Is ma long the GOAT ?

People are losing track and likely losing it, so I posted these quotes on 40+ because some accuse others for blowing it out of proportion and even making stuff up, especially on its effect to players.

Since Google Translate has serious trouble handling these sentences written by Ding Song, I've taken the time to go through them.

在改打乒乓塑料球的实践过程中,中国队却发现:随着球的弹跳力下降,一度被视为保守和落后的摆短技术,又重新发挥出巨大的实战作用。以马龙和许昕为例:过去摆不短和摆不住的球,现在竟然能够摆得又短又低,实战中占很大的优势。总教练刘国梁进行了及时的总结,并把它延伸至发球技术上。

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After the change to plastic ball, CNT discovered that as the bounce height reduces, the "place short"(off the bounce short push), which was once considered conservative and obsolete, has once again played a huge tactical role. Take ML and XX for example, for shots that they couldn't place short or place tight, now they could place it short and low, giving them a huge advantage in actual matches. Head coach LGL made a timely conclusion and extended it to the service.

马龙反手过去打的是国外套胶,优势是易于掌握,弊端是威胁不大;而打国产套胶的优势是击球的质量高,弊端是难以掌握和控制;鉴于马龙的训练刻苦,手感突出,改打国产套胶,不仅能够掌握,而且能提高击球质量,增进打法威胁,权衡下来利大于弊,因此在临近苏州乒乓球世锦赛的2个月前,教练组决定让马龙改打国产套胶,从而收到了意想不到的实战效果。在马龙的影响下,现在中国乒乓球队中已有一半队员都在进行这种尝试,同时也成为今后应对变革的一条可行之路。

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ML used to play grippy rubbers on the BH. The pros and cons are that it's easy to master, but at the cost of limited threat. For tacky rubbers, shot quality is high but it's hard to control. In view of Ma Long's strenuous training and outstanding touch, not only can he master by switching to tacky rubber, but also improve his shot quality, and in turn increases the threat of his style. With the pros outweighing the cons, the coaching staff decided to get him to switch to tacky rubber 2 months ahead of the WTTC in Suzhou, which led to an unexpected effect. Under the influence of ML, half of the CNT is now making such an attempt, and it has become a feasible way to cope with changes in the future.

以马龙为例:过去他的反手在对方进攻时,只是消极地平挡,现在对方攻球的质量下降,他就能够腾出手进行强势对抗；实战中他的对抗强度、防中转攻的机会和防御的质量,都得到了很大的提升,使得自身的打法更加全面、硬朗和强势。

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Take ML for instance. In the past, he used to just block passively on the BH when the opponent was on the offensive. Now that the quality of the incoming attacks have reduced, he could free up his hand for a strong confrontation. In actual matches, his resistance, switch between defense and attack, and defense quality have greatly improved, making his style even more comprehensive, tough and strong.

Luke James said:

No one in this forum can weight these changes efficiently. Unless you have a scientific backup, quotes from CNT staff or have secretly worked with CNT, you can't decide and claim that ML faced few disadvantages compared to all the advantages he gained.

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I think a certain dude whose name starts with z did just that and a certain other jumped the gun to accuse that dude for not making any argument of his own but only quoting these quotes.

zeio said:

People are losing track and likely losing it, so I posted these quotes on 40+ because some accuse others for blowing it out of proportion and even making stuff up, especially on its effect to players.

Since Google Translate has serious trouble handling these sentences written by Ding Song, I've taken the time to go through them.


After the change to plastic ball, CNT discovered that as the bounce height reduces, the "place short"(off the bounce short push), which was once considered conservative and obsolete, has once again played a huge tactical role. Take ML and XX for example, for shots that they couldn't place short or place tight, now they could place it short and low, giving them a huge advantage in actual matches. Head coach LGL made a timely conclusion and extended it to the service.


ML used to play grippy rubbers on the BH. The pros and cons are that it's easy to master, but at the cost of limited threat. For tacky rubbers, shot quality is high but it's hard to control. In view of Ma Long's strenuous training and outstanding touch, not only can he master by switching to tacky rubber, but also improve his shot quality, and in turn increases the threat of his style. With the pros outweighing the cons, the coaching staff decided to get him to switch to tacky rubber 2 months ahead of the WTTC in Suzhou, which led to an unexpected effect. Under the influence of ML, half of the CNT is now making such an attempt, and it has become a feasible way to cope with changes in the future.


Take ML for instance. In the past, he used to just block passively on the BH when the opponent was on the offensive. Now that the quality of the incoming attacks have reduced, he could free up his hand for a strong confrontation. In actual matches, his resistance, switch between defense and attack, and defense quality have greatly improved, making his style even more comprehensive, tough and strong.

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Was actually waiting for something like that, thanks for taking the time.

See, this is an argument and I have no problems admitting it.

zeio said:

I think a certain dude whose name starts with z did just that and a certain other jumped the gun to accuse that dude for not making any argument of his own but only quoting these quotes.

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Well you can't deny you didn't put in much efforts to convince us before that last translation right?

Luke James said:

Well you can't deny you didn't put in much efforts to convince us before that last translation right?

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You must've missed this.

zeio said:

You must've missed this.

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I indeed didn't have enough time reading all the thread and all your posts.

yoass said:

Fallacy: Loaded question.



Fallacy: Ad hominem.



Fallacy: Sample size. Would you say 31 is a sufficient quorum to decide this for the entirety of mankind for all of history - past, present and future (the "AT" in "GOAT")?



Fallacy: Ad populum. If I don't like spinach, 16 people expressing their opinion that spinach is the VOAT (for them) won't make me like it any more. Votes don't turn propositions into true ones.

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Amen...

I am not sure I should spend time argue with this PhD. You can disagree with my purpose of using voting to answer "is ML the GOAT", but you can't say the methodology is wrong. And for god sake don't use your degree to harass others because it only means you are having a superiority or an inferiority complex. Do I need to tell you how much I contribute to the society or how many patents I have to prove I am better than you?

Your example of "Pi equals 3" to prove a majority of a population can be wrong has many gaps. First is voting itself is not wrong to begin with. 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] is that it depends on the purpose of the vote. If the person who arrange the voting wants to know if there is a percentage of a population accepting such statement or not. 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] is that you are assuming a majority of a population will accept the wrong statement. It is also surprising to see a few people in this forum also agree with you.

Everyone has his/her own opinion and I respect that but please do not insult our intelligence by telling us wrong in finding out the percentage of people who think ML is the GOAT.

Updating the list..

NL: ML is GOAT but ... more like GOHT
Ttmonster: ML is GOHT
Suds79: Nobody is GOAT
Fruitloop: ML is no doubt the GOAT
RTK: ML is GOAT because
Rain: ML is GOAT based on ...
AKB5: ML is GOAT
Darucla: ML is GOAT
Richie: ML possibly is the GOAT
Unusualsuspect: ML is GOAT because..
ouchouch: ML is GOAT because I am a fan
UpsidedownCarl: ML is the best ever means ML is GOAT
Lula: not sure who is..
Aerial: ML is GOAT, period.
Ping: ZJK is GOAT no but because I am ZJK fan.
Zeio: ZJK is GOAT?
Drunix80: ML is GOAT because...
Nofootwork: ML is GOAT
Takkyu_wa_inochi: ML is GOAT ?
Musa: ML is GOAT
Yoass PhD: No GOAT with some illogical explanations and consider the rest are inferior to him if they don't agree with him lol.
Trismegistus: ML is likely the GOAT..
Der_Echte: Mark Flores is the GOAT
Bricephan: ML is the GOAT
ininam: ML is the GOAT
Yogi-bear: only GOHT
passifid: ML, JW, Barna, FZD?
ttchats: JW is the GOAT
BRS: none is...
Luke James: ML is the GOAT
ADE14212: ML is the GOAT
Tropical: ML is GOAT based on TTD members' analysis and possible voting outcome.

There are total 32 TTD members join this discussion.

No GOAT: 3 (9.4%)
Not sure who is: 5 (15.6%)
ZJK is GOAT: 2 (6.3%)
JW is the GOAT: 1 (3.1%)
Only GOHT: 3 (9.4%)
ML is GOAT: 19 (59.4%)

NextLevel said:

Did Wu Yang just forget how to play TT?

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Can't resist quoting...


http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...017-german-open-magdeburg-ger-nov-712#1003554

Wu Yang had this to say on her Weibo after the slaughter.

(After the switch to ABS ball, only one thought is on my mind - I want to play all-out attack. clap clap clap)

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Ding Song's article explained what he thought affected ML by plastic ball "when he is required to play very accurately, he couldn't find his touch like before." His analysis on the pros and cons of tacky H3 rubber explained why coaching staff thought changing rubber might help ML improve his BH game and the result was "unexpected". He mentioned "half of the CNT is now making such an attempt, and it has become a feasible way to cope with changes in the future." but he didn't show the result that many changed back because H3 was not easy to control and made the cons overweight pros.


Isn't that hard to understand one has to cope with ball change by adjusting equipment/techniques/tactics to find solutions and an adjustment will not work for all people?

Oh tropical, you can vote until you’re blue but that won’t make ML the GOAT.

You’ll only show that a number of people think so. And that don’t make it so. Sorry, facts are immune to pop polls.

Luke James said:

And who is deciding how important an aspect of the plastic ball change is to ML's game? You probably?

No one in this forum can weight these changes efficiently. Unless you have a scientific backup, quotes from CNT staff or have secretly worked with CNT, you can't decide and claim that ML faced few disadvantages compared to all the advantages he gained.

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Zeio provided the details which you refused to read. I either read zeio on mytt or got some stuff through independent back channels from high level TT friends and coaches.

Moreover, GOAT is mostly opinion. You read, evaluate and come to your own conclusion. There are hitters and pitchers who are entering the Baseball hall of fame in the USA who would not have made it in the past because stats have given new insights into when a player is overrated or underrated. It was this kind of insight into what it means to be as consistent as ML was from 2009 to 2013 that helped me conclude he was the best player even when Zhang Jike was winning the big titles. The idea that everyone has to agree with an argument for it to work or that the argument has to be made with 100% precision and accuracy to make sense is ludicrous.

In fact, I suspect in the future, people will give ML more credit for dominating across 2 eras instead of seeing him as dominant after 2015 and being the GOAT because of the big titles. But this is my view.

And you can read zeio'a posts if you want the details of how the plastic ball changes were evaluated by the CNT.

yoass said:

Oh tropical, you can vote until you’re blue but that won’t make ML the GOAT.

You’ll only show that a number of people think so. And that don’t make it so. Sorry, facts are immune to pop polls.

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Yes, you belong to the elite 10% group.

There are a lot of pro's opinions about the plastic ball change and here is just one during CNT trial for 2015 WTTC.
https://sports.qq.com/a/20150207/006300.htm


FZD gained more confidence with plastic ball "Now I've found some techniques/tactics that suit me well, to make it more effective to handle the ball. My unforced errors reduce. I am more positively fighting against opponents, finding chances and capitalizing to win the match."
ML, who is always sensitive, felt "the difference on flying trajectories. Topspins are more bouncy. Backspins are falling faster." when he first used plastic ball. He even found the sound of the new ball different due to different material. In this trial, ML revealed that he was adjusting his techniques. He needed some time to adapt because the old and new techniques were conflicting.
Similarly, DN revealed that her play was largely affected entering "plastic ball era". She started from detailed basics during training and looked for the principles of plastic ball.
How much will the use of plastic ball affect players? LGL said, in the short term, players will be affected more or less. But in the long term, the true levels speak. Timo Boll said clearly that he was not affected by the use of plastic ball.
In the test stage of plastic ball, many players complaint the spins were reduced. Chinese players who are good at speed and spin will be affected.


We don't need to agree with the pros. Maybe they just don't know what they are talking about.


BTW, ML and DN who said they were not used to plastic ball in 2015 Feb both won WTTC in May. One year later, they both won 2016 OG; one year later they both won 2017 WTTC. Maybe this is the right strategy to fool your opponents because they are the people who benefited from plastic ball, they cannot improve and others just decline.

You keep resorting to the ad hominem. I’ve pointed that out, yet you keep going on doing it.

It’s a fallacy and doesn’t wash. It even smells bad. Pretty bad.

NextLevel said:

Zeio provided the details which you refused to read. I either read zeio on mytt or got some stuff through independent back channels from high level TT friends and coaches.

Moreover, GOAT is mostly opinion. You read, evaluate and come to your own conclusion. There are hitters and pitchers who are entering the Baseball hall of fame in the USA who would not have made it in the past because stats have given new insights into when a player is overrated or underrated. It was this kind of insight into what it means to be as consistent as ML was from 2009 to 2013 that helped me conclude he was the best player even when Zhang Jike was winning the big titles. The idea that everyone has to agree with an argument for it to work or that the argument has to be made with 100% precision and accuracy to make sense is ludicrous.

In fact, I suspect in the future, people will give ML more credit for dominating across 2 eras instead of seeing him as dominant after 2015 and being the GOAT because of the big titles. But this is my view.

And you can read zeio'a posts if you want the details of how the plastic ball changes were evaluated by the CNT.

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Stop making assumptions I didn't refuse to read anything I don't have enough free time reading all this forum's posts.

Zeio has a good argument this time but rain also has something to say. One has to speak chinese to get the full story and not rely on one or few chinese speakers who could choose what they want to translate.

Mental game is the key in winning not the change of ball that favors certain players. Experts can be wrong as we have seen a self-claimed PhD made a fool out of himself. I lost most of the time to a particular player at our old club, but in real matches in a tournament I beat him twice in a roll.

Luke James said:

Stop making assumptions I didn't refuse to read anything I don't have enough free time reading all this forum's posts.

Zeio has a good argument this time but rain also has something to say. One has to speak chinese to get the full story and not rely on one or few chinese speakers who could choose what they want to translate.

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The last part I agree with. The first part well if you choose not to do something, whatever your excuse, it is a choice. Maybe a practical and reasonable.choice, but let's not pretend that zeio posted stuff that if you had 30 minutes you couldn't have made sense of it. I can understand why you wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes but that is different from saying that it was just a lack of time when in reality we always lack time and make choices.

For those who don't like to accept Ma Long as the GOAT, you could instead call him the BOAT.

Is green the square root of turnip?