Pips in V/S pips out

braithey · Jan 28, 2014

Lorre said:
But we don't need inverted players to validate our approach to the game. When playing pips/anti against each other you still have a match with long rallies. Besides, a modern defender has an attacking side (even two if you count twiddling) that can be used to play a defense-offense match. If any it makes the game longer and more exciting than two inverted players playing sets in which the point is already over after the third ball exchange.

I accept your point about longer rallies but there is a reason that the best players in the world are offensive and not defensive and that is because offensive play is highest evolution of our sport at the moment. Even modern defenders, as a style, need something to defend against and whilst I accept this may be a philosophical point watching a defender defend against another defender is hardly the most mouth watering prospect.

I do agree that a great attacker versus a great defender is a good watch but so is attacker against attacker.

I play at veterans local, city and occasionally national level (although national is a bit above me yet) and the number of players who use pips/anti is incredible most just want to stop attackers from playing which is frustrating because players of my standard pay to travel and play and want to enjoy the sport. But when a tournament costs me about £60 plus travel and accommodation and when I turn up to play and encounter players whose main focus is to stop me playing I question whether it is worthwhile making the effort. I am sure you will say as other posters have said practise more but with work and family commitments thats not always easy to find the time or the pips/anti players to practise against.

Tinykin · Jan 29, 2014

@brathey
I feel your pain.
Win or lose against pips or anti player, I rarely enjoy the match.

ttmonster · Jan 29, 2014

Thats the point guys, try to start enjoying the match and you will start winning , this is my experience. Playing against pips out is more chess and less karate

Tinykin said:
@brathey
I feel your pain.
Win or lose against pips or anti player, I rarely enjoy the match.

Lorre · Jan 29, 2014

Tinykin said:
@brathey
I feel your pain.
Win or lose against pips or anti player, I rarely enjoy the match.

braithey said:
I accept your point about longer rallies but there is a reason that the best players in the world are offensive and not defensive and that is because offensive play is highest evolution of our sport at the moment. Even modern defenders, as a style, need something to defend against and whilst I accept this may be a philosophical point watching a defender defend against another defender is hardly the most mouth watering prospect.

I do agree that a great attacker versus a great defender is a good watch but so is attacker against attacker.

I play at veterans local, city and occasionally national level (although national is a bit above me yet) and the number of players who use pips/anti is incredible most just want to stop attackers from playing which is frustrating because players of my standard pay to travel and play and want to enjoy the sport. But when a tournament costs me about £60 plus travel and accommodation and when I turn up to play and encounter players whose main focus is to stop me playing I question whether it is worthwhile making the effort. I am sure you will say as other posters have said practise more but with work and family commitments thats not always easy to find the time or the pips/anti players to practise against.

Well, your emotions and braithey's world view say it all... But it's not because you feel frustrated and want to rationalize that feeling with an evolutionary theory, everybody (including defensive players) feel and see it that way. If you stop playing because of "junk players", then it's you who stops playing. It's not a pips/anti player fault you stop playing, let alone he should feel guilty about you stopping playing. It's like ttmonster says: it's more of a chess game. If you don't like that aspect of the game, then (1) you'll be in the lower segments of the game forever and (2) please pick another sport because this one, in all its aspects, will certainly not satisfy you. If you still want to play this sport, then stop complaining and start training. If you don't have time to train, then again that's not the fault of the "junk player": that's you and your priority list.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 29, 2014

I have to be honest, I don't get why it is not fun for some people to play against pips. Each ball is different. You need to read the spin on each ball. The degree of variation is so different from when you are playing against someone who has smooth on both sides. It makes the whole game different. It makes you have to pay attention and use your brain a lot more. I have to say, win or lose, I like that.

Is that why people have a problem playing against pips: they want to go on AUTOPILOT and NOT USE THEIR BRAINS?

Come on. Getting good at playing against pips is a fun challenge. If you are missing shots that you thought should have been easy, if they go long, if they go into the net, it means you were not paying attention well enough and misread the spin. This is the central thing that serve and receive is about: reading the spin. All of a sudden, when facing a good pips player, you have to do that on every ball. More challenge, more fun.

braithey · Jan 29, 2014

Lorre said:
Well, your emotions and braithey's world view say it all... But it's not because you feel frustrated and want to rationalize that feeling with an evolutionary theory, everybody (including defensive players) feel and see it that way. If you stop playing because of "junk players", then it's you who stops playing. It's not a pips/anti player fault you stop playing, let alone he should feel guilty about you stopping playing. It's like ttmonster says: it's more of a chess game. If you don't like that aspect of the game, then (1) you'll be in the lower segments of the game forever and (2) please pick another sport because this one, in all its aspects, will certainly not satisfy you. If you still want to play this sport, then stop complaining and start training. If you don't have time to train, then again that's not the fault of the "junk player": that's you and your priority list.

Firstly where did the phrase junk players come from? I never referred to pips/anti players as junk.
Secondly I never said that pips/anti players should stop playing the way they play or that they should feel sorry for me
Thirdly I never said I would stop playing but I do question whether it is worth the expense and time to enter competitions against these type of players.
And finally yes I do have priorities in my life and believe it or not my wife, daughter and job come much higher up the list than table tennis. Remember also that the vast majority of local and regional leagues are made up from players, like me, who pay and play, so we can enjoy it. We will never earn a living from playing or win any international recognition for our efforts this being the case once the enjoyment of playing has been eroded then there will be some who walk away from the sport.

braithey · Jan 29, 2014

UpSideDownCarl said:
I have to be honest, I don't get why it is not fun for some people to play against pips. Each ball is different. You need to read the spin on each ball. The degree of variation is so different from when you are playing against someone who has smooth on both sides. It makes the whole game different. It makes you have to pay attention and use your brain a lot more. I have to say, win or lose, I like that.

Is that why people have a problem playing against pips: they want to go on AUTOPILOT and NOT USE THEIR BRAINS?

Come on. Getting good at playing against pips is a fun challenge. If you are missing shots that you thought should have been easy, if they go long, if they go into the net, it means you were not paying attention well enough and misread the spin. This is the central thing that serve and receive is about: reading the spin. All of a sudden, when facing a good pips player, you have to do that on every ball. More challenge, more fun.

The auto pilot point is very valid in my opinion and that is what I think I am guilty of doing. However I would also say that in some cases the effect of pips is disproportionate to the effort put in by the player and I believe that is why some attacking players (myself included) feel frustrated and angry when we have lost.
At times there seems little reward for taking risks and trying to be positive in your approach and play

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 29, 2014

Braithey, you have made a few points that are decently valid for your scenario. The first one is that if you go to a tournament and lose, it can be frustrating. If you are going to tournaments to win, this will often be the case, especially if you end up playing against players who are higher rated than you. But losing does not have too much to do with what is on the other player's racket or their choice of style. Now, if you lose to a smooth player and are not frustrated, and then you lose to a pips player and are frustrated, it really just means that you do need to learn how to play better against pips players.

So, it may not be worth it to you to travel and pay to play in tournaments.

And having priorities that come long before Table Tennis is definitely valid.

But, in addressing the issue of pips players and getting frustrated when playing them, it is probably that you don't have enough experience playing them. Is it worth figuring out how to get that experience? I am not sure. But, if you like the game and want to improve, then it definitely is.

The first thing that you should know is, even if you don't see and understand it, it takes skill and technique to use a pips or antitspin setup. When a pips player makes one ball dead, and the next ball heavy backspin, they have done something with their racket that you may have missed.

Here are some examples of things that could go wrong. You are trying to rip a ball that looks like mild backspin and it is actually dead and the ball flies long. You are trying to loop backspin and it turns out to be topspin and the ball jumps off your racket and flies way long. You are trying to attack topspin and it turns out to be dead or backspin and your ball goes into the net. You think the backspin is heavy and it turns out to be light and you hit the ball long. You think the backspin is light and it turns out to be heavy and you hit the ball into the net. You think it is backspin and it turns out to be topspin and you are just nowhere near the table as the ball flies up.

Any of those things have to with not paying attention to a few specific details. When playing someone who is using a defensive setup with pips or antispin, the first thing is, you have to know what rubber is on each side of his racket. That means you actually have to walk up and ask him if you can look at his racket and examine both rubbers. Look at the rubber, feel the rubber, look at the name of the rubber and the amount of sponge on each. Which was the black rubber, which the red. Then while playing you have to know what spin you put on the ball. Which color rubber the pips player used to contact the ball. You have to watch how the player contacts the ball: did he contact the ball directly or brush, did he contact hard or soft, how fast was the bat moving, how much sound did the racket make on contact, a lot or almost none. And you have to watch the flight of the ball to determine whether the ball has top, side, dead or backspin.

So if you are misreading the spin on the ball and missing your shots, then it is because you are actually doing the wrong thing for the ball that has come to you. If the pips player is able to keep the ball on the table and cause you to misread the spin and not get the ball on the table yourself, then they actually have more and better technique than you are realizing. Their technique is causing you to miss.

braithey said:
However I would also say that in some cases the effect of pips is disproportionate to the effort put in by the player and I believe that is why some attacking players (myself included) feel frustrated and angry when we have lost. At times there seems little reward for taking risks and trying to be positive in your approach and play

Trust me, this is a misperception. If you think that, you have not tried to switch back and forth from a smooth rubber to a pips rubber, and you do not understand the techniques you need to use to vary the spin with a pips rubber. I understand thinking this. But it is a misperception. As far as risks, if you are misreading the spin, you ARE taking risks because you are taking a swing without knowing what is actually on the ball.

A player who uses smooth rubbers and is good at playing against a pips player is not taking risks. He is using the right strokes and shot selection for the spins that are coming at him. That is why, as the spin varies, his shots still go on the table over and over again.

If you have trouble playing against pips players, and you have trouble finding pips players to train against, this is my recommendation. If you have a few friends who all play smooth and you train with them, get a defensive setup that has pips on one side and smooth on the other. It could be a very inexpensive setup and be a really useful one. You each take turns using the pips setup, trying to get used to it, and as you get better at using it, your training partners will get better at playing against it and vice versa. When you are all competent enough to help each other train against pips, you will start making some improvement against pips and start having fun playing against them. By learning to use them a little, you will start knowing what the guys you play against who have a pips setup are doing which will also help you improve at playing against them. You may also have an appreciation for how hard it actually is to twiddle and go from using pips to smooth. Think about if you were forced to play with a hardhat for 10 min. At first you would not be able to hit with it. Then you would start getting used to it. Then you would go back to your bat and you would not be able to get the ball on the table with your own racket for a few minutes. A pips player who twiddles has to be used to two very different setups at the same time.

It is really like serve and receive against a player who can disguise their serves well. At first you cannot tell the difference between his top, side, dead and backspin serves. Then you start seeing the contact and the bounce better. And then you stop being fooled as often. AND THAT PROCESS IS FUN. Going from not being able to do it to being decent at it, is fun. The same thing will happen if you figure out a way to practice against pips. The issue is not the rubber but your lack of experience against it. It is fair that this makes it frustrating. But, the answer would be to try and figure out a simple, cost effective way to gain more experience playing against pips.

As you practice against it, you will be able to see what is actually happening better and you will be fooled far less frequently. That process of reading things better and seeing things more accurately is really a valuable asset in the process of improving at the sport of table tennis.

braithey · Jan 29, 2014

UpSideDownCarl said:
Braithey, you have made a few points that are decently valid for your scenario. The first one is that if you go to a tournament and lose, it can be frustrating. If you are going to tournaments to win, this will often be the case, especially if you end up playing against players who are higher rated than you. But losing does not have too much to do with what is on the other player's racket or their choice of style. Now, if you lose to a smooth player and are not frustrated, and then you lose to a pips player and are frustrated, it really just means that you do need to learn how to play better against pips players.

So, it may not be worth it to you to travel and pay to play in tournaments.

And having priorities that come long before Table Tennis is definitely valid.

But, in addressing the issue of pips players and getting frustrated when playing them, it is probably that you don't have enough experience playing them. Is it worth figuring out how to get that experience? I am not sure. But, if you like the game and want to improve, then it definitely is.

The first thing that you should know is, even if you don't see and understand it, it takes skill and technique to use a pips or antitspin setup. When a pips player makes one ball dead, and the next ball heavy backspin, they have done something with their racket that you may have missed.

Here are some examples of things that could go wrong. You are trying to rip a ball that looks like mild backspin and it is actually dead and the ball flies long. You are trying to loop backspin and it turns out to be topspin and the ball jumps off your racket and flies way long. You are trying to attack topspin and it turns out to be dead or backspin and your ball goes into the net. You think the backspin is heavy and it turns out to be light and you hit the ball long. You think the backspin is light and it turns out to be heavy and you hit the ball into the net. You think it is backspin and it turns out to be topspin and you are just nowhere near the table as the ball flies up.

Any of those things have to with not paying attention to a few specific details. When playing someone who is using a defensive setup with pips or antispin, the first thing is, you have to know what rubber is on each side of his racket. That means you actually have to walk up and ask him if you can look at his racket and examine both rubbers. Look at the rubber, feel the rubber, look at the name of the rubber and the amount of sponge on each. Which was the black rubber, which the red. Then while playing you have to know what spin you put on the ball. Which color rubber the pips player used to contact the ball. You have to watch how the player contacts the ball: did he contact the ball directly or brush, did he contact hard or soft, how fast was the bat moving, how much sound did the racket make on contact, a lot or almost none. And you have to watch the flight of the ball to determine whether the ball has top, side, dead or backspin.

So if you are misreading the spin on the ball and missing your shots, then it is because you are actually doing the wrong thing for the ball that has come to you. If the pips player is able to keep the ball on the table and cause you to misread the spin and not get the ball on the table yourself, then they actually have more and better technique than you are realizing. Their technique is causing you to miss.

Trust me, this is a misperception. If you think that, you have not tried to switch back and forth from a smooth rubber to a pips rubber, and you do not understand the techniques you need to use to vary the spin with a pips rubber. I understand thinking this. But it is a misperception. As far as risks, if you are misreading the spin, you ARE taking risks because you are taking a swing without knowing what is actually on the ball.

A player who uses smooth rubbers and is good at playing against a pips player is not taking risks. He is using the right strokes and shot selection for the spins that are coming at him. That is why, as the spin varies, his shots still go on the table over and over again.

If you have trouble playing against pips players, and you have trouble finding pips players to train against, this is my recommendation. If you have a few friends who all play smooth and you train with them, get a defensive setup that has pips on one side and smooth on the other. It could be a very inexpensive setup and be a really useful one. You each take turns using the pips setup, trying to get used to it, and as you get better at using it, your training partners will get better at playing against it and vice versa. When you are all competent enough to help each other train against pips, you will start making some improvement against pips and start having fun playing against them. By learning to use them a little, you will start knowing what the guys you play against who have a pips setup are doing which will also help you improve at playing against them. You may also have an appreciation for how hard it actually is to twiddle and go from using pips to smooth. Think about if you were forced to play with a hardhat for 10 min. At first you would not be able to hit with it. Then you would start getting used to it. Then you would go back to your bat and you would not be able to get the ball on the table with your own racket for a few minutes. A pips player who twiddles has to be used to two very different setups at the same time.

It is really like serve and receive against a player who can disguise their serves well. At first you cannot tell the difference between his top, side, dead and backspin serves. Then you start seeing the contact and the bounce better. And then you stop being fooled as often. AND THAT PROCESS IS FUN. Going from not being able to do it to being decent at it, is fun. The same thing will happen if you figure out a way to practice against pips. The issue is not the rubber but your lack of experience against it. It is fair that this makes it frustrating. But, the answer would be to try and figure out a simple, cost effective way to gain more experience playing against pips.

As you practice against it, you will be able to see what is actually happening better and you will be fooled far less frequently. That process of reading things better and seeing things more accurately is really a valuable asset in the process of improving at the sport of table tennis.

Firstly let me say thank you for the time you have taken and the advice you have offered it is really appreciated.

I totally agree with your assessment in terms of lack of experience and knowledge being decisive factors in losing to pips/anti players.

However I do not agree that it is the same as losing to an inverted attacking style player because against this type of player I can express myself in the way I like to play. Part of the frustration is that when playing pips/anti players (without the knowledge or experience) I am drawn into a game that I do not want to play and get very little enjoyment from being involved in.

For me as a reasonable player a big part of the satisfaction/reward of playing are those moments when you are able to perform good strokes and create good rallies and if you are beaten so be it, but at least I will have given a good account of myself.

Against the pips/anti players not only am I beaten but I have not enjoyed it and I have not expressed or given a good account of myself.

I understand your point regarding the skill level of the opponent and I fully accept that point, but given the amount of understanding required regarding equipment and technique in order to be effective against these type of players I do still believe (rightly or wrongly) that the effect they derive from the equipment is disproportionate.

I have as you suggested ordered myself a blade with long pips - no sponge and an inverted attacking rubber on the other side and will give this a go in order to further my table tennis education. And this is I think a perfect illustration of my point how many pips/anti players need to buy an attacking set up and learn different strokes in order to be effective at playing their own style?

Anyway as I said earlier many thanks for the advice I will try to take some/all of it into practise and see whether I can adapt my game.

UpSideDownCarl · Jan 29, 2014

You are doing good things to enhance your skills in table tennis.

Two simple comments.

If you are able to take good shots and play in a way where you feel solid even if you lose when play a smooth rubber, two winged attacker, but are forced to play a different game against a pips player, it still simply boils down to education and experience against that medium. You don't have to learn how to play against pips. But it will enhance your knowledge and level and your experience against both pips and smooth players will be enhanced: you will have more fun against both, because, if you get better against pips players you WILL improve against loopers too. Whereas improving against loopers may not make you better against pips.

Second point: functionally, if a pips player has a smooth attacking rubber, they already do have TWO setups that they have to be used to.

But keep doing the work you are doing. When you have enough experience against pips so that you can play your game and take the strokes you want because you can read what is coming off their racket, you will be able to have fun playing against them for many rewarding reasons.

craniumburn · Jan 29, 2014

Here in our place we have a shortage of really good pips out player (both short and long pips). in my club there is one long pips player and he is in demand as a playing partner. most of us, if not all, likes playing with him cuz we like his style and he can play attack and defense really well. Only problem is we'd get beaten. He can tweedle and do variations that would confuse us and still we would try our luck to practice our game against him(its like banging your head on the wall...it is painful and the wall always wins). he combines close table blocks and chop blocks and chops far away from the table for variation. He can play backhand topspin when he tweedles but prefers to play mostly defense in the backhand. His forehand loops and counter spindrives are powerful. But playing with him is an advantage because whenever a visiting team comes over and they have a pips out player our team can deal with them using the experience gained from playing with him. Playing against players with different styles has advantages, even when losing, you get to test your skill and learn from the experience.

braithey · Jan 31, 2014

UpSideDownCarl said:
You are doing good things to enhance your skills in table tennis.

Two simple comments.

If you are able to take good shots and play in a way where you feel solid even if you lose when play a smooth rubber, two winged attacker, but are forced to play a different game against a pips player, it still simply boils down to education and experience against that medium. You don't have to learn how to play against pips. But it will enhance your knowledge and level and your experience against both pips and smooth players will be enhanced: you will have more fun against both, because, if you get better against pips players you WILL improve against loopers too. Whereas improving against loopers may not make you better against pips.

Second point: functionally, if a pips player has a smooth attacking rubber, they already do have TWO setups that they have to be used to.

But keep doing the work you are doing. When you have enough experience against pips so that you can play your game and take the strokes you want because you can read what is coming off their racket, you will be able to have fun playing against them for many rewarding reasons.

Got my long pimples and inverted rubber on an all round blade yesterday and went for a practise, very interesting results

First of all it is not easy to play with long pimples I don't yet know how much difference sponge makes I may try that later.

I started with them on my forehand and it took me 10 mins to realise I had to push all the way through the shot to get the ball over the net.

Secondly I played what I would describe as a forehand counter shot with the blade slightly open taking the ball at peak of bounce and suddenly the shot was going over the net by about 5-7 inches and landing about a foot from the end of the table. My playing partner was struggling to play consistently against this and top spinned off the table and into the net.

Thirdly when he returned effectively I found I could, dependent on how fast or spinney he played, either play the same shot or chop with heavy backspin.

My practise partner could not lift any of the chop returns even though the return travelled higher over the net they did not travel as deeply.

And lastly when he started to play touch from the chop returns on a number of occasions I was able to step in and play a backhand topspin with the inverted rubber. I also, to my surprise, found that I could loop with the long pips which blew my mind.

This has been a really good experience I must concur with Carl and the other posters who said playing with pips is a distinct yet different skill, from one practise session I can see it requires different skills and a different philosophy and approach toward the game.

I am not sure how much this will help me with my game against pips/anti players, too early to say as yet, but I feel that my understanding has already increased and that in my opinion is a good starting point.

Lorre · Jan 31, 2014

braithey said:
Firstly where did the phrase junk players come from? I never referred to pips/anti players as junk.
Secondly I never said that pips/anti players should stop playing the way they play or that they should feel sorry for me
Thirdly I never said I would stop playing but I do question whether it is worth the expense and time to enter competitions against these type of players.
And finally yes I do have priorities in my life and believe it or not my wife, daughter and job come much higher up the list than table tennis. Remember also that the vast majority of local and regional leagues are made up from players, like me, who pay and play, so we can enjoy it. We will never earn a living from playing or win any international recognition for our efforts this being the case once the enjoyment of playing has been eroded then there will be some who walk away from the sport.

Firstly a name is just a name: nothing to seek something behind.
Secondly I ask myself the same question, but vice versa: why play against players who never appreciate the skill you put into it (and some even start to insult you - no kidding - because they don't have the necessary technique to at least play a game against you)? This happened yesterday and one of the two insulting player was a LP player himself!
If TT is not high in your priority list (at least not as high as your wife and child), then that's understandable, but it's still a choice you make. No one else has to carry the consequences of that, except yourself.

Carl is right and sums up a great deal of wisdom.

Some comments on your latter posts:

if you can't express yourself in a satisfying way against a pips player, then that's not his fault, but your lack of technique/strategy/spin reading against those players.

I myself can train against as many pips as I want (as a LP player myself), even against the feared DTecs (with and without sponge) and all I can say is that the effect of different pips starts to be same to me, probably because of the experience I have against them. That doesn't mean I win the game against the pips player: that's something different. It means I don't easily get fooled by them. In competition this translates in a flawless victory serie against pips players (and I encountered a lot of them, +-10 if not more) and this as a LP and defender myself.

If you're going to add sponge to your pips, things will become more complicated and things will get more technical.
If your practice partners have so much problems with the pips, then this only confirms Carl's analysis of the situation and my thoughts about it.

braithey · Jan 31, 2014

Hi Lorre,
Having read your last post I am not really sure that I fully understand the points you are making.

On the junk players comment I just wanted to make it clear that I have not referred to pips/anti players in such a negative way.
Personally I am not hoping for appreciation from my opponent regarding my style or performance what I seek is the self satisfaction of performing to the best level my ability allows.

I understand totally that the amount of time I put into training and playing table tennis is my decision and I never asked anyone to carry the consequence of that fact. I am also aware that my satisfaction from playing is my issue which I have been honest and frank about in previous posts.

I think in summary that the issues we have discussed in this post are dependent upon our individual perspective and playing style, experience and knowledge and as an individual you and others who play pips/anti will have to accept that there is a lot of frustration from players who view pips/anti players in a negative light.

craniumburn · Jan 31, 2014

human nature... people tend to dislike things they cant figure out. instead of putting the effort to understand something they cant figure out, they tend to shut it out and feel hostile towards it. If you lose to a pips out player it means you still lack some skills(against playing pips out players) and needs to practice more. It is your limitation and you need to overcome it to be a complete player...just my 2 cents

Lorre · Jan 31, 2014

braithey said:
Hi Lorre,
Having read your last post I am not really sure that I fully understand the points you are making.

On the junk players comment I just wanted to make it clear that I have not referred to pips/anti players in such a negative way.
Personally I am not hoping for appreciation from my opponent regarding my style or performance what I seek is the self satisfaction of performing to the best level my ability allows.

I understand totally that the amount of time I put into training and playing table tennis is my decision and I never asked anyone to carry the consequence of that fact. I am also aware that my satisfaction from playing is my issue which I have been honest and frank about in previous posts.

I think in summary that the issues we have discussed in this post are dependent upon our individual perspective and playing style, experience and knowledge and as an individual you and others who play pips/anti will have to accept that there is a lot of frustration from players who view pips/anti players in a negative light.

Well, appreciation might not be the good word. It's more a matter of respect towards the opponent and his/her style, a style that is the extension of the person (physically/mentally) he/she is.

You are right about the frustration. But accepting it... No. The frustration is irrational and the attitude of those players is discriminatory.

braithey · Jan 31, 2014

Lorre said:
Well, appreciation might not be the good word. It's more a matter of respect towards the opponent and his/her style, a style that is the extension of the person (physically/mentally) he/she is.

You are right about the frustration. But accepting it... No. The frustration is irrational and the attitude of those players is discriminatory.

You say it is irrational to feel frustrated, and I hope you will excuse me for saying this, but this illustrates that you don't really understand the issue.

Frustration is an emotional response, rationality is cognitive (Thinking, logic etc)

You seem to be saying that players should not be frustrated by their inability to compete with or beat pips/anti players but this is simply never going to happen because as human beings we are driven by our emotions. Every decision you make and every action you take is based on emotions.

Would it be fair to say that you are frustrated by the response of certain players to you and your style of play?
Does it make you angry when they fail to show you the respect you think you deserve?

If we are to be totally honest with each other much of the problems around this issue are driven by our own ego's.

When I lose to pips/anti player I often feel angry because these type of players due to their style, skill, knowledge and experience have an ability to inflict a heavy defeat and make you look incompetent on the table. This anger can lead to players looking for excuses as to why they have lost in order to placate their own ego's

The same is true for pips/anti players when their opponent shows a lack of respect for their skill. The ego kicks in and the animosity begins.

Lorre · Jan 31, 2014

braithey said:
You say it is irrational to feel frustrated, and I hope you will excuse me for saying this, but this illustrates that you don't really understand the issue.

Frustration is an emotional response, rationality is cognitive (Thinking, logic etc)

You seem to be saying that players should not be frustrated by their inability to compete with or beat pips/anti players but this is simply never going to happen because as human beings we are driven by our emotions. Every decision you make and every action you take is based on emotions.

Would it be fair to say that you are frustrated by the response of certain players to you and your style of play?
Does it make you angry when they fail to show you the respect you think you deserve?

If we are to be totally honest with each other much of the problems around this issue are driven by our own ego's.

When I lose to pips/anti player I often feel angry because these type of players due to their style, skill, knowledge and experience have an ability to inflict a heavy defeat and make you look incompetent on the table. This anger can lead to players looking for excuses as to why they have lost in order to placate their own ego's

The same is true for pips/anti players when their opponent shows a lack of respect for their skill. The ego kicks in and the animosity begins.

I understand the situation (as a human being I can also feel frustration), but I also understand that that emotion is often more than not displaced.

When I say an emotion is irrational, I mean the emotion is not appropiate for the situation. For example, fear can be irrational when you fear an innocent house spider, but rational when you see a lion running towards you. The same is true for frustration: you feel frustrated in a situation in which frustration has no place. You can feel disappointed, angry towards oneself,... But frustration has no function in this type of situation: it's even counterproductive. It might surprise you, but what we call an emotion isn't all feeling and nothing rationality, but a sublime interaction of the two. For example, you assess unconsciously the situation before feeling the arousal and unconsciously you need rationality to interpret the arousal you're feeling.

If you believe all human beings are driven by emotions, then that's true. But not only by their emotions... Mostly a subtle mix of emotion and ratio.

I initially felt frustrated and angry towards those players last night, but rationally I knew I won the game and they lost it and their reaction was because of the loss. My anger/frustration turned into pity and even pride.

If you believe people act only or even for the most part according to their emotions/ego, then that's a world view you have and that will influence your perception in a whole lot of situations and even justify your own emotions. I never could hold that world view because I saw too many discrepancies in the world. Although I believe a significant part of human action is directed by emotions, I also believe this is not all to a human being.

Pips in V/S pips out

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