Why it is hard for umpires to call hidden serves

[kindof99]

During the world cup, many players were called for illegal serves, but mainly for tossing not vertically or inside the table. I did not see any called due to hidden serves.

I think there are several reasons for this.
1. The umpire can't see whether it is hidden serve well in his/her location and he/she does not want to be wrong.
2. The umpire needs to keep sharp eyes all the time to catch hidden serves.
3. Calling an illegal serve might cause complains from the servers/coaches during the play.

Overall, without eagle eye system, hidden serves will not be called that much and most players will learn to use it more often.

 

[backspacer]

They are really badly positioned. I asked a national umpire and that was his answer when I asked him that question. You would need a service judge(s) like in badminton. That's his/her only job, but it's also way easier to tell and the judge has a device for it.

 

[lodro]

only specially dedicated serve umpires ( two ) or cameras posted behind the receiver can see if the serves are hidden.
And this is probably the reason why it will never happen... 😁

 

[_ak]

And a normal serve for the same handed players may be hidden for lefty-righty opponents.

 

[kapahoo]

The rules should be changed.
Either allow it or do something like "the whole body needs to be behind the ball during the serve"

 

[JustANoob]

The rules should be changed.
Either allow it or do something like "the whole body needs to be behind the ball during the serve"

"whole body and head", I know the head is part of the body but it needs to be specifically mentioned for some big heads.

 

[backspacer]

The rules should be changed.
Either allow it or do something like "the whole body needs to be behind the ball during the serve"

There is no need. The ball needs to be visible all the time per rules. The problem is that umpires don't enforce them and at the same time they are not able to judge serves accurately. It also falls unto players to complain when opponents don't serve properly, but most don't. You also run into the issue that umpires don't give a shit, don't listen to complaints and let this shit keep going. I remember a match from last year when a German national youth player complained about the clearly hidden serves of the Singaporean opponent and the umpire outright ignored the complaints even though the German player was desperate with his complaints. Sometimes I think umpires on these WTT events don't even speak proper English because I have never heard them use a full sentence. It's day and night when you compare them with umpires from tennis or badminton.

 

[blahness]

There is no need. The ball needs to be visible all the time per rules. The problem is that umpires don't enforce them and at the same time they are not able to judge serves accurately. It also falls unto players to complain when opponents don't serve properly, but most don't. You also run into the issue that umpires don't give a shit, don't listen to complaints and let this shit keep going. I remember a match from last year when a German national youth player complained about the clearly hidden serves of the Singaporean opponent and the umpire outright ignored the complaints even though the German player was desperate with his complaints. Sometimes I think umpires on these WTT events don't even speak proper English because I have never heard them use a full sentence. It's day and night when you compare them with umpires from tennis or badminton.

Yes, it is a simple af rule. The ball must be visible at all times (not just contact!!) from the perspective of both net posts.

It's just never enforced properly.

 

[blahness]

Hawkeye with a challenge system is most probably the right way to go. The tech is already there.

 

[NextLevel]

There is no need. The ball needs to be visible all the time per rules. The problem is that umpires don't enforce them and at the same time they are not able to judge serves accurately. It also falls unto players to complain when opponents don't serve properly, but most don't. You also run into the issue that umpires don't give a shit, don't listen to complaints and let this shit keep going. I remember a match from last year when a German national youth player complained about the clearly hidden serves of the Singaporean opponent and the umpire outright ignored the complaints even though the German player was desperate with his complaints. Sometimes I think umpires on these WTT events don't even speak proper English because I have never heard them use a full sentence. It's day and night when you compare them with umpires from tennis or badminton.

Tennis umpires can make over $1K per match. If something even close to that was often possible in TT, a lot would change immediately.

 

[backspacer]

Tennis umpires can make over $1K per match. If something even close to that was often possible in TT, a lot would change immediately.

I know they don't make much money, but it takes years to become an umpire for the international circuit and it's not easy. Why bother if you aren't invested?

 

[NextLevel]

I know they don't make much money, but it takes years to become an umpire for the international circuit and it's not easy. Why bother if you aren't invested?

Definitely many are invested, but compensation often speaks to the quality of individuals you can get to show up, sometimes on short notice. Many invested people are retirees, which may not be quite what you want/need for professional umpiring at a world class level in a competitive sport.

Some of it is definitely the players being resistant to changing the culture of the sport (dodgy serving is not something players are clearly invested in moving away from).

 

[igorponger]

Non expert talks of yours. Umpire is empowered to declare NOT CLEARLY LEGAL SERVE, according to rule 2.6-6.1


"NOT CLEARLY LEGAL".
Так должен сказать судья, когда штрафует подачу на грани фола.

СОМНИТЕЛЬНАЯ ПОДАЧА.

Если кто не знает, судья имеет право штрафануть любую сомнительную подачу. Например, подброс 18--20 см практически нельзя отличить от подброса 16 см. Это суть "сомнительная подача" и есть такие смелые и добросоаестные судьи кто сразу банит такую подачу без разговоров.

Спортсмены всегда обижаютца и возмущаютца когда судья штрафует сомнительную подачу, а нафик ты подаёшь на грани фола? Сам виноват, читай правила 2.6.6.1


ПРЯМАЯ ЦИТАТА. ITTF RULES.
2.6.6 It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect.
2.6.6.1 If either the umpire or the assistant umpire is not sure about the legality of a service he or she may, on the first occasion in a match, interrupt play and warn the server; but any subsequent service by that player or his or her doubles partner which is not clearly legal shall be considered incorrect.

 

[igorponger]

Above anything, a good umpire should have guts a lot

 

[Der_Echte]

@kindof99 ... it is not terribly difficult to call illegal serves or borderline serves. The laws of TT are clear, if the server did not convince the umpire it was a legal serve, then it is illegal.

Problem is no one has courage to call these consistently.

Problem is ITTF umpires are basically volunteer workers. They do not make real money or salary or pay... they might get travel to event and room/board... some lucky get small stipend...

... but the pay is not really pay. ITTF cannot get enough money for a pro tourney to proerly pay hte pros either.

So we have volunteer workforce not getting paid pro money or any money, but are expected to do pro work.

Not gunna happen. No one in the umpire workforce gunna put up with all the complaining nonsense from players, fans, coaches and even ITTF if they have courage to call a fault.

This problem will exist until there is real money in the sport and the sport can hire real pro umpires.

 

[dingyibvs]

What TT needs is marketing. With good marketing it will generate fan interest and thus money, which would in turn fix a lot of problems.

Stuff like hidden serves are frankly not big issues. You see all sorts of judgment calls in the NBA all the time, many times obviously biased toward the superstars, and it doesn't really hurt the sport. MLB has the technology to make 100% accurate calls on pitches, and even displays them for TV viewers to see, yet still relies on umpires to make the call and they often get it wrong. Again, not an issue for the sport.

TT needs marketing. There's no one who hadn't watched pro TT before who wouldn't be impressed by what they can do when they first see it. TT needs to turn them into fans. There needs to be promotions by celebrities, there needs to be storylines, and there needs to be fan engagement. Someone with vision needs to invest in these things which won't generate an immediate return, but will in the long run.

 

[kapahoo]

There is no need. The ball needs to be visible all the time per rules. The problem is that umpires don't enforce them and at the same time they are not able to judge serves accurately. It also falls unto players to complain when opponents don't serve properly, but most don't. You also run into the issue that umpires don't give a shit, don't listen to complaints and let this shit keep going. I remember a match from last year when a German national youth player complained about the clearly hidden serves of the Singaporean opponent and the umpire outright ignored the complaints even though the German player was desperate with his complaints. Sometimes I think umpires on these WTT events don't even speak proper English because I have never heard them use a full sentence. It's day and night when you compare them with umpires from tennis or badminton.

But only like 0.3% of all table tennis matches have more than one umpire. It is impossible for a single umpire to see the ball when the most common way of serving in table tennis is done with the back against the umpire.
Also, I do not think that we really want a sort of "whining culture". Better to have rules that can be applied to all games and are easily enforced.

 

[Amayzde]

I think they need to redefine what an illegal serve is.

If they were to really call illegal serves according to the current rules, then all pendelum, reverse pendulum, hook and shovel serves are illegal by default. Since the proper technique that most pro’s use, requires you to lean into the ball when contacting. This increases the spin and control of placement when serving.

But this technique also makes the ball disappear behind the face of the serving player. Even on Timo Boll his serves the ball disappears behind his nose and chin right before he hits the ball:

 

[Dominikk85]

I think ittf doesn't want strict enforcement, they only want to sanction the most extreme cases.

For example ittf doesn't require a completely vertical toss but I think the rule says "an angle of no more than 30 degrees.

No ump has a protractor at hand during games.

Ittf likely doesn't want controversy here, they occasionally make an example of someone who goes too far but usually they just let them play.

 

[NextLevel]

I think they need to redefine what an illegal serve is.

If they were to really call illegal serves according to the current rules, then all pendelum, reverse pendulum, hook and shovel serves are illegal by default. Since the proper technique that most pro’s use, requires you to lean into the ball when contacting. This increases the spin and control of placement when serving.

But this technique also makes the ball disappear behind the face of the serving player. Even on Timo Boll his serves the ball disappears behind his nose and chin right before he hits the ball:
View attachment 29449

This is what I mean when I say players don't really want to change the culture. They can fix some of this by actually making some of these things illegal and adjusting their body orientation a bit. However history and tradition and refusing to retain their serves are still king