip to go a bit forward and the left hip to go a bit backwards thus already achieving a small anticlockwise hip rotation. Vice versa is true too.

So from this simple experiment you can already see how a difference in knee bend angles between the 2 legs can produce hip rotation.

And this is the BH hip rotation mechanism that I'm referring to. Obviously the left leg can't be straight, but it is less bent compared to the right leg during the BH backswing. You can actually see the right knee come forward more during most pro players BH backswing.

Another point with waist usage, it is no longer needed too in the FH because it is way too slow (also injurious). In the modern gen TT (talking about Harimoto, LYJ, Lin Shidong, etc...) nobody really bends or twists at the waist anymore. You can see clearly that they keep it fixed and it turns as one whole unit, with the exception of maybe extreme scenarios. Not keeping the waist braced is the reason why a lot of older gen players have lower back injuries, and this was also what Li Sun mentioned in some videos.

But saying that there's no hip rotation could also lead people to think that they can just do everything with upper body, and imo while this is an important intermediate step (you need to figure out upper body before you add in lower body), it is also suboptimal because the lower body does add a lot of juice to the ball.

Very good, so we in fact are talking about the same thing, just using different terms. Personally, I don't like to describe that action as hip rotation. For one it's not technically correct. The hip is attached to the waist, and the waist is the "joint" with which the hip rotates. Saying rotate the hip and not the waist is like saying rotate the hand but not the wrist. The action you describe is created by differential flexion of the knee and hip joints, i.e. flex right knee > left knee, flex left hip > right hip.

Those 2 actions have to occur side by side. You can't flex one knee without either flexing the opposite knee or hip. You chose to understand it as flexing the right knee, which forces the left hip to flex (kick out). I chose to understand it as flexing the left hip (i.e. kick it out) which would force the right knee to flex. Potato, potahto, whichever one is easier for you to understand is fine. Case in point, I personally don't even think about the action of my right knee, and we arrived at the same form.

 

[blahness]

Very good, so we in fact are talking about the same thing, just using different terms. Personally, I don't like to describe that action as hip rotation. For one it's not technically correct. The hip is attached to the waist, and the waist is the "joint" with which the hip rotates. Saying rotate the hip and not the waist is like saying rotate the hand but not the wrist. The action you describe is created by differential flexion of the knee and hip joints, i.e. flex right knee > left knee, flex left hip > right hip.

Those 2 actions have to occur side by side. You can't flex one knee without either flexing the opposite knee or hip. You chose to understand it as flexing the right knee, which forces the left hip to flex (kick out). I chose to understand it as flexing the left hip (i.e. kick it out) which would force the right knee to flex. Potato, potahto, whichever one is easier for you to understand is fine. Case in point, I personally don't even think about the action of my right knee, and we arrived at the same form.

The problem with waist rotation as a term is that many ppl dont understand that the rotation is not coming from the waist (a soft joint which can only rotate maybe 10 degrees max) but at the hip area and knees. So they don't do the knee actions and just try to rotate at the waist which doesn't get them to where they want to be. Even in FH a lot of the rotation is enabled by the feet and hip action, not the waist. And you can imagine the confusion for ppl trying to learn!

 

[dingyibvs]

The problem with waist rotation as a term is that many ppl dont understand that the rotation is not coming from the waist (a soft joint which can only rotate maybe 10 degrees max) but at the hip area and knees. So they don't do the knee actions and just try to rotate at the waist which doesn't get them to where they want to be. Even in FH a lot of the rotation is enabled by the feet and hip action, not the waist. And you can imagine the confusion for ppl trying to learn!

Exactly, which is why I feel the term rotation itself is confusing. When people think rotation they naturally try to rotate their waist, as that's the joint that rotates the hip. While at each vertebrae you can only rotate a small amount, generally people can rotate about 90 degrees or so left and right when all the vertebra rotate, and they're pretty used to doing that, so that's what they try.

I think describing it as kicking the left hip out helps people realize that it's a different motion from waist rotation.

 

[Musaab]

I gotta say this is a fantastic conversation, alotta of ideas ! it kinda proves my point though: backhand is very subjective. Instead of working with a coach who is going to enforce his/her subjective backhand understading on me, I will rather try a robot+video combo first, that way I can actuallly try all the ideas mentionned here and beyond

 

[NextLevel]

I gotta say this is a fantastic conversation, alotta of ideas ! it kinda proves my point though: backhand is very subjective. Instead of working with a coach who is going to enforce his/her subjective backhand understading on me, I will rather try a robot+video combo first, that way I can actuallly try all the ideas mentionned here and beyond

A coach will take you through a thought process and give you real time feedback. A really good coach can also take what you naturally do and make it better rather than install a foreign approach that is entirely new to you if you already have something worth building on ( though a coach might decide to start from scratch). Good coaching is too underrated. One can spend months even years trying to figure out something entirely by oneself when a really good coach can give you a template you can work with after a few hours and which you can optimize with the practice of a few days. Especially if you record your coaching session.

 

[Musaab]

A coach will take you through a thought process and give you real time feedback. A really good coach can also take what you naturally do and make it better rather than install a foreign approach that is entirely new to you if you already have something worth building on ( though a coach might decide to start from scratch). Good coaching is too underrated. One can spend months even years trying to figure out something entirely by oneself when a really good coach can give you a template you can work with after a few hours and which you can optimize with the practice of a few days. Especially if you record your coaching session.

I agree, don't know how it is in other countries but in France and rightly so, the focus is on the kids, the evolution strategy. Most coaches don't even bother with adults, some good analytical coaches exist but it is kinda rare

 

[NextLevel]

I agree, don't know how it is in other countries but in France and rightly so, the focus is on the kids, the evolution strategy. Most coaches don't even bother with adults, some good analytical coaches exist but it is kinda rare

I hear you, sometimes if the opportunity exists to pay the right coach even if the coach is expensive, it is worth it. But I hear you 100%, some coaches don't really invest anything in teaching adults proper/better technique. They think it is a lost cause, though sometimes, adults can be hard to break off their bad habits.

 

[NextLevel]

Not really. There has been a lot of talk about things like weight transfer etc. I don't think about that stuff at all. I concentrate on how to hit the ball to make it go where I want it to go. Any weight transfer comes naturally. However, I have seen myself in videos. There is no deliberate hip rotation. The ball's speed drops by about half for every 5 meters of travel so if you are hitting BHs way back from the table then you might need to get your body into it to compensate for the air resistance.

Robots are good but take video from the side. You want to keep the paddle attitude constant during the time of impact. Even a 1 degree of wobble in the paddle makes a big difference as to where the ball will go. Another thing to do if using a robot is to hit balls while close to the table and then slowly step back to learn how you must adapt when playing away from the table. I see too many multiball videos where the student is moving side to side but not back. Do this for top spin and back spin balls. Back spin balls away from the table will require you to get your body into it.

In the end it is all about the force/impulse you apply to the ball and where and what direction the paddle is moving. Everything before or after doesn't really affect the trajectory of the ball.

The beauty of the internet is that people can make posts like this without ever having the responsibility to back up their posts with evidence they know how to hit the ball or have taught someone how to hit the ball. But this is not a special problem with just this poster, so I will just let it go. Let me go find that KJH video.

 

[IB66]

I gotta say this is a fantastic conversation, alotta of ideas ! it kinda proves my point though: backhand is very subjective. Instead of working with a coach who is going to enforce his/her subjective backhand understading on me, I will rather try a robot+video combo first, that way I can actuallly try all the ideas mentionned here and beyond

If you go down the route of trying every single BH tutorial out there, you will most likely end up dazed and confused!! Maybe it will work for you, maybe it won’t, my advice is still try and find a coach JUST 1 good one, who is willing to coach you.

To a certain a extent, repetition is key, maybe repetition of a few different nuances for close to the table, mid range and away from the table, but to keep changing things, will more likely end up leading to inconsistency. If you are going to use the tutorials choose 1, perfect that style BEFORE moving onto another.

I’ve seen this 1st handed when coach A says do this, and coach B says No do it this way, the player ends up with a mish mash stroke, it is then harder to get there stroke back to where it was originally, Tutorial A this, Tutorial B that will lead you down the same route as coach A coach B, then throw in self analysis of video, of course you’ll video yourself.