Spin variation from long pips pushes - how to read?

[blahness]

I know the basics - long pips basically reverse spin on a push, so say if you served really heavy underspin it will most likely be a topspin and vice versa. However, after more plays against my combination penholder partner, one thing I noticed is that he actually manages to make a long pips push like an inverted push which is befuddling me. I asked him and he said he didn't really understand it either and sometimes it's a bit random. (??!!)

For eg, I served heavy topspin, I expect backspin back and pushed the short ball, and it ends up sky high like I pushed a topspin ball.

Or, I serve heavy backspin, I expect a topspin back and when I flicked the short ball it ended up hitting the base of the net.

I watched some chopper matchups for eg Joo Se Hyuk, Hou Yingchao and Ma Te and they apparently do the same spin variation deliberately. For eg when the inverted players push to them, they push it back - there's actually 3 possibilities - it can still be heavy backspin just like an inverted push (?!), it could be dead, or it could be completely spin reversed (topspin) as what I would have expected.

This sounds a bit like sorcery but I would like to know how this is controlled and how I can tell the difference.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Back in late 70's early 80s I used Feint quite successfully, and I was interested in varying the spin with it. Of course the big selling point of lp is that the direction of rotation comes from opponents previous shot and variation was up to opponent only.
For example when chopping back loop was I limited to just returning my opponents rotation or not?
What I found was that mostly that was true, but when I managed to return a full blooded KILL my shot was fizzing with extra backspin. Why???
Conclusion was that in returning a normal loop the pips were bending back "like grass" and not gripping the ball so returning opponents rotation. But when I returned a big KILL the pips bent right back to the rubber momentarily thus providing strong friction for that one shot.
A logical follow up to this might be, that in a pushing rally, when spin reversal occurs, causing 'pop-ups ' if one learns to slice really violently yet with good touch a genuine chop might happen.
I experimented both with chop pushing and chop serving and got some success.
With many years hindsight I still believe in the heavy return of the big KILL but in the push scenario I am not convinced that the pips were pinned back enough and that what occurred was a slight increase in backspin which is bound to happen, analogous to what happens if you move your hand across water in a swimming pool:- if gently the water gives way but if violent it becomes like concrete.
Note I have just recorded details of a 'thought experiment' !
I know something happened but BB would quite rightly request laboratory conditions and high speed cameras to determine exactly what !!

 

[JJ Ng]

I know the basics - long pips basically reverse spin on a push, so say if you served really heavy underspin it will most likely be a topspin and vice versa. However, after more plays against my combination penholder partner, one thing I noticed is that he actually manages to make a long pips push like an inverted push which is befuddling me. I asked him and he said he didn't really understand it either and sometimes it's a bit random. (??!!)

For eg, I served heavy topspin, I expect backspin back and pushed the short ball, and it ends up sky high like I pushed a topspin ball.

Or, I serve heavy backspin, I expect a topspin back and when I flicked the short ball it ended up hitting the base of the net.

I watched some chopper matchups for eg Joo Se Hyuk, Hou Yingchao and Ma Te and they apparently do the same spin variation deliberately. For eg when the inverted players push to them, they push it back - there's actually 3 possibilities - it can still be heavy backspin just like an inverted push (?!), it could be dead, or it could be completely spin reversed (topspin) as what I would have expected.

This sounds a bit like sorcery but I would like to know how this is controlled and how I can tell the difference.

Here is the video. And the answer is cut and pasted below, from the comment section of the video:

@assa1975
2 months ago
Nice vid, thanks! As an LP user, however, I am a bit surprised how general your approach towards 'funny rubbers' was. One of the first thing they teach for an LP (modern) defender is how to play push-to-push with long pips and how to create backspin in your own shot, which is much more difficult than create a dead ball instead. The difference in the two is the amount of brush by increasing acceleration of the wrist and amplitude of the total swing. And you need soft bendy pips on a soft-ish sponge. But then the magic happens: suddenly there is no spin reversal that is commanded by your opponent, but only spin reversal that you yourself may choose to create or not. Similarly, you control the amount of reversal on your chop, as well as the block. Players like Masato Shiono were experts at this. So I suggest you create a 'Part 2' follow up now

In my personal opinion, it depends on the long pips. Some long pips have a very good "grip" so it is likely not very deceptive but in those case your opponent should find that type of long pip rubber to be "easier to control" because it behaves more like inverted. Some long pips have very poor "grip" to no grip so the return can be very deceptive.

And the hardness or the softness of the long pips matters too. I am sure that's why some long pips players bake their rubbers literally under the sun to create a bit more brittleness in the pips to make them more deceptive.

 

[NextLevel]

I know the basics - long pips basically reverse spin on a push, so say if you served really heavy underspin it will most likely be a topspin and vice versa. However, after more plays against my combination penholder partner, one thing I noticed is that he actually manages to make a long pips push like an inverted push which is befuddling me. I asked him and he said he didn't really understand it either and sometimes it's a bit random. (??!!)

For eg, I served heavy topspin, I expect backspin back and pushed the short ball, and it ends up sky high like I pushed a topspin ball.

Or, I serve heavy backspin, I expect a topspin back and when I flicked the short ball it ended up hitting the base of the net.

I watched some chopper matchups for eg Joo Se Hyuk, Hou Yingchao and Ma Te and they apparently do the same spin variation deliberately. For eg when the inverted players push to them, they push it back - there's actually 3 possibilities - it can still be heavy backspin just like an inverted push (?!), it could be dead, or it could be completely spin reversed (topspin) as what I would have expected.

This sounds a bit like sorcery but I would like to know how this is controlled and how I can tell the difference.

@Der_Echte should comment as well if he can, but the first thing to note is that the basic advice on spin reversal works best when your opponent is using OX (no sponge) and even then it is a bit more consistent when there is less friction in the pips and they are not as good for hitting.

When you introduce sponge, things change and the pips are capable of more and not always at the control of the pips user depending on skill level. Serving long also has a risk element in that it lets the returner stroke into the ball. If you can, you really want the pips guy to hit a falling ball over the table or above table height, not super short but not fast long either unless he has a massive control problem. But basically, the sponge enables the user to play with more grip on some shots. So you can't just assume reversal without looking at the stroke and listening for the sound of the ball.

I have also found some sponge/grippy long pips to play more like short pips than like long pips. So usually when I face a new player, rather than rely too strongly on their description of the rubber, I check the sponge and I try to remember whether I have played against that particular rubber or thickness before. If I haven't, then I look at the sponge. I basically use game 1 to test the quality of ball I get back. I avoid relying too strongly on general understanding because sponge can change that because it can introduce grip. OX, I am more comfortable relying on reversal if I know this is a push blocking and less hitting oriented style.

 

[blahness]

I think I might be getting to something here. It is the same principle as reading LP serves. The thicker the contact on LP pushes, the less spin reversal there will be and they can even add their own underspin on pushes with sufficient force. The thinner the contact, the more the spin reversal produced. This also explains why lower level LP players can only have a spin reversal option with not much variation, they dont have the technique to produce explosive power in the push from weight transfer.

 

[brokenball]

I think you guys have this figured out. The main technique to play against LP is to push then hit and repeat. You must alway keep track of how you hit the last ball.

I have a chopping paddle. It is a Donic Defplay Senso V3 with TSP P-R1 with 1.4mm sponge. I think I "roll" or chop most people's topspin and add more spin to the ball with this setup.
I know my practice partners seem to give this setup more respect than when I play with my blocking paddles.

I have two Firewall+ push blocking paddles. Olivier Madder, AKA Pushblocker, was the inspiration for this but I found the Giant Dragon Talon 0X before he did. This setup provides pretty good spin reversal and is difficult for new opponents to play against but my regular practice partners lose few points due the LP 0X.

If I often times will play pushblocker style with my chopping paddle because I don't get back fast enough.
When playing pushblocker style you don't want to bend the pips because that add friction. Sometime you hear LP player talk about side swiping. That does increase friction but it adds stability to the ball so it doesn't just float.

Actually I am too old and slow for chopping but I would make a good practice partner.

 

[Der_Echte]

An over-generalization on what is given to and LP player (who makes the shot with LP) and what comes back will likely get you in TROUBLE.

There are SO MANY factors going on that affect the in vs out equation. Much will depend on what ball you gave then, what rubber, sponge, and blade they have, how well they can make quick acceleration, their control of bat angle and stroke direction, and how well they can control grip pressure. (Exhibit 2A)

These all change things and many of them are game changers.

With thin sponge or OX, when you give a very light ball, the LP player will not be able to do much to change the spin... so you know what is coming in that aspect... but that player can adjust grip pressure and slow the ball down to make you REALLY look stupid when you try to push and now the ball is not there yet... so you pop it up reaching out... that LP player can take it early and firm and now send you a faster deady ball... and you may struggle with your bat angle and impact.

When you give a ball with at least medium pace and or at least medium heavy spin, then the LP player can give you back a bunch of underspin, or kill the pace/spin and give you very little... all depending on the grip pressure at impact, the bat speed, the rubber/sponge and the bat angle.

The pushing can also be tricky depending on what pace and underspin you give them, along with all the other factors I presented in Exhibit 2A.

This means a push can come back deader than a doornail, or have some decent underspin, or maybe light top.
NL and others went into it a little on WHY there can be some reversal (actually spin continuation), but you will need to try things for yourself.

So basically, you can understand equipment and technique limitations and possibilities, but will need to empirically test things for yourselves against each opponent.

Sounds complicated... it can be and is, but it is pretty much the same process of how to figure out an opponent, even if it is 2x inverted.