Simon Gauzy was right or wrong in that point?

[Gtsnake]

If I understand you correctly, the image below represents what you're suggesting.

View attachment 29387

If that's the case, then what I'm saying is that the creation of a 'dead zone' would incentivise playing lots of half-long shots that would have their second bounce in the dead zone. This would make opening the attack very risky, incentivise more 'passive' play, and would meaningfully change the whole game.

I think dingyibvs (at post #50) is saying the same thing as me.

Are we misunderstanding your suggestion?

No, it's not a dead zone. A ball that hits on the line is considered in. Right? So if the ball hits anywhere on the horizontal surface is considered good with the extra area considered good. However if the ball hits an edge it would be outside of the line and considered out. Very easy to judge and you would never have to play an edge ball. You would never get any cheap points.

 

[Gtsnake]

Maybe thinner than 20mm then
Or just invest in technology in the highest level

I always thought edge balls are only considered in if it hits somewhere on the horizontal surface. Any vertical surface is considered out.

 

[dingyibvs]

No, it's not a dead zone. A ball that hits on the line is considered in. Right? So if the ball hits anywhere on the horizontal surface is considered good with the extra area considered good. However if the ball hits an edge it would be outside of the line and considered out. Very easy to judge and you would never have to play an edge ball. You would never get any cheap points.

No, there can still be edges. A half long service/push can have a 2nd bounce on the edge. It creates an additional awkward situation where the 2nd bounce is on the "dead zone". Is the ball still live at that point? If it is then it'd be a new shot in TT, reeturning a ball that double bounces.

 

[lodro]

I always thought edge balls are only considered in if it hits somewhere on the horizontal surface. Any vertical surface is considered out.

Absolutely. The problem here is that there was a disagreement whether it hit the horizontal or the vertical surface.

 

[Wrighty67]

No, there can still be edges. A half long service/push can have a 2nd bounce on the edge. It creates an additional awkward situation where the 2nd bounce is on the "dead zone". Is the ball still live at that point? If it is then it'd be a new shot in TT, reeturning a ball that double bounces.

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on the receiver in this circumstance, to determine if the ball is going to second bounce in the dead zone(including the edge) - and if so play the ball before that happens? If it second bounces then the point is lost just like it would be in the game now (if you misread the length of a ball and it bounces twice on the table then the point is lost)

 

[dingyibvs]

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on the receiver in this circumstance, to determine if the ball is going to second bounce in the dead zone(including the edge) - and if so play the ball before that happens? If it second bounces then the point is lost just like it would be in the game now (if you misread the length of a ball and it bounces twice on the table then the point is lost)

Basically the dead zone would be like the ground then, which would require a new rule. My point is that it would change the game more than just eliminating edge/side calls.

 

[Der_Echte]

I render my opinion as a certified umpire.

This is CLEARLY and EDGE BALL. It is not even close. Purely and edge ball. Ball was struck WELL within the left corner and there was no curvature bringing ball back to table. A very easy call.

EVEN IF... even if the umpire was unsure, the ball was struck well within endline and any doubt is going back to where ball was struck. Umpire would decide edge ball if it was unclear.

Some further insight...

If ball was struck outside the corner and did that, the umpire needs to be damn sure of the downward velocity and the resultant rebound of the ball to call it in or out... in the case where ball is struck outside corner and umpire is not sure it was an edge... then umpire will call ball OUT.

The video and the interpretation of how to decide an edge are very clear for this point. EDGE BALL for sure.

This ball had much downward velocity and struck edge and deflected sideways. if it was truly a case where ball hit the side... a ball with that much downward velocity would deflect way more down than in the vid. Clear Edgeball for sure in this point.

 

[Lazer]

There are always going to be ambiguities because we have human umpires, that is fine as well as the rules.
Leave them alone. This doesn't happen often and as player You should have enough integrity to swallow it.

Let it stay the way it is, leave it simple and don't clutter the game with electronic devices.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There are always going to be ambiguities because we have human umpires, that is fine as well as the rules.
Leave them alone. This doesn't happen often and as player You should have enough integrity to swallow it.

Let it stay the way it is, leave it simple and don't clutter the game with electronic devices.

Cheers
L-zr

Its fine to use electronic devices every where on the table and playing area
But dont use technology for critical calls….
The umpires need to show eye test results or have their eyes certified regularly

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I always thought edge balls are only considered in if it hits somewhere on the horizontal surface. Any vertical surface is considered out.

Its a thin fine line and these umpires are apparently trained (by who or certified by who I don’t know) to see everything

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

No, there can still be edges. A half long service/push can have a 2nd bounce on the edge. It creates an additional awkward situation where the 2nd bounce is on the "dead zone". Is the ball still live at that point? If it is then it'd be a new shot in TT, reeturning a ball that double bounces.

I agree this won’t work in the double bounce case

It will be cheaper to just use technology than to replace all the millions of tables in the world

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on the receiver in this circumstance, to determine if the ball is going to second bounce in the dead zone(including the edge) - and if so play the ball before that happens? If it second bounces then the point is lost just like it would be in the game now (if you misread the length of a ball and it bounces twice on the table then the point is lost)

The second bounce on the table still… impossible to play without hitting the table
I can train to make sure i land that second bounce lands in that 20mm space
It is very possible

 

[Lazer]

Its fine to use electronic devices every where on the table and playing area
But dont use technology for critical calls….
The umpires need to show eye test results or have their eyes certified regularly

Disagree, that destroys the beauty of the game, I prefer it to be simple and a little more imperfect... There is no way all disagreements can be resolved anyway.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Manto76]

No, it's not a dead zone. A ball that hits on the line is considered in. Right? So if the ball hits anywhere on the horizontal surface is considered good with the extra area considered good. However if the ball hits an edge it would be outside of the line and considered out. Very easy to judge and you would never have to play an edge ball. You would never get any cheap points.

Okay, I misunderstood your suggestion, thanks for explaining.

I see how what you're suggesting might help decide between 'edge' and 'side' contact on some occasions.

IMO, it's not a viable solution as (and others have already said the same) it potentially helps make a decision with respect to a situation that occurs very infrequently (i.e. when an umpire is unsure whether a contact was 'side' or 'edge'), but in doing so it creates a new problem that will happen very frequently (i.e. the second bounce problem).

That second bounce issue would change the game meaningfully. It would prejudice FH dominant players, and reward BH dominant players.

The result could be to move all of team China down the rankings, and we'd have a new Top 3 of Lin Yun-Yu, Darko Jorgic, and Hugo Calderano.

Actually, come to think of it, great idea!

 

[Wrighty67]

The second bounce on the table still… impossible to play without hitting the table
I can train to make sure i land that second bounce lands in that 20mm space
It is very possible

Yes - but as the receiver it's incumbent on me to judge if the ball will bounce a second time on the table (anywhere - dead zone or not because if it bounces on the table the ball is good) and if I judge that it will, then I must take it earlier rather than wait. It is then the same as having to judge if a ball is going half long or not with current tables - if I misjudge it as half long and then it isn't, the ball bounces twice and I lose the point.

 

[Wrighty67]

Basically the dead zone would be like the ground then, which would require a new rule. My point is that it would change the game more than just eliminating edge/side calls.

My understanding is that the dead zone would be like any other area of the table except the edge - if it bounces twice on the table you lose the point, so make sure you judge that second bounce likelihood and play accordingly with a push or flick (over the table shot) - because if you leave it and it second bounces in the dead zone, you have lost the point.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes - but as the receiver it's incumbent on me to judge if the ball will bounce a second time on the table (anywhere - dead zone or not because if it bounces on the table the ball is good) and if I judge that it will, then I must take it earlier rather than wait. It is then the same as having to judge if a ball is going half long or not with current tables - if I misjudge it as half long and then it isn't, the ball bounces twice and I lose the point.

that 20mm will cause me to hit the table, where before it won't
I am one of those that can drive over the table on second bounce shots.
dead zone, to be honest, doesn't make much sense, to just remove an "edge issue"
going to spend thousands fold of the price to remake tables... where technology is cheaper

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Disagree, that destroys the beauty of the game, I prefer it to be simple and a little more imperfect... There is no way all disagreements can be resolved anyway.

Cheers
L-zr

well, you should be enjoying the mediocrity and all the mistakes happening.
I hope you are very happy

 

[latej]

that 20mm will cause me to hit the table, where before it won't

Absolutely! So many balls would not be attack-able anymore.

I'm putting that idea to my personal "hatelist" ;-)

 

[Manto76]

that 20mm will cause me to hit the table, where before it won't

Agreed. For me the price of those 20mm will be a broken thumb!