says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
You have this wrong. Your conception of this is flawed enough that I can use the term “incorrect.” I will see if I can make a video of what it is that you are conceiving of incorrectly.
The degree of straightening does not have to be what I said. But it helps. Timo Boll’s arm angle goes from bent to more bent. But he gets a ton of speed from the whip action of his forearm. Not sure most people could generate that racket speed using his technique. But he is still primarily using his forearm and wrist.
And if you start with the arm very bent and end with the arm bent at the same angle, you can get a few things happening:
1) Way less racket speed.
2) Way more tension in your stroke: you cannot keep the elbow joint stable (bent and maintaining the same angle) without A LOT of unwanted tension. That tension also slows you down.
2) A much higher risk of a shoulder injury. [emoji2]
This is just biomechanics. And it has everything to do with why, on skateboards and rollerblades, big wheels top out at a higher end speed but little wheels accelerate faster. Which is also why, for someone who skates on ramps, and all your speed comes from a very short period of time where you are accelerating on the transitions of the ramp (the curved part) you want little wheels and will get more acceleration, speed and height with those little wheels. Whereas, in speed skating you would want bigger wheels because momentary acceleration is not as important as overall top range speed over a much longer duration of time.
It is also why racing cyclists use large wheels and the guys who ride bmx bikes, whether on ramps or on dirt terrain, use much smaller wheels.
Also, in figure skating, when you see a skater spin, when the arms are reaching out there torso will spin slower. As they pull their arms in, the speed of their torso spinning, will increase dramatically.
Shorter levers accelerate faster. Larger levers top out at a higher top end speed but it takes longer to get to that top speed. From a mechanical standpoint you want to utilize all three levers to maximize racket speed:
1) shoulder,
2) elbow and
3) wrist.
Based on biomechanics:
1) The wrist can accelerate your racket fastest. But the top speed is lowest.
2) The forearm snap from the elbow joint accelerates your racket faster than your shoulder and slower than your wrist. The top speed from the elbow/forearm is faster than the wrist and slower than the shoulder.
3) The shoulder has the slowest acceleration of the three joints and the fastest top speed.
Remember, a TT ball is very light. The overall force behind the ball is not as important as with a tennis ball or a baseball. However, the general mechanics will be the same.l
In tennis you have a much longer time between shots for recovery. And in baseball you don’t need to worry about resetting at all. So, in TT, with the light ball and the need for a fast reset speed, the most important issue is getting the racket to move as fast as possible as in as short a period of time as possible.
Some things that will will produce a fast, spinny, powerful shot in TT would need a bigger movement from the body, hips, core, legs. In TT the body movement: the weight transfer and core rotation are much smaller but they are timed more precisely to pop into the ball on contact. A larger, less precise body movement like how much a baseball player uses his hips and weight transfer would throw a TT player totally off balance.
You want to use the hips and core. But the timing for them to pop into the ball is the more important part since the ball is so light. So, the body is important. But your image for that is also a little inefficient because you are thinking it should be larger than it should.
If you keep your arm all the way straight through the whole stroke, the racket will move a little faster than if you keep your elbow bent at the same angle for the whole stroke.
If you keep your upper arm from moving at all and just bend and straighten your elbow, your hand and racket will be moving faster in the time for the stroke, than with either of the previous two.
If the shoulder moves the upper arm, so the elbow moves forward and up about 1 foot, and the elbow joint goes from almost straight to that 70° angle I talked about, you will get the racket to move exponentially faster in the same amount of time. In fact, in less time.
[BTW: if you watch NextLevel’s stroke frame by frame, he is doing what I described in this last stroke description. Despite having a joint disease that prevents him using his hips and core as much as many of us, his arm mechanics are very high level.]
The general details are that, when you are closer to the table you use a more compact stroke with less upper arm because you need to reset faster. When you are a little father back, you can use more upper arm. But you would still want to use your forearm.
What often gets called a European loop is a loop that uses mostly forearm. Very good examples of this are Timo Boll and Michael Maze. If you watch in slow motion and go frame by frame, you can see how much they use the movement of the forearm from the elbow joint to get such good racket acceleration.
Anyway, I will try and make a video that breaks this stuff down in visual form.
For now, notice how NextLevel’s racket moves much faster than yours even though he is trying half as hard. Then look at the angle at his elbow on the backswing, the angle on contact and the angle at the end of the stroke.
Check what my arm does. Look for all those same details including racket speed.
Choose any pro with a decent FH and see, frame by frame, what they do.
Wang Hao is an example of a pro who often used a FH where his arm was straight and the elbow angle didn’t change so much. But it still changed some and his FH was nowhere near as good as so many other penholders. However, his BH was one of the best BHs of any kind ever and unquestionably the best RPB.
Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
The degree of straightening does not have to be what I said. But it helps. Timo Boll’s arm angle goes from bent to more bent. But he gets a ton of speed from the whip action of his forearm. Not sure most people could generate that racket speed using his technique. But he is still primarily using his forearm and wrist.
And if you start with the arm very bent and end with the arm bent at the same angle, you can get a few things happening:
1) Way less racket speed.
2) Way more tension in your stroke: you cannot keep the elbow joint stable (bent and maintaining the same angle) without A LOT of unwanted tension. That tension also slows you down.
2) A much higher risk of a shoulder injury. [emoji2]
This is just biomechanics. And it has everything to do with why, on skateboards and rollerblades, big wheels top out at a higher end speed but little wheels accelerate faster. Which is also why, for someone who skates on ramps, and all your speed comes from a very short period of time where you are accelerating on the transitions of the ramp (the curved part) you want little wheels and will get more acceleration, speed and height with those little wheels. Whereas, in speed skating you would want bigger wheels because momentary acceleration is not as important as overall top range speed over a much longer duration of time.
It is also why racing cyclists use large wheels and the guys who ride bmx bikes, whether on ramps or on dirt terrain, use much smaller wheels.
Also, in figure skating, when you see a skater spin, when the arms are reaching out there torso will spin slower. As they pull their arms in, the speed of their torso spinning, will increase dramatically.
Shorter levers accelerate faster. Larger levers top out at a higher top end speed but it takes longer to get to that top speed. From a mechanical standpoint you want to utilize all three levers to maximize racket speed:
1) shoulder,
2) elbow and
3) wrist.
Based on biomechanics:
1) The wrist can accelerate your racket fastest. But the top speed is lowest.
2) The forearm snap from the elbow joint accelerates your racket faster than your shoulder and slower than your wrist. The top speed from the elbow/forearm is faster than the wrist and slower than the shoulder.
3) The shoulder has the slowest acceleration of the three joints and the fastest top speed.
Remember, a TT ball is very light. The overall force behind the ball is not as important as with a tennis ball or a baseball. However, the general mechanics will be the same.l
In tennis you have a much longer time between shots for recovery. And in baseball you don’t need to worry about resetting at all. So, in TT, with the light ball and the need for a fast reset speed, the most important issue is getting the racket to move as fast as possible as in as short a period of time as possible.
Some things that will will produce a fast, spinny, powerful shot in TT would need a bigger movement from the body, hips, core, legs. In TT the body movement: the weight transfer and core rotation are much smaller but they are timed more precisely to pop into the ball on contact. A larger, less precise body movement like how much a baseball player uses his hips and weight transfer would throw a TT player totally off balance.
You want to use the hips and core. But the timing for them to pop into the ball is the more important part since the ball is so light. So, the body is important. But your image for that is also a little inefficient because you are thinking it should be larger than it should.
If you keep your arm all the way straight through the whole stroke, the racket will move a little faster than if you keep your elbow bent at the same angle for the whole stroke.
If you keep your upper arm from moving at all and just bend and straighten your elbow, your hand and racket will be moving faster in the time for the stroke, than with either of the previous two.
If the shoulder moves the upper arm, so the elbow moves forward and up about 1 foot, and the elbow joint goes from almost straight to that 70° angle I talked about, you will get the racket to move exponentially faster in the same amount of time. In fact, in less time.
[BTW: if you watch NextLevel’s stroke frame by frame, he is doing what I described in this last stroke description. Despite having a joint disease that prevents him using his hips and core as much as many of us, his arm mechanics are very high level.]
The general details are that, when you are closer to the table you use a more compact stroke with less upper arm because you need to reset faster. When you are a little father back, you can use more upper arm. But you would still want to use your forearm.
What often gets called a European loop is a loop that uses mostly forearm. Very good examples of this are Timo Boll and Michael Maze. If you watch in slow motion and go frame by frame, you can see how much they use the movement of the forearm from the elbow joint to get such good racket acceleration.
Anyway, I will try and make a video that breaks this stuff down in visual form.
For now, notice how NextLevel’s racket moves much faster than yours even though he is trying half as hard. Then look at the angle at his elbow on the backswing, the angle on contact and the angle at the end of the stroke.
Check what my arm does. Look for all those same details including racket speed.
Choose any pro with a decent FH and see, frame by frame, what they do.
Wang Hao is an example of a pro who often used a FH where his arm was straight and the elbow angle didn’t change so much. But it still changed some and his FH was nowhere near as good as so many other penholders. However, his BH was one of the best BHs of any kind ever and unquestionably the best RPB.
Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
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