Is ma long the GOAT ?

RidTheKid · May 16, 2019

Ma Long wouldn't win one single match against FZD today if he still had that poor bh like in 2013. FZD would consistently target ML's bh and the points FZD don't win in that bh exchange he would go to the wide fh, over and over and game over. Plastic ball or not.

NextLevel said:
He is not as physically strong as say Fan Zhendong or Liang Jingkun and that is a disadvantage with for Ma Long with the plastic ball. Happy? I believe that the serves also became less potent with the plastic ball given the Chiquita was easier to execute.

The question is being framed in terms of those people who he had to beat not those people who he didn't.

Luke James · May 16, 2019

What are you trying to prove with these quotes? I know you can read chinese and english, fine, but you don't answer my posts.

What does the fact that most CNT players changed their rubbers but not ZJK proves? Maybe that the polyball suited his game and equipment better, or that he was too lazy to change, but how is that an argument against ML?

"Heroes rise in chaotic times. Without this change, those players who are falling behind will find it very difficult to catch up. However, the new ball has brought about opportunities. This will prove to be a challenge for players with good result like ZJK, but a rare opportunity for up-and-coming players."

Why do you quote that? Do you think LGL talked about ML as one of the players falling behind? Are you implying that ML was an up-and-coming player in 2014, hadn't good results before the poly ball and this change gave him the chance to try and beat ZJK?

Don't you have better arguments?

All your arguments could stand if ML suddenly became great after the poly ball. Which is clearly not the case and you know it as much as I do.

zeio · May 16, 2019

NextLevel said:
I believe ZJK did switch to T80 on the backhand over time.

That quote is from early 2015, before the WTTC. But he did change later on, even switched to T05 on the FH in 2017?

RidTheKid · May 16, 2019

The answer to that is "maybe, who knows?" We have no idea of knowing exactly how much it impacted, we can only guess. If you want to keep guessing then go ahead. What we DO know is that ML changed rubber, that he focused on improving his bh and those changes and the results are there for all to see.

NextLevel said:
The other thing to realize is that no one is disputing that ML was a great played before the advent of the plastic ball. So the idea that he suddenly became great is framing the issue the wrong way. The question is whether there are any aspects of the changes to the plastic ball that made it easier for him to match up with the people he had to beat.

RidTheKid · May 16, 2019

Yes ZJK changed to T05 on fh during going in and out of his injury spell because he probably felt (guessing) that his footwork wasn't on par with what is demanded by the H3N. The loss to Apolonia happened during this period if I recall correctly. If you want to find images of the rubber I mean.

zeio said:
That quote is from early 2015, before the WTTC. But he did change later on, even switched to T05 on the FH in 2017?

Luke James · May 16, 2019

NextLevel said:
The other thing to realize is that no one is disputing that ML was a great played before the advent of the plastic ball. So the idea that he suddenly became great is framing the issue the wrong way. The question is whether there are any aspects of the changes to the plastic ball that made it easier for him to match up with the people he had to beat.

How easy is that.
Focusing on the aspects that made it easier for him is forgetting the disadvantages. One doesn't go without the other.

NextLevel · May 16, 2019

Luke James said:
What are you trying to prove with these quotes? I know you can read chinese and english, fine, but you don't answer my posts.

What does the fact that most CNT players changed their rubbers but not ZJK proves? Maybe that the polyball suited his game and equipment better, or that he was too lazy to change, but how is that an argument against ML?

"Heroes rise in chaotic times. Without this change, those players who are falling behind will find it very difficult to catch up. However, the new ball has brought about opportunities. This will prove to be a challenge for players with good result like ZJK, but a rare opportunity for up-and-coming players."

Why do you quote that? Do you think LGL talked about ML as one of the players falling behind? Are you implying that ML was an up-and-coming player in 2014, hadn't good results before the poly ball and this change gave him the chance to try and beat ZJK?

Don't you have better arguments?

All your arguments could stand if ML suddenly became great after the poly ball. Which is clearly not the case and you know it as much as I do.

It proves that the plastic ball era should not be naively viewed as a continuous era with the cell ball era which was my main point.

NextLevel · May 16, 2019

Luke James said:
How easy is that.
Focusing on the aspects that made it easier for him is forgetting the disadvantages. One doesn't go without the other.

In life we focus on the important things. We don't focus on everything that changed, but how the changes affect us. Focusing on how the changes affected ML's matchups not just on how the changes affected TT. Less spin made some things harder but some things easier. You can credit Ma Long for adapting to the changes and that is one view of greatness. But if you want to pretend that the celluloid era and the plastic era are just one era because the same names hover around, that is not the case.

zeio · May 16, 2019

Luke James said:
What are you trying to prove with these quotes? I know you can read chinese and english, fine, but you don't answer my posts.

What does the fact that most CNT players changed their rubbers but not ZJK proves? Maybe that the polyball suited his game and equipment better, or that he was too lazy to change, but how is that an argument against ML?

"Heroes rise in chaotic times. Without this change, those players who are falling behind will find it very difficult to catch up. However, the new ball has brought about opportunities. This will prove to be a challenge for players with good result like ZJK, but a rare opportunity for up-and-coming players."

Why do you quote that? Do you think LGL talked about ML as one of the players falling behind? Are you implying that ML was an up-and-coming player in 2014, hadn't good results before the poly ball and this change gave him the chance to try and beat ZJK?

Don't you have better arguments?

All your arguments could stand if ML suddenly became great after the poly ball. Which is clearly not the case and you know it as much as I do.

Ya, ya, ya. ZJK beat ML in WC 2014 because of the 40+ ball.

http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2015/0126/101257.html

以下为《乒乓世界》2015年第1期内容，刘国梁专栏：
...
　　马龙现在要敲响警钟

　　换打塑料球以后，樊振东在全锦赛团体和单打中都赢了马龙，对马龙来说这是一个警钟。因为换球之前樊振东没有赢过他，换球以后，马龙在关键球的处理上还不能完全掌控和驾驭，从男子世界杯比赛中也可以看出一二，在要求他打得很精确的时候，他没能找到以前打球的感觉。

From LGL's column in Table Tennis World, Volume 1 of 2015:
After the change to plastic ball, FZD beat ML in the team and singles event of National Championships. This is an alarm for ML. Because FZD never beat him before the change. After the change, ML could not fully control and handle the crucial points. It can also be seen in the Men’s World Cup, when he is required to play very accurately, he couldn't find his touch like before.

RidTheKid · May 16, 2019

Thinking about it, it would be fun to watch FZD play with the old 38 mm cell ball, that ball would become a weapon

Luke James · May 16, 2019

You must be confounding me with someone else.
I never pretended the cell ball era was the same as the poly era. I don't play TT anymore and never played on a national level but I've played with both balls, noticed changes and am smart enough to understand that he such a change can imply great differences, even more on an international level.

What I'm saying is that Zeio doesn't respond to my posts and his quotes, as instructive as they are, don't sustain his point of view that ML was lucky that the poly ball was introduced.

"In life we focus on the important things. We don't focus on everything that changed, but how the changes affect us."
This doesn't change the fact that both positive and negative impacts must be taken into consideration.
By focusing on what makes it easier for ML to play, you're opening wide doors to everyone looking for arguments against ML achievements.

Luke James · May 16, 2019

I never said ZJK won 2014 WC against ML thanks to the poly ball. They played almost on the same level but ZJK handled last points better.

I'm not a ZJK hater.

zeio · May 16, 2019

Luke James said:
What I'm saying is that Zeio doesn't respond to my posts and his quotes, as instructive as they are, don't sustain his point of view that ML was lucky that the poly ball was introduced.

Please answer that by quoting.

Luke James · May 16, 2019

I can't quote you as the only thing you're doing is quoting others.
That was just a conclusion after reading all your posts looking for arguments against ML.

Maybe was I wrong and is it not what you're thinking?

NextLevel · May 16, 2019

Luke James said:
By focusing on what make it easier for ML to play, you're opening wide doors to everyone looking for arguments against ML achievements.

So what is wrong with arguing against ML's achievements? This is exactly the issue I have with some ML fans. There is no need to make this a religion. The achievements will remain historic no matter what anyone says. But what ML fans want is fawning adulation without a hint of serious criticism or retrospection.

RidTheKid · May 16, 2019

I think Zeio is referring to the "reply function", if you reply without it Zeio won't get a notification that you addressed him.

Luke James said:
I can't quote you as the only thing you're doing is quoting others.
That was just a conclusion after reading all your posts looking for arguments against ML.

Maybe was I wrong and is it not what you're thinking?

Luke James · May 16, 2019

Sorry I'm french and my english isn't perfect. I should've said "fallacious arguments".

There is nothing wrong with arguing with ML's achievements, as long as these arguments are valid.

Luke James · May 16, 2019

WH argument was valid and I had no problems discussing that with Carl.
But if you want to prove that the poly ball is one of the main factors leading to ML's recent success, you got to consider both advantages and disadvantages it brought to him.
Forgetting the latter is as unfair and stupid as when people claimed ZJK got Grand Slam because he didnt face ML.

NextLevel · May 16, 2019

Luke James said:
WH argument was valid and I had no problems discussing that with Carl.
But if you want to prove that the poly ball is one of the main factors leading to ML's recent success, you got to consider both advantages and disadvantages it brought to him.
Forgetting the latter is as unfair and stupid as when people claimed ZJK got Grand Slam because he didnt face ML.

You need to learn to quote posts when responding.

And there is nothing unfair or stupid in about pointing out that ZJK got a grand slam without facing ML. Everyone can judge the relevance.

But the idea that one should point out what are relatively less important aspects of the plastic ball change is silly unless it is at least equally relevant. It is like saying that when discussing the impact of the change on choppers, we should give equal focus to the increased control choppers have while forgetting about their difficulty generating backspin. Did Mizutani improve so much that he started beating Joo? Or did the ball play a role?

Did Wu Yang just forget how to play TT?

Let us be serious here and stop acting like bringing up reasonable points is not worth discussing. If you think that the plastic ball did not change things that much, that is one view. If you think it changed things, that is another. Nothing wrong with bringing them up as long as they can be discussed and weighted.

Luke James · May 16, 2019

NextLevel said:
You need to learn to quote posts when responding.

And there is nothing unfair or stupid in about pointing out that ZJK got a grand slam without facing ML. Everyone can judge the relevance.

But the idea that one should point out what are relatively less important aspects of the plastic ball change is silly unless it is at least equally relevant. It is like saying that when discussing the impact of the change on choppers, we should give equal focus to the increased control choppers have while forgetting about their difficulty generating backspin. Did Mizutani improve so much that he started beating Joo? Or did the ball play a role?

Did Wu Yang just forget how to play TT?

Let us be serious here and stop acting like bringing up reasonable points is not worth discussing. If you think that the plastic ball did not change things that much, that is one view. If you think it changed things, that is another. Nothing wrong with bringing them up as long as they can be discussed and weighted.

And who is deciding how important an aspect of the plastic ball change is to ML's game? You probably?

No one in this forum can weight these changes efficiently. Unless you have a scientific backup, quotes from CNT staff or have secretly worked with CNT, you can't decide and claim that ML faced few disadvantages compared to all the advantages he gained.

Is ma long the GOAT ?

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