Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

chuckjordan2 · Sep 3, 2016

One hour until I go to the club. Listening to 70's Rock songs. Thinking about what to execute. Thinking it'll be footwork and softening my strokes. Also gripping the handle different.

Der_Echte · Sep 3, 2016

Good thoughts indeed.

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Der_Echte · Sep 3, 2016

Old School P, Somehow, Nexy Korea shipped me an Amazon CP blade (all wood blade with feel) I had it in my trunk last time and forgot to break it out. You outta give it a try, I think you will like looping and countering close to table with it. Everything close to table is great. Sinc USD Carl never gave Amazon a whirl, He will use CP grip just to feel this puppy.

Small adjustments to grip at impact on blocks let you pull the puppet strings with this.

Boogar · Sep 3, 2016

But in tt we do not want to train the muscles in a way we do for 100,200 and 400 meter sprints. That's different kind of muscle usage.
My point is why train in a way you wont need in a real match?

If you need more fitness there are better training methods for that. If you need to learn. the right technique you can do it at a very low speed.

Ofc you can use multi-ball however you want! This is just the method they taught us in that seminar and I can understand that reasoning.

Boogar · Sep 3, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Sorry guys. I am sure the 8 second thing was given with the coaching certification to try and make sure that you are safe with your students. But 8 seconds is not accurate and man that is a short amount of time, even in the fastest TT drill:

Time that. I am confident. That is more than 8 seconds. In fact it is about 35 seconds.

Also, stop the video at about the 11 second mark to know what 8 seconds of multiball is.

If this 8 second rule was accurate running the 100, 200 and 400 meter sprints would all be bad for you. So would any run longer.

Cardio training is about giving you the endurance to do an act longer and longer. I have been fed multiball by Michael Landers for 4 straight buckets that contained a gross of balls each. I guarantee that it took longer than 8 seconds, 1 minute, 3 minutes. It was probably about 5-6 min. At the end Mike was happy when I had to go for my asthma inhaler and said: "that's the first time I've ever seen you out of breath and need that thing!" He was happy he had made me work hard.

Right now, I am not in that shape because I actually don't have much time to work out or play TT. But back then I would do my shadow drill practice for 1 hour straight going as hard and fast as I could for as long. And I would mix in ladder drills and lateral sprints and two different treadmill workouts.

The first treadmill workout was switching from going forward, going lateral, going backwards, going lateral the other way and then reversing the direction.

The second treadmill workout was starting at a decent pace like a 6 on the treadmill and then spiking the speed up to 8 for a minute and then back to 6; then spiking to 9 for a minute, then back to 6; then up to 9.5 and back to 6. Then when I got it to 10, after the first few times at 10, I tried to push the length at full speed till I could stay at 10 for almost 2 min. Then you wind down the speed. I can't remember how many miles per minute 10 is. But it is fast.

And I guarantee that if you do cardio like what I am describing, 8 seconds of multiball isn't enough. Regardless of what intensity.

With cardio workouts like the ones I mentioned, you do have to look out for your heart rate. Which also means you have to take your time to get in the kind of shape where you can do that kind of workout.

But if your heart rate stays in a good target range, that work is fine for you.

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My last post should be a reply to this one here.

ttmonster · Sep 3, 2016

Here is the thing Boogar, we won't be good students unless we trust our teachers and what they say 100% at that time in that class in that phase of our lives ... but its also a process through which you go , where you deconstruct what the teacher says and try to put it into perspective ...

ask yourself, in all the training that Usain Bolt does , does he really never run longer than 10 seconds or 19 seconds if you consider he has to run a max of 200 meters ... ?

Its just not about playing one rally , its also about recovering from that rally and playing another rally in what ? a matter of 10 seconds at the most ... so if you tell me that each multiball should last 8 seconds and then there should be a break of 8 - 10 seconds and then another multiball drill , may be just may be it might make sense ... but just look at the some of the rallies at the pro level, they do last more than 8 seconds and matches do last for an hour and a little bit more if it goes to a seventh... and is it possible that players would not get ready for the worst scenario possible and make sure their cardio vascular fitness is ready to take that kind of beating ... and rather take the average length of a table tennis rally and restrict their practice to that length ? ... the reasoning is flawed at many levels, even without being an expert you can tell it , just that we don't have the numbers or statistics on our fingertips that are required to academically or mathematically prove the instructor wrong ..

Boogar said:
But in tt we do not want to train the muscles in a way we do for 100,200 and 400 meter sprints. That's different kind of muscle usage.
My point is why train in a way you wont need in a real match?

If you need more fitness there are better training methods for that. If you need to learn. the right technique you can do it at a very low speed.

Ofc you can use multi-ball however you want! This is just the method they taught us in that seminar and I can understand that reasoning.

Archosaurus · Sep 3, 2016

Sweat in training so you don't bleed in battle, as they say.

Say you were training to do 100 curls with a 5kg dumbbell and you can do 50. Would you keep lifting the 5kg dumbbell as training or would you move to a weight where you can do only, say, 12?

Boogar · Sep 3, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Sweat in training so you don't bleed in battle, as they say.

Say you were training to do 100 curls with a 5kg dumbbell and you can do 50. Would you keep lifting the 5kg dumbbell as training or would you move to a weight where you can do only, say, 12?

Monster and Arch both of your comparisons make sense to me. However i believe we are talking past each other.

The multiball I mean should be suited as replacement for in game moves. You do them in rapid succession but not without a break. Meaning you should give the trainee just enough time to get back into position and then you go again.

In this video we see the pattern I'm talking about. Ma long plays 3-4 balls in a match like set up and then resets.

In the second video we can see multiball in a non game situation. Ma long has time to reset after every ball. So ofc ma long is doing more than 8 seconds but it is more a concatenation of one second intervals.

The argument that you should be prepared for the extreme case is valid as well. However not all of you sessions should aim for that. More like about the same percentage as such cases appear.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 4, 2016

Boogar said:
My last post should be a reply to this one here.

There is no way around the fact that 8 seconds is not long enough for most multiball drills. And the multiball in the video I posted is a minimum of 33 seconds of multiball and they clearly could go longer. The video is 39 seconds long. They start the drill at around 2-3 seconds. Stop the video at 11 seconds and it will be at least 8 seconds. See how little happens in that 8 seconds. 8 seconds is actually not enough for most multiball drills.

You can decide for yourself. But OF COURSE there is a reason to train for more cardio endurance than YOU NEED in the sport. That is what training is about. That is like saying you don't need to do multiball faster than you actually play in TT. Of course that helps you feel like regular speed is not as fast. And training for 1 min non-stopped of some multiball drills can make it so you can go all out when you have one of those longer, more challenging rallies.

If 8 seconds was as long as you should do, these guys would be in trouble in those long rallies where there are 50-100 hits.

And there is no question the physiology you presented is off or, again, a sprinter would not be able to do a 200 meter or more sprint. That was the context within which I said that. You said something about muscles and lactic acid and more than 8 seconds and the physiology of what you said is simply not the case.

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Boogar · Sep 4, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
There is no way around the fact that 8 seconds is not long enough for most multiball drills. And the multiball in the video I posted is a minimum of 33 seconds of multiball and they clearly could go longer. The video is 39 seconds long. They start the drill at around 2-3 seconds. Stop the video at 11 seconds and it will be at least 8 seconds. See how little happens in that 8 seconds. 8 seconds is actually not enough for most multiball drills.

You can decide for yourself. But OF COURSE there is a reason to train for more cardio endurance than YOU NEED in the sport. That is what training is about. That is like saying you don't need to do multiball faster than you actually play in TT. Of course that helps you feel like regular speed is not as fast. And training for 1 min non-stopped of some multiball drills can make it so you can go all out when you have one of those longer, more challenging rallies.

If 8 seconds was as long as you should do, these guys would be in trouble in those long rallies where there are 50-100 hits.

And there is no question the physiology you presented is off or, again, a sprinter would not be able to do a 200 meter or more sprint. That was the context within which I said that. You said something about muscles and lactic acid and more than 8 seconds and the physiology of what you said is simply not the case.

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I think you don't get what i mean.

About the multiball theme my last post above should make my standpoint clearer. At least i hope so.

The multiball shown in the stiga video is probably for commercial purposes, and clearly not realistic. As i have said before such prolonged multiball drills can be done to train extreme situations, mental strength or and can be used as part of high interval training with the emphasis on fitness.

As for the physiology i presented I am pretty sure its correct. Its just hard for me to explain it in English. And i am sorry if I get across confusing.

Concerning the sprinter you keep bringing up. They use their muscles far over the lactic acid threshold. That's why most of them have trouble even walking after a sprint, especially 400 meter sprinters. As for 100 meter sprinters the may even be able to sprint again, just like Thompson did recently, as their lactic acid threshold is much higher than that of the average person and also of that of a tt player.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 4, 2016

The video you posted of Ma Long that has what amounts to approx 8 second intervals with brief rest is one drill among many.

Those are good exercises as well.

In this drill the intensity is higher and the first round is 20 seconds.

In the Xu Xin video the multiball is 33 seconds (minimum). Are you still saying multiball has to be only 8 seconds and that there is a physiological reason where that is the END RANGE?

Both the XX video and the ZJK video are more intense than the 8 second intervals in the Ma Long video.

Really only 8 seconds. I guess XX and ZJK's coaches must be wrong.

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Archosaurus · Sep 4, 2016

Boogar, I think you're really underestimating the human body's capabilities. Has a trainer ever pushed you to do 3x or 5x more of something that you were sure you couldn't do more of?

Boogar · Sep 4, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
The video you posted of Ma Long that has what amounts to approx 8 second intervals with brief rest is one drill among many.

Those are good exercises as well.

In this drill the intensity is higher and the first round is 20 seconds.

In the Xu Xin video the multiball is 33 seconds (minimum). Are you still saying multiball has to be only 8 seconds and that there is a physiological reason where that is the END RANGE?

Both the XX video and the ZJK video are more intense than the 8 second intervals in the Ma Long video.

Really only 8 seconds. I guess XX and ZJK's coaches must be wrong.

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This video looks like a show training as well... ofc they will show off. And The extreme drills are probably published a lot more.

Boogar · Sep 4, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Boogar, I think you're really underestimating the human body's capabilities. Has a trainer ever pushed you to do 3x or 5x more of something that you were sure you couldn't do more of?

Jea but then its not about realistic game moves anymore... its will training.

Archosaurus · Sep 4, 2016

Boogar said:
Jea but then its not about realistic game moves anymore... its will training.

Do you go to the gym? I assume you do:

Do you consider every time you squeeze out one or two more reps when you think you can't "will training" and not ideal for physical training?

Boogar · Sep 4, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Do you go to the gym? I assume you do:

Do you consider every time you squeeze out one or two more reps when you think you can't "will training" and not ideal for physical training?

So table tennis is only physical training for you?

If you see multiball as a fitness drill I agree with you. But now I am starting to repeat myself.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 4, 2016

Boogar said:
This video looks like a show training as well... ofc they will show off. And The extreme drills are probably published a lot more.

Serious denial. That is some of the best random multiball training ever. There is nothing wrong with them giving you information that helps you err on the side of caution. But there is clearly a value in that kind of drill.

I have a friend named Rocky Wang who when he was 16 was about 2600. He told me the training they put him through was brutal. That before he got in good enough shape for it he would be throwing up at the end of training from how hard they worked him. I'm not saying that a what people should do. But you can do it and it will get your strength and stamina to a much different level than the kind of training you are taking about.

And I know for a fact that Ernesto Ebuen used to kill Michael Landers and Mark Croitoroo with multiball drills until their legs felt like rubber and they had to really rest and catch their breath.

There are reasons for all kinds of different strategies for training.

Saying that physiologically we can't handle more than 8 seconds is just....I don't know, naive acceptance of a random pierce of information that is not accurate.

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UpSideDownCarl · Sep 4, 2016

And from a real, actual safety standpoint, the important information is that:

The person's heart rate should not go over a certain number of beats per miniature that is determined by age, gender and body weight.

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Boogar · Sep 4, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Serious denial. That is some of the best random multiball training ever. There is nothing wrong with them giving you information that helps you err on the side of caution. But there is clearly a value in that kind of drill.

I have a friend named Rocky Wang who when he was 16 was about 2600. He told me the training they put him through was brutal. That before he got in good enough shape for it he would be throwing up at the end of training from how hard they worked him. I'm not saying that a what people should do. But you can do it and it will get your strength and stamina to a much different level than the kind of training you are taking about.

And I know for a fact that Ernesto Ebuen used to kill Michael Landers and Mark Croitoroo with multiball drills until their legs felt like rubber and they had to really rest and catch their breath.

There are reasons for all kinds of different strategies for training.

Saying that physiologically we can't handle more than 8 seconds is just....I don't know, naive acceptance of a random pierce of information that is not accurate.

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Now you are turning my words...
I never said you can't handle more than 8 seconds. It just is not a good approach to get used to realistic circumstances.

Archosaurus · Sep 4, 2016

Boogar, if you want to get used to realistic circumstances, you don't do multiball, you do games or hitting drills. Multiball is very unrealistic. It's supposed to be very unrealistic.

Why do you think they train special operations forces like they're gonna be taking on an army of terminators?

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