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    1. Top | #1
      brokenball is offline
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      Why waiting for back spin balls drop before looping back works.

      Actually, hitting back spin balls at the peak makes the most sense from a physics point of view. There is a better line of sight to the other side of the table. However, there are problems that occur because we are human and not perfect. After I watched videos of others and me hitting too many back spin balls into the net I realized what was happening. It was a timing problem and a stroke problem caused by the timing problem.

      The problem with the stroke is that we tend to rotate our arms around our shoulders. This means that even if we start with the paddle low we tend to rotate our arm so the paddle is moving forward before it moves up. The problem is that if the ball is contacted while not moving up enough the ball will go into the net. What I found myself doing, and see others doing wrong, is not waiting for the ball. This causes people to want to swing forward and not up causing the ball to drop into the net.

      It really isn't the drop part of waiting for the ball to drop that is important. It is the waiting part so you don't start the swing with the paddle moving forward instead of up that makes a difference. When I screw up I think that I "scooped it" instead of "looped it" because my paddle makes a scooping type of motion ( an arc when viewed from the side ) instead of moving the paddle straight line mostly up ( when viewed from the side ). When I review my video I can see that I didn't wait and my paddle moved too much forward and not up enough. I see this mistake all the time. I make this mistake when I get tired or too anxious to wait. I need to think "wait for it" then swing.

      My point is that bad timing will result in bad strokes.
      I don't ever see much discussion about timing.

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    3. Top | #2
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      I agree that timing is important! In my opinion there are some mistakes my players do regarding looping on backspin:
      To closed racket angle. When looping at backspin, you want to have an open racket angle.
      Looping to much forward. When looping at backspin, it is important to let the arm go down and loop up.
      Do the above correct, but no acceleration. When looping at backspin you need to have a lot more explosive motion compared to looping on topspin and try to accelerate with the underarm.

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    5. Top | #3
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      I let it drop sometimes cos this is usually when the ball is off the table and allows you get get the arm lower and position myself better. I also may want to play the loop low over the net, so letting it drop lets me do this easier.

    6. Top | #4
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      I have a theory. To generate the spin, you need to maximize the speed of the racket relative to the ball at the contact. The faster the ball and the racket are moving towards each other, the more the spin. The trick with the backspin is that you have to spin it upwards. If the ball is falling downwards at the point of contact, it adds to the overall speed of the contact and helps to generate more spin. If the ball is not moving downwards, you don't get this extra help from the ball's speed.

      Just think about counterlooping a very fast ball. To cancel out the existing spin and generate your own, you just need to brush over the ball slightly, the speed of the ball will do the work for you because the contact will be very fast anyway. The same with the backspin except that you spin upwards rather than forwards and you don't cancel out the spin but rather change its direction.

      I don't know if it makes sense.

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    8. Top | #5
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Several different loops to go for slow, medium, fast... all require an explosion. Each has a different impact.

      For the slow loop with heavy spin, it is easier to let the ball drop. More time too see the ball.

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    10. Top | #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by brokenball View Post
      Actually, hitting back spin balls at the peak makes the most sense from a physics point of view. There is a better line of sight to the other side of the table. However, there are problems that occur because we are human and not perfect.
      It's not so much human imperfection (unless you count not having a variable height and proportions as imperfect).

      In terms of physics, more than just the ball trajectory matters. The body physics matter too.

    11. Top | #7
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      At what phase to meet a back spinned ball depends on many factors - the incomming ball characteristics /spin, speed, trajectory/, what we want to do with this ball /to loop it or to attack it with a sharper topspin/, limitation factors /short over the table, falling near the edge, too high, too low/. Physics as a science is always working, but the decision at what phase and how to hit the ball depends on all these factors. In some ocasions you may choose either to hit early or to wait dropping, in other ocasions you don't have choise. And the result depends on the level of mastery and experience.

    12. Top | #8
      Takkyu_wa_inochi is online now
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      If I play a chopper I will try to time just before the top of the bounce after a chop. Less spin at this time and less sensitive to whether it’s (heavy) backspin or knuckle ball

    13. Top | #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Takkyu_wa_inochi View Post
      If I play a chopper I will try to time just before the top of the bounce after a chop. Less spin at this time and less sensitive to whether it’s (heavy) backspin or knuckle ball
      How can there be less spin? Does it magically appear out of thin air after the top of the bounce?

      Generally, if you want be aggressive you time the shot early, there will be more spin but the ball is higher. If you want to play it safe you let the ball drop. More time, less spin but the ball is lower.
      Last edited by hipnotic; 11-11-2018 at 01:42 PM.

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    15. Top | #10
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      This is a bit over-simplified. But this is a small part of the details:

      1) When the ball is at the top of the bounce, particularly if the top of the bounce is the height of the net or a little higher, then you can loop forward with more pace but you still need to aim to clear the net.
      2) Contacting after the top of the bounce as the ball is dropping makes it a little easier to execute a slower spinny loop with a lot of arc.
      3) Either shot can be done by a skilled player with several different timings. But if you are feeling rushed and pressed for time, that will usually result in more mistakes.
      4) Whether contacting on the rise, the top of the bounce or after, if you are set and ready for the shot early enough so you can wait and take the shot with your timing, you will be more likely to perform the shot well.
      5) Most of the coaches I know spend a lot of time talking about timing and if you are too late, too early, rushing, letting the ball get behind you, etc.
      6) If someone is taking the ball at the top of the bounce and the stroke mechanics brokenball is mentioning occur where the the arm goes too forward and the blade face closes too much, then, I think the fix may be: knees more bent and weight more forward. Michael Landers described this to me as: "pretend there is a low fence in front of your legs and you are trying to lean your upper body forward, past the fence to take the ball in front of you." Now getting your weight forward like that is not easy and as we get older and are not in top physical condition, staying low and keeping the weight forward gets harder and harder. And I am no spring chicken. So I find myself not low enough and not forward enough most of the time.
      Spin Everything.

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    17. Top | #11
      Atas Newton is offline
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      What ronz91 said. If you want your loop low, you let the ball drop. You need the arc for safety, for good percentages so if you take it earlier the ball's automatically higher. Obviously you can still hit it low, but there'll be less spin, more speed and more errors. Still a viable options in many situations.
      Last edited by Atas Newton; 11-11-2018 at 03:20 PM.
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    18. Top | #12
      Takkyu_wa_inochi is online now
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      no this is a misconception. I train a lot with choppers and with good coaches. its much better to try to get the ball early. of course, you need to have a quick footwork else you just end up messing. you don't need power just keep an a quite closed bat angle, and loop it safely. wait for the easier ball to put power on it

      of course you can time the ball later, but its less efficient. The guy has more time , the ball is losing spin which is good, but also pace, which makes it more difficult. It gives also too much time to the opponent. You want to put pressure on the other guy by taking the ball earlier and moving him
      Last edited by Takkyu_wa_inochi; 11-11-2018 at 03:48 PM.

    19. Top | #13
      langel is offline
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      Ok, one finds it better to take it early, other likes to take it dropping.
      But still it depends on the ocasion. You can't wait dropping low balls over the table.
      Fast well chopped slices with long but low ant flat trajectory do not "drop" - they fly horizontally after rebounce.
      The decision to lift the ball with a slow loop, high or low, short or long, or to sttack it with a sharper topspin, depends on the ocasion too, and on this decision depends how you should hit the ball and what the movement should be. Depending on the rubbers and the situation sometimes an aggresive power return will not differ from the attack to top or no spin incoming balls, i.e. in some occasions power is the pravailing decider. In other ocasions its the different equation between power, swing, upword and forword ratio, ball area of contact.
      So there is no worse or better - its a matter of the specifics of the picture of the moment.

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    21. Top | #14
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      First off all the question by the OP is why it works ... well it works because the longer you let the ball drop the less spin it has and you are basically looping up so you have a greater window of timing the ball without a significant change in the angle of the paddle and the stroke ... and every other option works as well if you have the footwork,technique and touch to execute it .. ... in fact as Takyu said .. its actually easier on the body if you can get there in time to take the ball early because you can use the incoming power, however the window of timing is smaller and the sensitiveness to the angle of the swing is more and you also need to have the footwork and anticipation to be able to execute it ...
      Lets go Spinny Looping !

    22. Top | #15
      brokenball is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      First off all the question by the OP is why it works ... well it works because the longer you let the ball drop the less spin it has
      This is insignificant. I am sure you have seen balls spinning a half for half a minute. How much do you think the spin will be reduced after a small fraction of a second?

      and you are basically looping up so you have a greater window of timing the ball without a significant change in the angle of the paddle and the stroke ... and every other option works as well if you have the footwork,technique and touch to execute it .. ... in fact as Takyu said .. its actually easier on the body if you can get there in time to take the ball early
      This is OK as long as you don't rush or reach forward at the expense of swinging up to make contact with the ball.
      Usually you have a lot of time to get into position when returning chopped balls. They don't go that fast.

      Another thing I forgot to mention is that back spin balls tend to stall or slow down when the hit the table due to the back spin. This also will cause one to swing forward too much trying to get to the ball.

      Again, the main point I am trying to make is that whether or not the ball drops is not as important as not rushing the shot and stroking forward to meet the ball instead of up to counter the spin. I see too many people, and me, rushing the stroke.

    23. Top | #16
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      I'm with Takkyu on this one. Taking the ball earlier is better. Swinging how much forward or up depends on how heavy the backspin is, but you can usually swing forward except vs a chopper returning a spinny loop. Which for practical purposes in the US means 99.5% of the time swinging forward makes a better ball.

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    25. Top | #17
      langel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by brokenball View Post

      This is OK as long as you don't rush or reach forward at the expense of swinging up to make contact with the ball.
      Usually you have a lot of time to get into position when returning chopped balls. They don't go that fast.

      Another thing I forgot to mention is that back spin balls tend to stall or slow down when the hit the table due to the back spin. This also will cause one to swing forward too much trying to get to the ball.

      Again, the main point I am trying to make is that whether or not the ball drops is not as important as not rushing the shot and stroking forward to meet the ball instead of up to counter the spin. I see too many people, and me, rushing the stroke.
      Both yes and no.
      About speed - the chopped ball is slower than the top-spinned, but "slower" is a comparitive. In practice you may meet a chopper with faster slices than your smashes are.
      About the rush - in some ocasions its much better than the waiting.
      TT is a very multifactor game and fixing on strict recipes doesn't help.

    26. Top | #18
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      Okay .. I guess then you are not asking .. you just want to spread what you think is right .. fair enough.. carry on ...

    27. Top | #19
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      If your technique is correct you don't need explosive movement or anything. You can loop backspin with no effort at all, no wrist, no explosion, nothing, and it'll be very spinny too.
      Then once the technique is correct you can add speed and that.


      In my opinion the best stance for lifting backspin is a very low stance, both on backhand and forehand. That way you ensure the upward motion of the bat and a low arc over the net.
      Last edited by Lightzy; 11-11-2018 at 09:56 PM.

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    29. Top | #20
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Ghost Rider 5, to make a very spiny slow loop, one needs an explosive power transfer. One can make the power transfer LOOK real easy... Coach Hodges often refers to this as "Easy Power"

      To roll the ball, it takes control of a not so powerful swing timing and a lot of good touch.



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