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says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Now you are turning my words...
I never said you can't handle more than 8 seconds. It just is not a good approach to get used to realistic circumstances.

It is what my post with the XX video was about. I was clear with it in that video. I will find your post and see if I am twisting your words.


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says Spin and more spin.
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What i learned in my trainer seminar week was that you shouldn't do multi ball for more than 20 balls and not more than 8 seconds, because then your muscles would produce lactic acid and that's a bad thing for us table tennis players.

Concerning cardio: cardio isn't of use in one or two matches. It get's important if you play for a whole day or have training camp for a week. If you cardio is bad your condition will get worse over a day of playing and in a training's camp you will be too tired after 3-4 days and your body wont learn anymore.

So explain exactly what this actually means.


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Boogar, I know it might not feel too nice to be called out on your bs and having to admit you're wrong about some things when you are clearly just talking about something you didn't really understand, but it will help you understand and grow if you admit how full of shit you are.

Trust me, I should know. :p

EDIT: Oh, and to clarify, I don't think he is entirely wrong in what he is saying.

You shouldn't always train to the point where you can't even lift your arms and legs anymore. My reasoning is that, when you do not have very proper fundamentals ingrained, the fatigue will not instill helpful habits into what you learn and it might be very difficult or impossible to perform difficult, unfamiliar movements when very fatigued.

Now, I am basing this on my own experiences. From my own experience also, it's a very different thing to try to LEARN an entirely new thing when fatigued, and to attempt to PUSH THE BOUNDARIES of an already learned thing when fatigued.

Now, you can always argue what is learning and what is refining a learned skill and if there even exists a distinction between them, but I think you understand my point.
 
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Boogar, Carl,

Some of this stuff would disappear if we were looking for what is best for our games. and not trying to be right or wrong. None of this is quite important - just get to an agreement on what the main details are.

Won and lost today in tournament play. Worst loss and best win posted below. DerEchte can get his popcorn.


 
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Ironically, I waz eating popcorn at 1:30 AM when I rolled accross NL's thread.

Man NL, Player M read the spin on your fast loops real well and it took you 3-12 shots to win a point. Player M thrives off that, you were on your game, but if a small tad off he wins. M hates really heavy slow spin, even when he blocks it, the ball is now a target for a Rambo kill. He also hates hookshots to his extreme wide FH.

Either way, good to see you get Ur RACHE vs M. He would have hated life if he was in my group if I was fit to show up.

I made it back to home base at 2 AM Sat... no way I was gunna make it, quads were killed anyways from helping out on the apt moving mission.
 
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Wow, looked at the first vid and it was our player M again, but this time writing down the winning score. He really seems to know how to step it up by reaching out front to block or punch in an odd manner, but it works, he stays alive his opponents make mistakes. Well, you must have played him in Semis or something and won when it counted. HE keeps his rating upper 1800s +/- 50 but he plays 2000 level vs the determined continuous attacking crowd. He has defeated many a player at that level, so losing isn't so shameful, but i think a few things really trouble him. His Dracula Garlic is extreme heavy spin landing shallow and soft no-spin when he falls back. He doesn't like an immediate attack from a short serve (but luvs them long)

I try to not give him a chance to get into rallies, I just go all out Rambo on him to stop that from developing.
 
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To continue the 8 second debate and crash it into the wall all over again, Korean coaches allow you to stop a bit when you are trying to breath in 100 liters of air each breath and heart rate is over 200+ defib. Once heart is down to 199, they pick it back up heavy all over again.

If a player is real fatigued, they get 5-8 seconds, but when they are that tired, they will be out of gas again after 2-3 single ball rallies. After a player holds hiz hand and sucks air frantically 4 times, they are back in the fight. If player does 3-4 times within a minute, coach usually transitions to something a little less strneuous, but still eough to make you regret signing up for lessons.

You would think that after 3 minutes of total smoke drill comprised of BH, step around FH, and sprint crossover like mad to get to wide FH ball and race back to Bh corner etc, that somethin easy like medium pace step in flick the short ball drill would be a welcome, but it is, but even 2 minutes of that gets ur legs into rubber as you step in/step out with force and if you are 100 kg like me that gets tiresum right quick.

Korean coaches are evil snickering Muttley upgrades.

 
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Now you are turning my words...
I never said you can't handle more than 8 seconds. It just is not a good approach to get used to realistic circumstances.

In the CNT each player has their own coach specifically chosen for their playstyle. So obviously the coaches will choose what they think is more suitable, a short multiball drill or not. Both have benefits such as the short one will create more of a match like scenario so when playing a FH in a match it feels more natural or when wanting to practise individual things e.g. the backhand flick and the follow up shot, however, multiball is mainly to DRILL into your head the strokes and footwork needed for both FH and BH. It is meant to be quick and long lasting to make you do the strokes without thinking, to move quickly to the ball without thinking. This is just my opinion and how I see it...
 
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There is a video where Istvan Korpa (germany's ex-head coach) explain the differences between chinese and european multiball drills. He found shorter intense multiball drills more effective. In hungary coaches also taught to use shorter drills, maximum 10 balls. The reasons are: 1. He prefer to stop the drill after seeing any problem 2. european players become slower and slower after many balls so ball quality gets worse and worse (they are physically weaker) 3. Long drills requires high skill level, otherwise it's nonsense.
So Boogar was right when he said that 8 sec. limit, at least as right as european coaches are. Personally I think that european coaches should take physical training more seriously and then nothing wrong with longer multiball drills.
 
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There is no right way to multiball. It's personal preference as well as knowing what you need to work on and choosing the situation to help you improve. Personally, I like fairly short multiball drills (maybe 10 - 15 shots) because I am moving around a lot and my shots can lose quality when I ache. However, if I'm warming up, a longer one isn't bad to begin with (all FH to the FH corner and vica versa).
 
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Had 3 hours practice session yesterday and I'm pretty happy that my level of play isn't decreasing despite not really playing for 4 months.

Also, I like SPW but I seriously can't handle its head heaviness. I switched to my Innerforce for a sec and the head is just much easier to move and swing around. I'm still not used to the bigger headsize and head heaviness of SPW but since I'm getting an OSP V+, it probably doesn't really matter
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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What i learned in my trainer seminar week was that you shouldn't do multi ball for more than 20 balls and not more than 8 seconds, because then your muscles would produce lactic acid and that's a bad thing for us table tennis players.

Boogar, Carl,

Some of this stuff would disappear if we were looking for what is best for our games. and not trying to be right or wrong. None of this is quite important - just get to an agreement on what the main details are.

I think that is a good suggestion
NextLevel, thanks.

I never had a problem with the idea that the kind of multiball drills that Boogar showed Ma Long doing where he stopped and started again after short spurts. Those are good and useful; that kind of drill has a purpose.

But the idea that they are the only kind of multiball--unless it is one ball at a time, like his second video--is just not accurate.

And that he presented that there was a physiological reason--"Longer than 8 seconds causes us to produce lactic acid in our muscles and that is not good for table tennis"--is just not true.

Any muscle effort over time causes lactic acid buildup. If you have ever been sore after playing your muscles had lactic acid buildup.

My simple point is, there are lots of different kinds of training and lots of different purposes for training.

So, while there are definitely reasons why shorter multiball drills that simulate aspects of game play would clearly be valuable, to say any one way of practicing is THE ONLY WAY, is simply misguided because it misses the point that training is a complex approach to problem solving issues that specific players need to work on.

And limiting work to only 1 or 2 kinds of exercise limits the potential for progress.

While there are reasons to practice shorter 8 second drills, there are countless reasons to have drills that push the limits of your physical endurance.

And training a player to improve needs to include tools of problem solving that help a trainer understand what methods will best help whatever player they are currently working with. And what that player will need to work on will change day by day, week by week, month by month.

As a player improves at one skill, there will be other skills he/she needs to work on more.

Anything that limits the tools at the disposal of someone who wants to be a coach, will ultimately limit their ability to be effective.

I was not in Boogar's training seminar so I can't say the actual reason for this imposed limit. And perhaps it will help his coaching skills in the near future.

But if Boogar keeps coaching and starts becoming a good and effective coach who reads his students well, and figures out what they need to work on and what will help them most, there will come times when he realizes that a particular student he is working with needs drills he was trained not to use.

Having taught something physical (not table tennis) for over 20 years, I have literally worked with thousands upon thousands of people. Over the course of those 20 years, I have come across person after person who needed specifically things I had, when going through training, been taught never to do.

When you work with people, you have to read what they need and adjust your work based on your best assessment of what the person's needs actually are. Some openness in the guidelines is very valuable.

So if the statement was something like:

"For the most part, in table tennis, the multiball drills that are most effective at simulating game skills and getting you to improve your match rally skills, last for max 8 seconds and/or max 20 balls."

I am okay with it.

But once the statement is:

"....you shouldn't do multi ball for more than 20 balls and not more than 8 seconds...."

I will counter. And if something like this is added:

"....because then your muscles would produce lactic acid and that's a bad thing for us table tennis players..."

I will definitely say that the information is off.


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Wow, looked at the first vid and it was our player M again, but this time writing down the winning score. He really seems to know how to step it up by reaching out front to block or punch in an odd manner, but it works, he stays alive his opponents make mistakes. Well, you must have played him in Semis or something and won when it counted. HE keeps his rating upper 1800s +/- 50 but he plays 2000 level vs the determined continuous attacking crowd. He has defeated many a player at that level, so losing isn't so shameful, but i think a few things really trouble him. His Dracula Garlic is extreme heavy spin landing shallow and soft no-spin when he falls back. He doesn't like an immediate attack from a short serve (but luvs them long)

I try to not give him a chance to get into rallies, I just go all out Rambo on him to stop that from developing.

I lost to him 0-3 in th Open Quarters and beat him 3-1 in the U2000 Final. I have come to accept that part the problem here is that I am not used to playing long rallies. I usually don't play 3-5 forehands and lose the point, but it happened at least twice in the match I won and more often in the match I lost. Would be interesting to see you play him - I wish I could play him almost every day because he would send my level up a 100 points at least, probably more as having to make so many shots to win a point would just improve my cardio and point resilience.

The guy took KZ too to 5 games in the open Semis and the thing about the first match that I lost 0-3 was that after I played it, I just didn't feel bad about how I played. All the games were 2 point margins and I felt with a bit more consistency here or there, I should have won all of them. In the first match, my serving got a bit too predictable and I didn't adjust after he adjusted. I had more variation with my serve placement in the second match.
 
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There is no right way to multiball. It's personal preference as well as knowing what you need to work on and choosing the situation to help you improve. Personally, I like fairly short multiball drills (maybe 10 - 15 shots) because I am moving around a lot and my shots can lose quality when I ache. However, if I'm warming up, a longer one isn't bad to begin with (all FH to the FH corner and vica versa).

Stimmt. Agreed. So many ways to smoke you... or in American English, so many ways to skin a cat.

In Korean amature clubs, even though coaches all seem to be using the same coaching manual/philosophy, they do make accommodations individually based on the shape the player is in. Still, they all have the goal to smoke the daylights outta you, they just take it further to the blow-up point the better TT shape you are in. They don't care if you are 50, if you can hang doing the intense stuff, they will give it to you right up to the point where you will explode and need emergency medical assistance.

By the way, if you ever get hurt in Korea, don't do it late Sep, that is a 2 week period where everyone is going to and from their clan's hometowns, the whole country is pretty much shut down or slowed down.

If you are bleeding out, don't wait for an ambulance, they take forever to get called and when they do, no one driving will want to get out of their way. The fastest way to get to a hospital is to get in a taxi and hand over an extra 10 USD and say get me there FAST. Once that happens, even James Bond in his Aston Martin would not be able to keep up.

You give a 10 spot or more to a taxi driver and request to get there a little faster, they will break every traffic law in the books and defy physics to get you there faster.
 
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Had 3 hours practice session yesterday and I'm pretty happy that my level of play isn't decreasing despite not really playing for 4 months.

Also, I like SPW but I seriously can't handle its head heaviness. I switched to my Innerforce for a sec and the head is just much easier to move and swing around. I'm still not used to the bigger headsize and head heaviness of SPW but since I'm getting an OSP V+, it probably doesn't really matter

Der_Echte's Beast Mod and Grip Tape will make you feel 1000% better about the blade you love, you gotta try it to believe it.

However, a simpler solution that is very safe and fast is to put on some cushioned grip tape like TSP or BTY. Nexy grip tape is fine, but TSP and BTY are a little heavier.

You put on grip tape and add a few grams low, it will affect balance in a positive way. Sometimes this is enough for some players.

By now the forums knows me and grip tape alone is not enough for me.
 
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Interesting to read about multiball duration, when I have had my second training with my coach. He definitely gives me multiball more than 1 min, usually when he stops is when he realises that I can no longer move.. which isn't that long due to my knee condition and being generally de-conditioned.

Today I shared one hour of coaching with my other teammate. Then after that one hour, we continued for 1.5 hr between 3 players of multiball. Totally exhausted at the moment. Hopefully my knee will survive.

I will post a short clip of the multiball I mentioned later
 
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NextLevel (COL Trautman) said:
I lost to him 0-3 in the Open Quarters and beat him 3-1 in the U2000 Final. I have come to accept that part the problem here is that I am not used to playing long rallies. I usually don't play 3-5 forehands and lose the point, but it happened at least twice in the match I won and more often in the match I lost. Would be interesting to see you play him - I wish I could play him almost every day because he would send my level up a 100 points at least, probably more as having to make so many shots to win a point would just improve my cardio and point resilience.

The guy took KZ too to 5 games in the open Semis and the thing about the first match that I lost 0-3 was that after I played it, I just didn't feel bad about how I played. All the games were 2 point margins and I felt with a bit more consistency here or there, I should have won all of them. In the first match, my serving got a bit too predictable and I didn't adjust after he adjusted. I had more variation with my serve placement in the second match.

Here is Der_Echte's book on defeating player M.

First thing is your recognize how Player M wins his points. Sometimes he make a weak, but hard to read attack close to table, but almost all his points come from your mistakes. He will bait you into hitting power drives. he sticks his bat out front and loosens his grip at impact enough to make the ball NOT be what it looks like spin-wise, yet he will put just enough pace (and keep it low) to pressure you. Under pressure, the players' animal instincts take over and your primal urge it to swing away and try to hit it HARDER. This is exactly what he wants. He can keep blocking like that all day without risk and you are taking risky shots with too much power and not exactly in position. If you dont powerdrive his first offering and he stays at the table, he has a quick BH dead hit that is tricky, just enough pace to rush you and you mis-read and mis-hit.

Second thing (now we realize what he loves) is to play to avoid falling into a rally that favors him. There is nothing wrong with ripping a ball or two, but unless it is in the right place or surprise him, that ball is coming back. On receive, BH loop heavy and high to his wide BH corner with high arc, he might block it, but it comes back high and slow-safe, you are ready to step around and crush kill that ball. On serve, use mostly short serves, keep him at the table. He has less time to react to an attack. Go for a fast shot wide angles. OR... go for heavy spin to his wide corners, use a FH hookshot or any high arc super heavy spin ball, you will get a block back, but be ready for a tricky spin, read the ball and be in position, he will kill you if you are out of position. MIX UP THE SERVES, but show him very heavy underspin right away.

Third, if you are in a rally going his way and you already hit two fast drives, bunt the ball back as soft and short as you can right off the bounce. He will have to come in and barely get it, then you can tee away on the ball and hit it by him with speed or hookshot. You can also suddenly quit giving him spin and take pace off the ball, then he will be too far back, he will put those into the net. NL, you did that too him a few times and it worked great - got you out of the rally that favored him.

Player M thrives off determined hell-bent attackers, the very Rambo type like me who want to kill right away with force. He is adaptive enough and has excellent touch and a proven way to win. You play into his game and it can be over, even if you are 100-200 points higher rated. You play into his strengths and your normal advantages are neutralized and you dig your own grave trying to over-power into a wall.
 
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