Is ma long the GOAT ?

Forgot about the coach at CNG thanks for the correction NL.

tropical my GOAT is ML too.
It's just that some arguments against him are underdstandable, but not enough imo regarding his dominance and everyhing he has accomplished.

I also thought ML was the best ever before he won anything and I'm not alone. Richard Prause, a long time ITTF commentator, mentionned he felt like that when ML was still a teenager. NL in this forum has the same opinion if I read well. And I can recall a lot of people arguing that back in 2010-2013.
This proves that having a GOAT is also a subjective matter. NL mentionned the eye test and it may be an essential factor.
But ML also has a bunch of objective arguments going for him and that's why most people would pick him as the GOAT.

Also, ML's career is far from over.

My 2 cents : ML will win 2020 Olympics and get Silver at 2024 Olympics.
This may seem crazy but he's now 30 and looks still really fit.
Waldner was 35 at 2000 Olympics and ML has the passion and hunger to prolonge his career as far as he can.

My sweet lord I hope you're right

Luke James said:

My 2 cents : ML will win 2020 Olympics and get Silver at 2024 Olympics.
This may seem crazy but he's now 30 and looks still really fit.
Waldner was 35 at 2000 Olympics and ML has the passion and hunger to prolonge his career as far as he can.

Click to expand...

IMO, Ma Long is clearly the GOAT. The argument about his dominance is only due to the change of ball is flawed, ridiculous and silly. The first time plastic ball was used Zhang Jike took the world by defeating ML in WC and everyone predicted (even LGL) he will dominate the plastic ball era. Then Zhang began losing and plastic ball was the culprit. Everyone begins losing and they all pointed at one thing, the plastic ball.

Fans point out how players, who thrives on spin, like Xu Xin is not as effective as before. What they forgot is how Timo is getting even better in this plastic era; clearly busting the myth plastic ball isnt good for spin oriented players.

I'll say it now, nothing about the game change even with plastic ball. The top is still filled by the same players. Xu Xin still dominates against Europeans. Japan still lost to China and China still reigns ahead of everyone.

To conclude, the ball matters not at the top. The dominant will still dominant and the weak is still weak. Backhand opening is still the same. Watch Ma Long Zhang Jike back then, nothing too much different other than Ma Long has better consistency on his backhand now.

One of the most sober posts on this forum. I tip my hat.

ade14212 said:

IMO, Ma Long is clearly the GOAT. The argument about his dominance is only due to the change of ball is flawed, ridiculous and silly. The first time plastic ball was used Zhang Jike took the world by defeating ML in WC and everyone predicted (even LGL) he will dominate the plastic ball era. Then Zhang began losing and plastic ball was the culprit. Everyone begins losing and they all pointed at one thing, the plastic ball.

Fans point out how players, who thrives on spin, like Xu Xin is not as effective as before. What they forgot is how Timo is getting even better in this plastic era; clearly busting the myth plastic ball isnt good for spin oriented players.

I'll say it now, nothing about the game change even with plastic ball. The top is still filled by the same players. Xu Xin still dominates against Europeans. Japan still lost to China and China still reigns ahead of everyone.

To conclude, the ball matters not at the top. The dominant will still dominant and the weak is still weak. Backhand opening is still the same. Watch Ma Long Zhang Jike back then, nothing too much different other than Ma Long has better consistency on his backhand now.

Click to expand...

After losing to ZJK in the group stage of team at the National Games 2013,

http://sports.sohu.com/20130903/n385772673.shtml

　　“感觉很正常，毕竟是‘半退役’的状态了，能打成这样已经很不错了。”走下赛场的王皓很快调整好情绪，与记者半开玩笑的他显示出一名老队员应有的沉稳与淡定。

　　“也不能说继科是我的‘克星’，我们只是相互比较了解，而他比我更年轻，冲击力也更强，尤其是现在取得了大满贯，他的自信心就更强一些。”

Click to expand...

"It feels normal. After all, I'm "half-retired.' It's very good to be able to play like this." Wang Hao, who walked off the court, quickly adjusted his mood. His half-joking with the reporter showed the composure and calmness of a senior player.

"Can't say Jike is my 'Kryptonite,' we just know each other better, and he is younger than me, and the impact is stronger. Especially now that he has achieved the Grand Slam, his self-confidence is stronger.”

Thank Table Tennis God again I translated that passage...

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...02894&title=top-players-using-allwood#1002894

zeio said:

Thank god I translated that passage about ML's view on the significance of equipment on his technique.

ML's game transformed a lot between 2011 and 2015. Back around 2011 after his 2nd loss to WH, LGL urged ML to change his blade from composite to all-wood. QZJ said ML's game changed substantially as a result.

Click to expand...

NextLevel said:

Yeah - he went from beating almost everyone except his teammates to beating everyone including his teammates. Quite a substantial change. The ball change as well was probably under-estimated as well as a factor in that change. And of course, right now, he is using an ALC blade after the change to All wood. All radical changes.

Click to expand...

In "The Reform of Plastic Balls of Table Tennis:Countermeasures of China National Table Tennis Team" by Ding Song, it's stated ML and XX gained a significant advantage from the 40+(cellulose acetate) ball. Courtesy of Google Translate.

www.xml-data.org/SHTYXYXB/html/18a5de2f-7ba1-401e-b7da-6ac4f25196b6.htm

在改打乒乓塑料球的实践过程中,中国队却发现:随着球的弹跳力下降,一度被视为保守和落后的摆短技术,又重新发挥出巨大的实战作用。以马龙和许昕为例:过去摆不短和摆不住的球,现在竟然能够摆得又短又低,实战中占很大的优势。总教练刘国梁进行了及时的总结,并把它延伸至发球技术上。他指出:虽然乒乓塑料球的弹跳不足,却为发球和摆短技术的使用提供了很大的施展空间,即在发球加力摩擦的同时,运动员一定要利用身体、手上的下压力、泄力和忍力,将出手的速度加快,加大球的旋转,将球的弧线压低和将球“发软”,并以此提高发球的质量,这种方法同样适用于搓球。

这一实践过程使我们认识到:随着竞赛规则和运动器材的改革,训练和实战的需求也在相应地发生变化,形式和表现都会出现“轮回”:有些先进的技术因受到改革的制约,效果已大不如前,需要及时强化;而一些所谓的“过时”技术,因受到改革的刺激,又能够得到新生和发展。对于它们的认识、选择和使用,需要“审时酌势”和“因况制宜”。

...在球队适应新球时,蔡振华同志就及时指出:除了在击球方法上大力攻关外,还可以在运动器材上进行调整。以此理念为依据,中国队教练组认识到:马龙反手过去打的是国外套胶,优势是易于掌握,弊端是威胁不大;而打国产套胶的优势是击球的质量高,弊端是难以掌握和控制;鉴于马龙的训练刻苦,手感突出,改打国产套胶,不仅能够掌握,而且能提高击球质量,增进打法威胁,权衡下来利大于弊,因此在临近苏州乒乓球世锦赛的2个月前,教练组决定让马龙改打国产套胶,从而收到了意想不到的实战效果。在马龙的影响下,现在中国乒乓球队中已有一半队员都在进行这种尝试,同时也成为今后应对变革的一条可行之路。

...随着乒乓塑料球的改革,对方进攻的速度、力量和旋转也会相应地下降,这样就减轻了我方防御的压力,从而为积极攻防转换赢得机会[14]。以马龙为例:过去他的反手在对方进攻时,只是消极地平挡,现在对方攻球的质量下降,他就能够腾出手进行强势对抗；实战中他的对抗强度、防中转攻的机会和防御的质量,都得到了很大的提升,使得自身的打法更加全面、硬朗和强势。

Click to expand...

In the practice of changing the Ping Pong plastic ball, the Chinese team found that as the ball's bounce power decreased, it was once regarded as a conservative and backward short-swing technique, and it played a huge practical role. Take Malone and Xu Wei as an example: the ball that was not short and can't be swayed in the past can now be short and low, and it has a great advantage in actual combat. Head coach Liu Guoliang made a timely summary and extended it to the teeing skills. He pointed out that although the ping-pong plastic ball has insufficient bounce, it provides a lot of space for the use of the teeing and pendulum technology. That is, while the ball is applied and the friction is applied, the athlete must use the body and the hand to press down and vent. Force and endurance, speed up the shot, increase the rotation of the ball, lower the arc of the ball and "soften" the ball, and improve the quality of the serve. This method is also applicable to the ball.

This practical process has made us realize that with the reform of competition rules and sports equipment, the needs of training and actual combat have also changed accordingly, and there will be “reincarnation” in form and performance: some advanced technologies are subject to reforms. The effect is not as good as before, and it needs to be strengthened in time; and some so-called “outdated” technologies can be reborn and developed due to the stimulation of reform. For their understanding, selection and use, it is necessary to “review the situation” and “conditions”.

...When the team adapted to the new ball, Comrade Cai Zhenhua pointed out in time that in addition to vigorously tackling the method of hitting the ball, it can also be adjusted on the sports equipment. Based on this concept, the Chinese team coaching team realized that: Malone's backhand used to be the national coat glue, the advantage is easy to master, the drawback is that the threat is not big; and the advantage of playing the domestic rubber is the high quality of the hitting, the drawback is Difficult to master and control; in view of Malone's training hard work, the hand feels prominent, change the domestic rubber, not only can master, but also improve the quality of hitting, increase the threat of play, weigh the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, so near the Suzhou Table Tennis World Championships Two months ago, the coaching staff decided to let Malone switch to the domestic rubber, which received unexpected results. Under the influence of Malone, half of the Chinese table tennis team is now making such an attempt, and it has become a feasible way to cope with change in the future.

...With the reform of the ping pong plastic ball, the speed, strength and rotation of the opponent's attack will also decrease accordingly, thus reducing the pressure of our defense and thus winning opportunities for active offensive and defensive conversion [14]. Take Malone as an example: In the past, his backhand was only passively blocked when the opponent attacked. Now the quality of the opponent's attacking ball is declining, and he can free his hand for a strong confrontation; his combat strength, the chance of preventing the transfer attack and the defense in actual combat. The quality of the game has been greatly improved, making its play more comprehensive, tough and strong.

What about the disadvantages poly ball brought to ML's game? You're making it sound like the ball change was a blessing to ML and made him great. Which is kinda funny considering his records in the cell ball era.

Plastic ball or not, ML would have improved his BH and found a way to win in the end. Even ZJK knows that (refering to the 'lost island' question).
Haters would have find other excuses for his winnings, like ZJK haters did when he won his Grand Slam.

zeio said:

Thank Table Tennis God again I translated that passage...

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...02894&title=top-players-using-allwood#1002894

Click to expand...

I was trying to get my game right at this time so I know what the pros were telling me. I can't argue with people who have no clue what the ball changes did to the sport and who forget that Timo and Dima went through major adjustment periods to adapt to the 2 plastic balls. The common feature of both balls was less spin than celluloid which made blocking and countering easier. The first ball (cellulose acetate) didn't bounce well and favored powerful driving forehands. The second (ABS) which we use today was more consistent but still had less spin making Chiquita both easier and easier to counter.

Luke James said:

What about the disadvantages poly ball brought to ML's game? You're making it sound like the ball change was a blessing to ML and made him great. Which is kinda funny considering his records in the cell ball era.

Plastic ball or not, ML would have improved his BH and found a way to win in the end. Even ZJK knows that (refering to the 'lost island' question).
Haters would have find other excuses for his winnings, like ZJK haters did when he won his Grand Slam.

Click to expand...

In case you refuse to read what ML said,

　　2014年杜塞尔多夫世界杯，马龙与张继科苦战7局，最终3︰4败北。此后，不善改变的他决定更换用了多年的反手海绵。这个改变需要的不仅仅是勇气，也要承受器材改变带来的技术转变不适。“现在想想，如果不是那次（输球），我不会下决心更换器材，也可能就没有后来的我了。”马龙说。

Click to expand...

At the World Cup 2014 in Dusseldorf, after a grueling seven-gamer with ZJK, ML conceded at 3:4. Afterward, the old-school ML decided to switch out his long-standing backhand sponge. Not only did this change take courage, but it also gave rise to unease during the technical shift brought about by the equipment change. "Looking back, if it wasn't because of that (loss), I wouldn't have had the resolve to switch equipment, and probably there wouldn't have been the subsequent me." said Ma Long.

ade14212 said:

IMO, Ma Long is clearly the GOAT. The argument about his dominance is only due to the change of ball is flawed, ridiculous and silly. The first time plastic ball was used Zhang Jike took the world by defeating ML in WC and everyone predicted (even LGL) he will dominate the plastic ball era. Then Zhang began losing and plastic ball was the culprit. Everyone begins losing and they all pointed at one thing, the plastic ball.

Fans point out how players, who thrives on spin, like Xu Xin is not as effective as before. What they forgot is how Timo is getting even better in this plastic era; clearly busting the myth plastic ball isnt good for spin oriented players.

I'll say it now, nothing about the game change even with plastic ball. The top is still filled by the same players. Xu Xin still dominates against Europeans. Japan still lost to China and China still reigns ahead of everyone.

To conclude, the ball matters not at the top. The dominant will still dominant and the weak is still weak. Backhand opening is still the same. Watch Ma Long Zhang Jike back then, nothing too much different other than Ma Long has better consistency on his backhand now.

Click to expand...

Timo Boll changed his style. Everyone, including Ma Long, adapts. The question is whether the changes help your strengths or your weaknesses. The overwhelming feature of Timo's game now is not spin but consistency.

Ma Long evolved and adapted his game. Everyone did. But the reduced spin in the game changed the shot selection. People can see what what Harimoto is doing is not how people used to play. Whether for you that means nothing has changed is fine but I won't waste my time with it.

The WC 2014 was played maybe 3 months after the ball was introduced. People hadn't worked our a lot of stuff back then.

zeio said:

In case you refuse to read what ML said,


At the World Cup 2014 in Dusseldorf, after a grueling seven-gamer with ZJK, ML conceded at 3:4. Afterward, the old-school ML decided to switch out his long-standing backhand sponge. Not only did this change take courage, but it also gave rise to unease during the technical shift brought about by the equipment change. "Looking back, if it wasn't because of that (loss), I wouldn't have had the resolve to switch equipment, and probably there wouldn't have been the subsequent me." said Ma Long.

Click to expand...

Why would I refuse to read what ML said? I just can't read chinese lol.

So now it's not about poly ball but backhand rubber? What are you trying to demonstrate with this post, that ML became what he is thanks to a new backhand rubber? And? How is that an argument against my post?

Of course a change of equipment can have a great impact on someone's play. But this quote doesn't change what I said. Changing his equipment or not, ML would have worked hard on improving his backhand, among other things. It may not have been as strong as with this equipment change, but one can't deny ML would've worked hard and improve it. He may have found another solution also.
Finally, one also can't reasonably attribute such convincing results to a simple equipment or ball change. It's not like he suddenly became great.

Why don't you also mention the disadvantages ML faced induced by the poly ball?

Harimotos punch blocks remind me of JOW and that can only be positive.

NextLevel said:

Timo Boll changed his style. Everyone, including Ma Long, adapts. The question is whether the changes help your strengths or your weaknesses. The overwhelming feature of Timo's game now is not spin but consistency.

Ma Long evolved and adapted his game. Everyone did. But the reduced spin in the game changed the shot selection. People can see what what Harimoto is doing is not how people used to play. Whether for you that means nothing has changed is fine but I won't waste my time with it.

The WC 2014 was played maybe 3 months after the ball was introduced. People hadn't worked our a lot of stuff back then.

Click to expand...

Ya, ya, ya...

One change leads to another as stated by Ding Song. LGL has also stated many CNT members, with the exception of ZJK, switched equipment in response to the 40+ ball.

http://sports.people.com.cn/BIG5/n/2015/0209/c383224-26531307.html

劉國梁說，大部分隊員對器材做了微調，調整海綿的軟硬，薄厚，馬龍的反手膠皮也換成了“國狂”。女隊朱雨玲增大了拍面，劉詩雯反手嘗試了國產膠皮。唯“大滿貫”張繼科未做任何調整。
...
劉國梁認為換新球還是帶來一些不確定性，亂世出英雄，如果不換球，一些隊員處於落后的局面很難趕超，但新球帶來了機會，對張繼科這樣的成績好的隊員是挑戰，對小將則是難得的機會。

Click to expand...

LGL states that most of the players have made micro-adjustments to their equipment, like the hardness and thickess of sponge. ML has changed his BH rubber to "National H3." ZYL has increased the headsize of her blade, and LSW has tried Chinese rubber on her BH. Only "Grand Slam holder" Zhang Jike has not made any adjustments.
...
LGL believes that the new ball has brought some uncertainty. Heroes rise in chaotic times. Without this change, those players who are falling behind will find it very difficult to catch up. However, the new ball has brought about opportunities. This will prove to be a challenge for players with good result like ZJK, but a rare opportunity for up-and-coming players.

Luke James said:

Why would I refuse to read what ML said? I just can't read chinese lol.

So now it's not about poly ball but backhand rubber? What are you trying to demonstrate with this post, that ML became what he is thanks to a new backhand rubber? And? How is that an argument against my post?

Of course a change of equipment can have a great impact on someone's play. But this quote doesn't change what I said. Changing his equipment or not, ML would have worked hard on improving his backhand, among other things. It may not have been as strong as with this equipment change, but one can't deny ML would've worked hard and improve it. He may have found another solution also.
Finally, one also can't reasonably attribute such convincing results to a simple equipment or ball change. It's not like he suddenly became great.

Why don't you also mention the disadvantages ML faced induced by the poly ball?

Click to expand...

He is not as physically strong as say Fan Zhendong or Liang Jingkun and that is a disadvantage with for Ma Long with the plastic ball. Happy? I believe that the serves also became less potent with the plastic ball given the Chiquita was easier to execute.

The question is being framed in terms of those people who he had to beat not those people who he didn't.

zeio said:

Ya, ya, ya...

One change leads to another as stated by Ding Song. LGL has also stated many CNT members, with the exception of ZJK, switched equipment in response to the 40+ ball.

http://sports.people.com.cn/BIG5/n/2015/0209/c383224-26531307.html

LGL states that most of the players have made micro-adjustments to their equipment, like the hardness and thickess of sponge. ML has changed his BH rubber to "National H3." ZYL has increased the headsize of her blade, and LSW has tried Chinese rubber on her BH. Only "Grand Slam holder" Zhang Jike has not made any adjustments.
...
LGL believes that the new ball has brought some uncertainty. Heroes rise in chaotic times. Without this change, those players who are falling behind will find it very difficult to catch up. However, the new ball has brought about opportunities. This will prove to be a challenge for players with good result like ZJK, but a rare opportunity for up-and-coming players.

Click to expand...

I believe ZJK did switch to T80 on the backhand over time.

RidTheKid said:

Harimotos punch blocks remind me of JOW and that can only be positive.

Click to expand...

That you think both are the same technique or used in the same way is either a joke or part of the problem with the current discussion. Out of respect for you, I suspect it is the former but humor does not travel well over the internet.

Luke James said:

Why would I refuse to read what ML said? I just can't read chinese lol.

So now it's not about poly ball but backhand rubber? What are you trying to demonstrate with this post, that ML became what he is thanks to a new backhand rubber? And? How is that an argument against my post?

Of course a change of equipment can have a great impact on someone's play. But this quote doesn't change what I said. Changing his equipment or not, ML would have worked hard on improving his backhand, among other things. It may not have been as strong as with this equipment change, but one can't deny ML would've worked hard and improve it. He may have found another solution also.
Finally, one also can't reasonably attribute such convincing results to a simple equipment or ball change. It's not like he suddenly became great.

Why don't you also mention the disadvantages ML faced induced by the poly ball?

Click to expand...

The other thing to realize is that no one is disputing that ML was a great played before the advent of the plastic ball. So the idea that he suddenly became great is framing the issue the wrong way. The question is whether there are any aspects of the changes to the plastic ball that made it easier for him to match up with the people he had to beat.

No I talk about play style, Harimoto is quite unique these days the way he punch blocks off the bounce. Some other do it as also, but not as well or frequently. JOW didn't have to put the same amount of power behind his blocks and the ball flew like a rocket anyway.

NextLevel said:

That you think both are the same technique or used in the same way is either a joke or part of the problem with the current discussion. Out of respect for you, I suspect it is the former but humor does not travel well over the internet.

Click to expand...

This was claimed in a Butterfly commercial but there are no images from his actual match blade that verifies this. It has always been T64.

NextLevel said:

I believe ZJK did switch to T80 on the backhand over time.

Click to expand...