really struggling with long pips (LP) low-med spin

[chimyshark]

There's a LP player at my club who I just can't beat. For the past 3 years I've struggled, and gotten close. I've gotten maybe 4 matches to the decider and 1 win in 3 years, and we've played how many, 50+ matches? His rating is USATT 1560 and mine is 1450. I beat 1500 players all the time that play inverted rubber on both sides as most do, but this LP is just killing me. I know what kind of spin I get, topspin or backspin, but what I can't adjust to and never seem to be able to do is the regarding the amount of spin. It's less than the spin I get from people playing inverted rubber and my shots always pop up or go over the end of the table.

For example, I know I get backspin back to me and I push, it pops up. If I loop, it goes over the table. The backspin is less rpm than if it came from an inverted player so I can't push or loop it successfully. If I know I get topspin back, I attack and it goes into the net because the topspin is less rpm. I just can't seem to get this less rpm down. I only get to play him once a week so I really can't get a handle on his play. I get really frustrated because when I play a player using inverted rubber, I can fire off all my shots without even thinking, I have all the racket angles down and just do them when the time comes because the spin is always roughly the same high rpm, whether back or top spin. But when it's less rpm, I can't handle it. This is really killing my morale, makes me feel like I haven't improved at all. I really need help dealing with lower rpm. Anyone have any tips?

 

[Zeen]

you could always play empty into the pips, then you know what to expect.
Or you develop a slow spinny loop that can be played safely in the exact same way against empty ball or backspin.

 

[chimyshark]

you could always play empty into the pips, then you know what to expect.
Or you develop a slow spinny loop that can be played safely in the exact same way against empty ball or backspin.

It's not the guessing that I struggle with, I know what spin will come back, but it comes back at lower rpm than I'm used to. Even my friend says every time I try to attack his back spin from the pips, "there's not as much spin on it as you think there is." Although I think you're right about doing more slow spinny loop because that will almost always hit the table.

 

[Zeen]

yes, looping low-spin balls is kind of a seperate technique. you could guide the ball forward while accelerating to play a low-spin loop (instead of having a hard impact, that you should avoid because results in error), or you can play the ball at the side of your body with underarm and wrist snap upwards, which is a very safe loop.

You can also look at tutorials how to loop half long balls that just exit the table, because the technique is similar.
Good luck!

 

[chimyshark]

yes, looping low-spin balls is kind of a seperate technique. you could guide the ball forward while accelerating to play a low-spin loop (instead of having a hard impact, that you should avoid because results in error), or you can play the ball at the side of your body with underarm and wrist snap upwards, which is a very safe loop.

You can also look at tutorials how to loop half long balls that just exit the table, because the technique is similar.
Good luck!

Yeah I think I just need to grind and learn these separate techniques. I'm going to borrow a LP racket and have someone push block to me for the next few weeks. I just want to attack these pips and send them home.
I'll consider the low-spin loop too. In fact I'm watching a Pechpong vid right now against pimples and anti-spin and he suggested looping with less spin.

 

[brokenball]

yes, looping low-spin balls is kind of a seperate technique. you could guide the ball forward while accelerating to play a low-spin loop (instead of having a hard impact, that you should avoid because results in error), or you can play the ball at the side of your body with underarm and wrist snap upwards, which is a very safe loop.

You can also look at tutorials how to loop half long balls that just exit the table, because the technique is similar.
Good luck!

Are low spin balls a loop when they drop mostly due to gravity instead of the Magus effect?

 

[NextLevel]

There's a LP player at my club who I just can't beat. For the past 3 years I've struggled, and gotten close. I've gotten maybe 4 matches to the decider and 1 win in 3 years, and we've played how many, 50+ matches? His rating is USATT 1560 and mine is 1450. I beat 1500 players all the time that play inverted rubber on both sides as most do, but this LP is just killing me. I know what kind of spin I get, topspin or backspin, but what I can't adjust to and never seem to be able to do is the regarding the amount of spin. It's less than the spin I get from people playing inverted rubber and my shots always pop up or go over the end of the table.

For example, I know I get backspin back to me and I push, it pops up. If I loop, it goes over the table. The backspin is less rpm than if it came from an inverted player so I can't push or loop it successfully. If I know I get topspin back, I attack and it goes into the net because the topspin is less rpm. I just can't seem to get this less rpm down. I only get to play him once a week so I really can't get a handle on his play. I get really frustrated because when I play a player using inverted rubber, I can fire off all my shots without even thinking, I have all the racket angles down and just do them when the time comes because the spin is always roughly the same high rpm, whether back or top spin. But when it's less rpm, I can't handle it. This is really killing my morale, makes me feel like I haven't improved at all. I really need help dealing with lower rpm. Anyone have any tips?

Usually, failing to beat a long pips player around your level who you play fairly often is a sign that you are just not consistent. And you are honest about this which is good, but dont want to accept the solution (to slow down, and play balls that land on the table and also develop adaptable technique that will raise your playing level).

Think of strokes as a set of swings through paths. Thick contact adds speed, turning contact adds spin. Contact point on the ball also adapts to spin (you hit higher on the ball for topspin, lower on the ball for backspin). You serve the ball, get a pips push back, hit the ball and it goes off the table. So what should you have done? You should have covered the ball more and maybe used less forcr. And since this is table tennis, you are likely to get the same exact play again. But what do people who just want to hit the ball do? They do what they always did and get the same results. And then complain about pips. When if you just accepted the responsibility to cover the ball a bit more, you would miss a few shots but after missing the first few, your swing planes would get the ball on the table and you have solved one play. Let's say the ball went onto the net. Then you need to add a bit more arc. Then you adapt to that while repeating the same sequence. It might cost you some points but once you adapt, you can win a lot of points as well

That play might be enough to win The match but usually smart opponents avoid plays that are one Dimensional and look to change the playing field if it is not in their favor. So the opponent might try a different return or placement. But you know what?, As long as you know what you did, know what the opponent did and know how to adapt your stroke, you will always be in control because the pips don't have that much variation in quality, most pf their variation is in placement. The main power pips have is they keep the ball relatively short. Their weakness is that they are relatively slow so if you move, you have time.

Playing pips is a test of adaptability. You have already described yourself as someone who just likes to hit the ball. The question is whether you want to learn to adapt or not. If you do, the path is wide open for you. If not, nothing anyone says here will make a difference.

 

[blahness]

If you wrap the ball properly, you can deal with ambiguous spin balls much better. Basically you can use a very similar loop stroke for all balls if they are low ish in spin this way. The really bad thing is to have a linear straight line stroke - that way you have to be incredibly precise with your contact.

There's also a underspin lift that drives pips players crazy. Basically you literally lift the ball with an open angle and do a fake wrap followthrough, they will think it is an incoming loop and then dump it in the net. After they adjust, just go back to the actual wrapping loop and watch their blocks fly off the table.

With serves it is best to serve fast long with extreme spin and placement variations. Then serve short to their non pips side (for eg FH short wide) so that they will have to be a contortionist when they try to receive with their pips.

It's kinda evil but they're the ones who started with all the nasty dark side alchemy first.

 

[chimyshark]

Usually, failing to beat a long pips player around your level who you play fairly often is a sign that you are just not consistent. And you are honest about this which is good, but dont want to accept the solution (to slow down, and play balls that land on the table and also develop adaptable technique that will raise your playing level).

Playing pips is a test of adaptability. You have already described yourself as someone who just likes to hit the ball. The question is whether you want to learn to adapt or not. If you do, the path is wide open for you. If not, nothing anyone says here will make a difference.

You're exactly right about me, I don't want to accept the solution and I just want to hit the ball, and yeah I repeatedly act out that stupid sequence of doing the same failing shot, over and over. Well I'm trying my best now. I think I hit my rock bottom moment and ready to just obediently learn to adapt. I watched kids adapt, every time they misread one of my serves, they change their racket angle. For some reason, I hardly ever think of doing this myself. I gotta stop being lazy in my head I guess.

If you wrap the ball properly, you can deal with ambiguous spin balls much better. Basically you can use a very similar loop stroke for all balls if they are low ish in spin this way. The really bad thing is to have a linear straight line stroke - that way you have to be incredibly precise with your contact.

There's also a underspin lift that drives pips players crazy. Basically you literally lift the ball with an open angle and do a fake wrap followthrough, they will think it is an incoming loop and then dump it in the net. After they adjust, just go back to the actual wrapping loop and watch their blocks fly off the table.

With serves it is best to serve fast long with extreme spin and placement variations. Then serve short to their non pips side (for eg FH short wide) so that they will have to be a contortionist when they try to receive with their pips.

Good tips. I generally though wrapping loops was bad technique though. I'll definitely have to try fake motion on loops, I've only ever heard of it done on serves.

 

[dingyibvs]

Just loop it like a no spin ball. A lot of LPs if they have some sponge doesn't have a ton of spin reversal, so most shots coming back are more like no spin balls. Can you loop no-spins well? It's actually kinda hard as there's no spin to borrow and can be hard to attack strongly. Usually unless I'm in very good position I just brush loop it. Against 1600 level LP players any brush loop should work as it take a a high level LP player to attack even low quality ones.

LP players tend to have fluctuating records. A 1600 guy tends to beat some 1800s who don't know how to play against his style and then lose to some 1400s who do. There's no reason why you wouldn't be able to even without developing new skills, you just need to really learn how to play him.

 

[Lazer]

It’s frustrating isn’t it…

You have to wrap your head around the fact that normally you look at the racket motion to determine spin. This is not valid anymore. Try to disconnect this in your head. And remember that if you play a topspin shot it’s gonna come back with back spin and vice versa.
So the simplest strategy is to play push - drive - push -drive… Every other shot underspin and the next topspin.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[blahness]

Good tips. I generally though wrapping loops was bad technique though. I'll definitely have to try fake motion on loops, I've only ever heard of it done on serves.

i use fake movements for everything and it pays a lot of dividends in general, as a lot about TT is about deception.

Wrapping is bad if you do it using the upper arm (for eg by raising elbow). But you can achieve it using forearm pronation as well as the hip rotation itself.

 

[JJ Ng]

It’s frustrating isn’t it…

You have to wrap your head around the fact that normally you look at the racket motion to determine spin. This is not valid anymore. Try to disconnect this in your head. And remember that if you play a topspin shot it’s gonna come back with back spin and vice versa.
So the simplest strategy is to play push - drive - push -drive… Every other shot underspin and the next topspin.

Cheers
L-zr

Agree with Lazer.

There are two things you can do:

One, serve to the side where the player does not have LP, which is likely the forehand side. If the player then stands on his forehand to push pips to push, then you serve no spin fast to far backhand side to keep the other player honest.

Two, most long pips do not have that strong spin reversal anymore due to ITTF rule change. So when you loop, and the ball comes back, just pretend it is a light backspin and the ball would drop "prematurely." Therefore you lean forward and give it a push, with a relatively open racket (because it is really like a no-spin ball). Then when the ball comes back, you treat it like a light topspin ball so you loop it again.

Push, loop, push, loop. Rinse and repeat.

 

[NextLevel]

You're exactly right about me, I don't want to accept the solution and I just want to hit the ball, and yeah I repeatedly act out that stupid sequence of doing the same failing shot, over and over. Well I'm trying my best now. I think I hit my rock bottom moment and ready to just obediently learn to adapt. I watched kids adapt, every time they misread one of my serves, they change their racket angle. For some reason, I hardly ever think of doing this myself. I gotta stop being lazy in my head I guess.

At a high level, the strategy I will give you right now is how I play just about any pips player including choppers.

Start with a lot of (disguised as backspin) float serves into the pips. You can serve them with any major serve you like as long as you can disguise the serve as both heavy backspin and float. When you serve the float, unless the player is highly skilled and even if they reasonably are, the ball will be a float ball. Attack the float ball. Repeat this until you figure out what is on the return ball and you can adjust. The ball may not be actually float, but it will not contain a lot of spin from you and it will be a good guage of what the opponent generates with his own stroke.

If your backspin and float are well disguised, you should earn at least two free points, sometimes more depending on the quality of the disguised and the heaviness of the backspin serve, by replacing the float serve with a backspin serve. Now you also have the option to begin the sequence by serving heavy backspin, getting a return and attacking that. Because that serve has heavy backspin, depending on the skill of the returner, there are more options for what will be on the return, but again you read and adapt over a few plays. In this case, if the opponent adjusts to the backspin serve, then throwing in the float serve should cause them to return the ball off the table or high for a smash/kill.

You can move the placement of the serve around and thrown in an occasional topspin or sidespin serve as a test later in the match but unless you know your opponent really well or practice a lot against them, these are higher risk for adaptation because the ball tracking is harder. It is also good to note the specific brand of pips your opponent is using as very often, similar tactics work against similar pips at the specific brand and thickness of sponge level.

Usually, once you get used to moderating your power and spin to be able to handle pips, the ceiling of your play will be determined more by the ability of the pips player to attack with his pips (which will require you to take some defensive countermeasures) or your ability to play against his spinny side. But once you slow down, the pips become a joke if the user cannot attack with them.

Now when you topspin, the pips player makes a good chop block, the you can either try to topspin again or push back. If you decide to topspin again because the ball is high or because you want to load up the spin, watch your technique and adjust. If you want to push, push once and then attack or roll the next ball. Some players push more than once and wonder why they are popping up the ball (it is because the pips push back to you has no backspin). Some pips players will smash your pop-ups but the weaker ones will push again and let you push until you push the ball off the table. If you are lucky enough to get a pips player who let's you push twice, be sure to attack the third. But more seriously, if you are aggressive with your push and do not go underneath the no spin ball, you can learn go keep spin on your push vs no spin and keep it low. This is a good weapon as well.

You can even serve backspin to the pips and smash. When I was lower rated, I used to serve topspin to the pips and loop because looping against backspin was my thing. My main point here is to build your arsenal of plays and adapt, adapt, adapt. If you learn to adapt to pips, you are unlikely to remain 1400. At least that is my experience, because training against a pips player who scrubs the ball expands your understanding of spin and how to generate it.

Finally, developing a good backhand roll/topspin expands your options massively. Too many players below the 1800 level are reliable pushers on the backhand side and too frequently as well, being able to consistently open against backspin on the backhand allows you to move the pips player around and give them no hiding space from pressure.