Long pips vs spaghetti-string tennis racket.

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Correct me if I'm wrong. Ayhika & Sreeja haven't won any but Liu Guoliang, Ni Xialian, Han Ying & some more pips-out players have won many top tournaments incl. WTT.

so how many of these "trouble maker" pip players are world champions?
how ever you want to bring them out, even the offensive SP players in history and today, they are still a minority, or a non issue to be honest.

Not many of them feature in the rankings/ratings today and history.
I doubt future too.

And the ones you named - they all trained full time at a young age. Doesn't that training help with the "wins"? or is it only the pips? While they at it from that young age, 100s or 1000 fold failed with the same pips and have appeared no where.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So you disagree that pips are less sensitive to spin and therefore are much better in serve receive especially against short serves?

what are you on about??
as an amateur, your answer would be correct I assume.
as an international pros, no LP/anti use will tell you the advantage is in service return.

You see any of the points won at service return??

inverted has a lot more advantage than LP/anti spin if we need to talk about it, especially against short serves.

Think about it, we talking world champions here, not you or TB

Sensitivity to spin is not even a problem or topic among the elites....this is an amateur vocab.

 

[blahness]

what are you on about??
as an amateur, your answer would be correct I assume.
as an international pros, no LP/anti use will tell you the advantage is in service return.

You see any of the points won at service return??

inverted has a lot more advantage than LP/anti spin if we need to talk about truth.
Especially against short serves.

Think about it, we talking world champions here, not you or TB

That is quite the controversial statement. Even a lot of the top pros are misreading serves all the time. Short serve receive is the no.1 problem for pros in general.

Chiquita is very strong, but if you read the spin wrong you will miss it, and theres plenty of chiquita mistakes. The room for error just ain't as much as LPs, where they can read the spin quite wrong and still land quite a good receive.

There's a reason why Ma Lin switched to LPs when he played against Sun Ting who also notoriously had one of the hardest to read hook serves, but quite a weak game after the serve.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That is quite the controversial statement. Even a lot of the top pros are misreading serves all the time. Short serve receive is the no.1 problem for pros in general.

Chiquita is very strong, but if you read the spin wrong you will miss it, and theres plenty of chiquita mistakes. The room for error just ain't as much as LPs, where they can read the spin quite wrong and still land quite a good receive.

There's a reason why Ma Lin switched to LPs when he played against Sun Ting who also notoriously had one of the hardest to read hook serves, but quite a weak game after the serve.

Haha
why is it controversial?
the fetish I see against lp/anti on TTD from "both sides" is alarming I must say.

misreading serves is no problem for LP users in your theory??
the words you typed here, the same is applicable for LP

I don't know why, people think having a LP, and then service return problem is gone
I doubt you see as much as LP action in person compared to me.
If the LP users can't read spin, and just use LP to return the ball due to "sensitivity or not", that player isn't going to get very far.
LP users needs to master the spin more than the inverted user to get far and that requires a lot more work in my books, and that is why, so little of them are out there today to be known.

and as i said, familiarity against them is the only advantage/disadvantage.
once you familiarize with them, things will only be easier from there as the opponent, and difficult for the LP user

 

[blahness]

Haha
why is it controversial?
the fetish I see against lp/anti on TTD from "both sides" is alarming I must say.

misreading serves is no problem for LP users in your theory??
the words you typed here, the same is applicable for LP

I don't know why, people think having a LP, and then service return problem is gone

Yes you could use a similar stroke with LP to deal with most balls regardless of spin. I tried LPs with my offhand too and receiving/attacking short serves was the easiest thing to do with LPs. I didn't have to be that precise in reading the spin as I would have needed compared to when I used inverted with my main hand. This is not fetish or whatever, it's simply reality.

Fang Yinchi also recently lost to Ba Yongbo (a LP specialist) and he was complaining that regardless of what he served, Ba Yongbo can simply return it with the exact same method. He was simply immune to serve spin variation by Fang (who is a damn good player who even beat some international players out there).

 

[blahness]

If you say that serve receive is harder with LPs that's really going way too far. LPs have weaknesses but serve receive just ain't one of them, sorry...

 

[Lowday20298]

OK, the real ban should have been sponged up rubber back in the late 50s. THAT is what began the technology that has plagued the sport. Hardbat contest were tactical and athletic and creative. Sponge came along and opened the door to all the types of madness we now face. Don't get me wrong - I love the counter looping top spinning rallies and all the variations of the game - makes it challenging. But let's not blame the recent tech for the challenges of that. The villain is sponged, boosted rubber, not long pips, anti, etc.

I also think the spaghetti racket was more akin to boosted inverted with the excessive spin it could produce, not long pips. Tennis decided the excessive spin was a detriment to the game, unlike table tennis that allowed the spin game to flourish.

If that happened then the game would have no identity. It would be just another tennis.

What's so great about table tennis is spin generation and the tactics made around it.

 

[Lowday20298]

If you say that serve receive is harder with LPs that's really going way too far. LPs have weaknesses but serve receive just ain't one of them, sorry...

The weakness in the serve of lp's is that they can't hold spin. Serve downspin and you get a float or an open up. You can attack it and get the upper hand. Tactics people.

 

[Kopp]

If you say that serve receive is harder with LPs that's really going way too far. LPs have weaknesses but serve receive just ain't one of them, sorry...

Agreed that returning serves can be easier with LP. I have friends in my club started with LP for this reason, I asked. It seems that they just block any serve and the ball safely drop to the other side. But I'm not sure for advanced level.

 

[Kopp]

The weakness in the serve of lp's is that they can't hold spin. Serve downspin and you get a float or an open up. You can attack it and get the upper hand. Tactics people.

💯

 

[blahness]

The weakness in the serve of lp's is that they can't hold spin. Serve downspin and you get a float or an open up. You can attack it and get the upper hand. Tactics people.

It appears that you only played against LP pushblockers and don't have experience against LP attackers.

I would like to see you try that against an quality attacking LP player. Underspin balls are all opportunity balls for LP players, it is a mistake to serve underspin to them, because your underspin = their topspin which they will use to land the shot. So you will already be on the defensive, and then if they're competent on their inverted side theyre gonna twiddle, and you're already in a very bad spot.

If you had said fast no spin that is indeed a valid tactic, but advanced LP players have ways to deal with it too.

 

[Kopp]

It appears that you only played against LP pushblockers and don't have experience against LP attackers.

I would like to see you try that against an quality attacking LP player. Underspin balls are all opportunity balls for LP players, it is a mistake to serve underspin to them, because your underspin = their topspin which they will use to land the shot. So you will already be on the defensive, and then if they're competent on their inverted side theyre gonna twiddle, and you're already in a very bad spot.

If you had said fast no spin that is indeed a valid tactic, but advanced LP players have ways to deal with it too.

Interesting! So how to deal with this? If you don't mind sharing.

 

[blahness]

Interesting! So how to deal with this? If you don't mind sharing.

LP attackers are usually very high level. Pure LP pushblockers are usually quite a bit lower level. So regardless of what you do, if they're higher level you will still lose.

But against that shot, you're in defence mode and you'll have to try to counter or angle block it or even better loop it back with interest. But as I mentioned, it's not as easy to land those at all because they have too much freedom in shot placements.

So basically you don't wanna give them these opportunities at all if possible. You want to be the one attacking and dictating the point, not the other way round. Pips are most vulnerable to long fast serves with variety with occasional short serve to the very wide FH to make it awkward af for them to use their pips. You can watch Sun Yingsha vs Ito Mima to see how Sun Yingsha pretty much destroyed Ito with long serves and rally dominance (there's a technique to this - basically you need to know how to BH loop off the bounce against no spin/underspin balls with open racket angles).

 

[Lowday20298]

It appears that you only played against LP pushblockers and don't have experience against LP attackers.

I would like to see you try that against an quality attacking LP player. Underspin balls are all opportunity balls for LP players, it is a mistake to serve underspin to them, because your underspin = their topspin which they will use to land the shot. So you will already be on the defensive, and then if they're competent on their inverted side theyre gonna twiddle, and you're already in a very bad spot.

If you had said fast no spin that is indeed a valid tactic, but advanced LP players have ways to deal with it too.

Out serves, deep topspins, and aiming to their forehand. I've met these players too, there's still a standard way to beat them.

Of course depending on the individual slight changes will need to be done.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes you could use a similar stroke with LP to deal with most balls regardless of spin. I tried LPs with my offhand too and receiving/attacking short serves was the easiest thing to do with LPs. I didn't have to be that precise in reading the spin as I would have needed compared to when I used inverted with my main hand. This is not fetish or whatever, it's simply reality.

Fang Yinchi also recently lost to Ba Yongbo (a LP specialist) and he was complaining that regardless of what he served, Ba Yongbo can simply return it with the exact same method. He was simply immune to serve spin variation by Fang (who is a damn good player who even beat some international players out there).

so why isn't all the LP users wining points on service return???

my first question you replied to was me talking about where are the LP world champions = none
now, my question to you is even more fun. Where are all these powerful LP users winning serve returns out there?

you know, even if you can give me a list, service return is just 1 tiny bit of the game for pros.
The balls will come back, unlike amateur circuit.
so no matter how much you want to try, you are still bringing in amateur talk into pro space.
The reality as you put it, is there is not much success out there for the past few decades at least (since you named LGL, so we can go back to 3 decades).
So where are all these LP users winning serve returns?

and btw you start off by "serve short return", and when I replied with facts, then you jump to "pros misreading spin" and now you bringing up some provincial player at best and "you" among all pros out there.
I have to say, you are jumping around in too many circles, it is tying and time wasting to follow you jumping around.

reality is, you can't give me a list of world champions or all the pros in the past 30 years that has an easy serve return game.
table tennis is a lot more advance than you think

you are going to have some random player catching SYS and any top elite on a bad day.
But have a 5 or 10 times, it is different.
Those random players in this thread - has not win anything out there, so that is why they are lowly ranked.
Today beat SYS, next 10 players at WR100 level, they could loose against to.

The biggest consistence success in past 30 years probably has been choppers in both genders, against the world top 10 and they sure aren't service return "advantage" as you put it.
I can't think of anyone to back your view point.

 

[Kopp]

.. Pips are most vulnerable to long fast serves with variety with occasional short serve to the very wide FH to make it awkward af for them to use their pips. ..

So you're suggesting long and fast serve to their FH (pips-in) side?

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Pips are most vulnerable to long fast serves with variety with occasional short serve to the very wide FH to make it awkward af for them to use their pips.

Wait till you meet elderly uncles with LP / SP combo on C-Pen. Oh! He can twiddle too.

 

[blahness]

so why isn't all the LP users wining points on service return???

my first question you replied to was me talking about where are the LP world champions = none
now, my question to you is even more fun. Where are all these powerful LP users winning serve returns out there?

you know, even if you can give me a list, service return is just 1 tiny bit of the game for pros.
The balls will come back, unlike amateur circuit.
so no matter how much you want to try, you are still bringing in amateur talk into pro space.
The reality as you put it, is there is not much success out there for the past few decades at least (since you named LGL, so we can go back to 3 decades).
So where are all these LP users winning serve returns?

and btw you start off by "serve short return", and when I replied with facts, then you jump to "pros misreading spin" and now you bringing up some provincial player at best and "you" among all pros out there.
I have to say, you are jumping around in too many circles, it is tying and time wasting to follow you jumping around.

reality is, you can't give me a list of world champions or all the pros in the past 30 years that has an easy serve return game.
table tennis is a lot more advance than you think

you are going to have some random player catching SYS and any top elite on a bad day.
But have a 5 or 10 times, it is different.
Those random players in this thread - has not win anything out there, so that is why they are lowly ranked.
Today beat SYS, next 10 players at WR100 level, they could loose against to.

The biggest consistence success in past 30 years probably has been choppers in both genders, against the world top 10 and they sure aren't service return "advantage" as you put it.
I can't think of anyone to back your view point.

I think you simply have an agenda rather than actually engaging in a thoughtful discussion. If pips didn't have an advantage in serve receive and are less susceptible to incoming spin variation no one would actually use it since there are real downsides to not being able to generate huge topspin.

 

[blahness]

So you're suggesting long and fast serve to their FH (pips-in) side?

No - if they're even remotely worth their salt, long serves to the FH will just get you destroyed. I was talking about short serves to the wide FH, not long. Fast serves to the pips side.

 

[blahness]

In fact, the hidden serve ban really harmed choppers imo (along with all the ball changes). I watched a few classic choppers and the way they won was:

1) they get loads of free points from their hidden serve + FH 3rd ball attack

2) their opponents don't get free points from hidden serves because the LP just ain't that spin sensitive and they can simply chop most balls back decently and go into a hopefully 50-50 rally instead of eating serves and getting 3rd balled to death.