World Cup 2024

[Tony's Table Tennis]

so Z's last post and previous post has a 14 mins period in between and includes 6 links.
that's not bad

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I saw 2014 and stopped skimming right there.

careful you will be on the ignore list too

it really amazes me, how one can remember posts from 10 years ago and then goes and search and repost it.
I'm sure I told Z in one of the forums that, if he uses what he does on forums, in the work place, he could actually do quite well in the work place. So, I am also curious what he does for a living.

10 years ago, I thought he was just a teenager with so much time on his hands, because he was literately having pointless arguments with many people, and his avg time and word count on posts, was thesis level in terms of keystrokes.

 

[zeio]

There's been matches where Chinese guys played outside China, and if not for the fangirls, nobody cheered for the Chinese team at all.
There's this awful stench from your comments that allude to rest of the world being "normal" and the Chinese being "weird", and as someone who has been to a few places, most people are the same, and have similar desires, respond to similar incentives.

As usual, good criticism is marred by jarring thinly veiled bile that one wonders what your priorities are.

Before I forget.

Just dug up a post I made back in 2018 on the T2 and ITTF joining forces. WTT has at least gotten the audience part right. Folks (likely non-paying) have long complained about empty stadiums. Now they complain about noisy Chinese fangirls (whales). What next?

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/t2-and-ittf-join-forces.16871/#post-217628

That is the kind of audience the ITTF want to capture. People who don't play but may otherwise be interested in watching or following. Those girls remind me of how I got drawn to table tennis - Olympics coverage on TV. The school also happened to have two concrete tables. I dived right in with a shakehand hardbat in penhold grip. Got trashed by the inverted-yielding tyrants. Couldn't be noober, but I persevered. Didn't even know they were called hardbat and inverted until much later, much less about shakehand and penhold. There is this "nerdy" aura around table tennis that puts it in a bad light in mainstream media. T2APAC is a commendable initiative to introduce the laymen to the competitive nature of table tennis. They may not play it in the end, but the least you could hope for is get them to follow the sport.

 

[NextLevel]

You're telling me. Is this really the level of reasoning we are using here?

Ishida even compared Hayata's clumsiness to Ito's inspiration. After Zennihon Takkyu 2024, Ishida told the media that Hayata's rapid growth in this cycle is due to her improvement in putting things into words. Compare that with Oh Kwanghun's comments about Ito and Hirano back in 5/2017.

女子卓球の選考レースは独走状態…東京五輪で“補欠だった”早田ひな（22歳）はいかに覚醒したのか？ コーチが明かす「不器用だけど我慢強い」素顔
https://number.bunshun.jp/articles/-/857807?page=2


【卓球】早田ひな　石田コーチが明かす急成長の要因…プレー以外で向上した〝能力〟とは
https://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/290396


平野美宇はなぜ強くなったのか―前・女子ジュニア日本代表監督の呉光憲が語る「平野世代」の強さの秘密
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/expert/articles/83b584a67eeba0e4526259f9523172735f3e4633
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-race-to-tokyo-2020-singles.20935/post-297203
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/return-of-international-tt-matches.23956/post-328638

Ito Mima is a “genius” and Hirano Miu is a “hard worker”

Oh (Kwanghun), who was appointed as the coach of Japan's junior national team in 4/2013, witnessed the new talents firsthand. Born in 2000 and being classmates, they are Hirano Miu, Ito Mima, and Hayata Hina, who were all first year middle school students at the time.

"They certainly had talent. Their abilities were perfect. I felt that there was something special in the relationship between (Ito) Mima and (Hirano) Miu in particular."

With that in mind, Oh begins to talk about the strengths of the two.

“Mima is a player with high potential and the ability to compose systems in her head and read what kind of system the opponent will use. In addition, she is able to take the initiative with net play and receiving. On the other hand, Miu has excellent physical strength and stamina to withstand even close battles. Mima is the genius type, and Miu is the hard-worker type."

That's the problem with comparing people at the highest level of an activity - even people that are far ahead of the rest of us can be made to look average by comparing them exclusively to people at that end of the bell curve, while forgetting that compared to the average joe in their sport, they may still be at or above the 99.9th percentile. Anyone who thinks Mima doesn't work hard or that Miu is stupid is reading it with their inexperience dealing with really talented people being compared to each other. Everything is level relative.

I often make the joke when criticizing Togami and Calderano that they lack guile. Do I literally mean that there is zero deception in their game? Or that relative to their level, they rely too much on ball quality and not enough on trying to make the opponent play worse? Even if I am ignorant, it is all relative, it is not an absolute statement. And anyone pushing the idea that Hayata is clumsy as an absolute statement should go defeat her with all her glorious clumsiness!

 

[zeio]

Although Mima is no longer at the top of the JNT, she's still good enough to beat Miu Hirano at the 2024 Singapore Smash and Bernie Szocs at the 2024 World Team Championship. Whether she decides to retire or not is up to her. I see no problem one way or the other. Her place in history is firmly cemented.

Would've been nice of you to mention Ito's fate at World Cup 2024. Why the arguments against Hirano when she lost to non-CNT players but nothing for Ito now? You're just living in the past like Ito.

 

[NextLevel]

ML clearly the statistical GOAT career. But peak level GOAT is arguable. Maybe Waldner for the old ball but he's got serious competition. If he maintains his level this year and wins gold, I think there's a reasonable argument that nobody's played as well with the new ball as WCQ. Seems like the level is improving each year, so the current best might really be the best ever.

Waldner doesn't have that much competition unless we are focused only on the top of Grand Slams. It is easy to underestimate Waldner when you don't take into account *all* the medals that were not gold.

Olympic Singles: 1992 Gold, 2000 Silver (2004 4th place)
WTTC Singles: 1987 Silver, 1989 Gold, 1991 Silver, 1993 Bronze, 1997 Gold, 1999 Bronze

Only KLH (Olympics 1996 Silver, 2000 Gold), WTTC Singles (1995 Gold, 1997 Bronze, 2001 Silver, 2003 Bronze) , WLQ and Ma Long are serious competitors for that level of medaling and Longevity.

 

[NextLevel]

Would've been nice of you to mention Ito's fate at World Cup 2024. Why the arguments against Hirano when she lost to non-CNT players but nothing for Ito now? You're just living in the past like Ito.

No, he is not, he is holding Hirano to the standard that zeio's famous Tieba users have set for her.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Would've been nice of you to mention Ito's fate at World Cup 2024. Why the arguments against Hirano when she lost to non-CNT players but nothing for Ito now? You're just living in the past like Ito.

Because the context of what I was saying was in regards to Hirano's ranking. She wouldn't be in the predicament that she is in now of trying to get her ranking up before the Olympics if she had performed better especially vs. non CNT. You know I'm a big supporter of Hirano as well, but I can't overlook that she had a let down in some of her international matches.

I don't know what you mean by living in the past when I just stated Ito is no longer at the top of the JNT. Yes, she's losing more often. Everyone can see that. For sentimental reasons, I would have liked for her to be able to play like a top JNT player, but father time is undefeated. Life goes on.

 

[zeio]

That's the problem with comparing people at the highest level of an activity - even people that are far ahead of the rest of us can be made to look average by comparing them exclusively to people at that end of the bell curve, while forgetting that compared to the average joe in their sport, they may still be at or above the 99.9th percentile. Anyone who thinks Mima doesn't work hard or that Miu is stupid is reading it with their inexperience dealing with really talented people being compared to each other. Everything is level relative.

I often make the joke when criticizing Togami and Calderano that they lack guile. Do I literally mean that there is zero deception in their game? Or that relative to their level, they rely too much on ball quality and not enough on trying to make the opponent play worse? Even if I am ignorant, it is all relative, it is not an absolute statement. And anyone pushing the idea that Hayata is clumsy as an absolute statement should go defeat her with all her glorious clumsiness!

Now we're talking in absolute or relative terms? That made me chuckle.

The crux is you folks have a problem with my criticisms that are based on facts that are widely accepted in China and Japan. Have I had a problem with yours about Togami and Calderano? To be honest, I haven't had the chance to come by one. Take it or leave it. Nothing else matters.

XX has recently talked about the common traits of South Korean players that I've mentioned years ago. I've been lumping all of them together, except for LJH who is an outlier (11/26/2021 at 1:31am), and guess what the KNT coaches said about his style at WTTC 2024 after it cost them the semifinal place? They don't make a distinction between absolute or relative terms, they literally blasted him for his weak FH and footwork. Like CTTA, KTTA doesn't give a shit about the player's feelings. Get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat.

 

[NextLevel]

Now we're talking in absolute or relative terms? That made me chuckle.

The crux is you folks have a problem with my criticisms that are based on facts that are widely accepted in China and Japan. Have I had a problem with yours about Togami and Calderano? To be honest, I haven't had the chance to come by one. Take it or leave it. Nothing else matters.

XX has recently talked about the common traits of South Korean players that I've mentioned years ago. I've been lumping all of them together, except for LJH who is an outlier, and guess what the KNT coaches said about his style at WTTC 2024 after it cost them the semifinal place? They don't make a distinction between absolute or relative terms, they literally blasted him for his weak FH and footwork. Like CTTA, KTTA doesn't give a shit about the player's feelings. Get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat.

Wait, so based on facts widely accepted in China and Japan, who has played better the past 4 years, Hirano or Hayata?

Based on facts widely accepted in China and Japan list all the players that are supposed to retire.

Maybe facts has a different definition on China and Japan from the Western world. In the West, even popular opinions are still opinions and we can call into question whether Tieba users cited by zeio truly reflect popular opinion.

 

[zeio]

Wait, so based on facts widely accepted in China and Japan, who has played better the past 4 years, Hirano or Hayata?

Based on facts widely accepted in China and Japan list all the players that are supposed to retire.

Just like I've posted all these Tieba comments in vain, they don't care about "who has played better". I mean, Hayata almost lost to the overrated SYB and where is the criticism? Rather, it's "who poses more threat", and you know the answer.

Keep in mind Li Sun said at ATTC 2017 that they deemed Hayata as having the most potential. To this day, Hayata still has the lowest numbers of wins against core CNT players. Hirano has 3 wins just like Hayata in the Paris 2024 cycle (way more if counting all CNT players) and has done what Hayata has yet to do - beat SYS. Counter that.

Stop wasting my time if you have nothing to offer.

 

[NextLevel]

Just like I've posted all these Tieba comments in vain, they don't care about "who has played better". I mean, Hayata almost lost to the overrated SYB and where is the criticism? Rather, it's "who poses more threat", and you know the answer.

Keep in mind Li Sun said at ATTC 2017 that they deemed Hayata as having the most potential. To this day, Hayata still has the lowest numbers of wins against core CNT players. Hirano has 3 wins just like Hayata in the Paris 2024 cycle (way more if counting all CNT players) and has done what Hayata has yet to do - beat SYS. Counter that.

Stop wasting my time if you have nothing to offer.

I made my point that opinion is not fact. If we can't even agree on the dictionary definitions of what facts are, then there is no need to discuss. I mean you have a right to your opinions but not a right to your facts. And there are no facts that show that Hayata has less potential than Hirano or has played better than Hirano over the last 4 years. That is completely your opinion and if you want to make it a fact because you are zeio (or as Google translate calls it, 'god'), that is your prerogative. But stop calling them facts based on the common use of the word in the English language.

My counter is that beating China is not the only thing that matters and that in addition to having better results, titles accolades etc over the last 4 years, Hayata has just played better. When Miu Hirano beats Sun Yingsha in a match at the Olympics or beats a CNT player to win a world championship medal, we can revisit. She did it so long ago that most of thr players she did it against are retired and the one that didn't, she couldn't beat her just yesterday. That shows growth right?

Hayata, by playing better and playing more CNT opponents, gets punished for having a worse record. But she has had the best results of her team members and her results are part of the reason that her teammates are inspired to beat China. When Hirano stays in the top 10 and consistently challenges for tour titles again and wins over everyone else and China wr can discuss. Shin Yubin has a better record vs Hirano than vs Hayata. So who is overrated again?

We can agree that this is a mutual waste of time - someone choosing their own facts and saying that other facts are not relevant.

 

[passifid]

ML clearly the statistical GOAT career. But peak level GOAT is arguable. Maybe Waldner for the old ball but he's got serious competition. If he maintains his level this year and wins gold, I think there's a reasonable argument that nobody's played as well with the new ball as WCQ. Seems like the level is improving each year, so the current best might really be the best ever.

I honestly agree there are a LOT of people you could argue for, but I just don't think you can discredit ML using H2H statistics is sensible as that is honestly his main thing.

Also a lot of people forget about in peak 1v1 the nightmare that was Guo YueHua who was a dominant force for a while

 

[turbozed]

That is completely your opinion and if you want to make it a fact because you are zeio (or as Google translate calls it, 'god'), that is your prerogative.

Holy shit, zeio actually picked a username that means 'god'?

His behavior suddenly makes a lot more sense to me now

 

[blahness]

FZD looks down old without much fighting spirit, maybe something personal just happened , like a girl friend?

Very weird match. I watched the 5th set and FZD appeared to be cruising with a 8-1 lead and somehow made like 1001 errors with his FH to then lose the set. This is not typical FZD and it seemed like he didn't even want to play on?! The FH loops he made were weak af and placed directly to Lin Gaoyuan's very strong BH which of course lost him the point.

If it were ZJK playing he would have blasted those FHs down the line, injury or not.

 

[NextLevel]

I honestly agree there are a LOT of people you could argue for, but I just don't think you can discredit ML using H2H statistics is sensible as that is honestly his main thing.

Also a lot of people forget about in peak 1v1 the nightmare that was Guo YueHua who was a dominant force for a while

Definitely, Guo YueHua stands in a special class. But arguably, it was before the modern developments of the backhand, it would be interesting to have seen him play in era of evolved backhand technique.

 

[quanghuysk]

Very weird match. I watched the 5th set and FZD appeared to be cruising with a 8-1 lead and somehow made like 1001 errors with his FH to then lose the set. This is not typical FZD and it seemed like he didn't even want to play on?! The FH loops he made were weak af and placed directly to Lin Gaoyuan's very strong BH which of course lost him the point.

If it were ZJK playing he would have blasted those FHs down the line, injury or not.

He had issues with his fingers and hand, maybe replayed too much Taylor's latest album

 

[kakapo23]

Does someone know what is the CNT race for Paris 2024 current (just before this world cup) point ranking (male and female) ?

 

[Oliverpool]

Not forgetting LGY was somehow able to stay at the table while FZD was being pushed back. If he switch “poorly” or weakly, he would probably be counterloop to his backhand and would not be able to recovery. Also a lefty backhand would spin such that a righty forehand return would likely go to the middle Or the lefty backhand side

 

[Oliverpool]

I do also feel that FZD the year before has much more power/threat on both his forehand and backhand shots somehow compared to the FZD in the last 6-9 months