USA Table Tennis at it's finest

@Phillypong

His team not making it was not his fault Here is his result of 2010:
3916153 T. Wang (Timothy) Petstra/DTK '70 2 15 13 87%
and 2009 he was the player with the best win ratio in the league:
3916153 T. Wang (Timothy) De Treffers '70 2 26 22 85%

There was 1 player in that 2010 season that got 88%, so he was the 2nd best player there, apart from those top 2 everyone had a ratio below 80%. So his level would probably be the Dutch Eredivisie (which is still not very high in international standards of course).

Come on guys. Stop arguing. Nobody is saying that Michael Landers is going to be World Champion. Nobody is saying he is going to be top 50. He probably won't make top 100 or close to it. Some of that has to do with the fact that there are no real opportunities to train the way he would be able to in Europe. Some of it has to do with the fact that he is a smart kid and will probably make an intelligent choice and go to college. But, considering everything he has had going against him, he has done pretty well for a kid from Long Island.

By the way, to call Ernesto Ebuen a 2400 level player is a little silly. If you look at his USATT rating history from March 2008 through May 2011 he spends much of the time either above 2600 or within 10 points of 2600. There is a period in there where he goes down to 2568 for a while; a few places where he is in the 2570's, but otherwise he is in the 2580's, 2590's or over 2600. His highest rating that I see is 2627. Not bad. Since the first time he went over 2500, in February of 2008, he has not gone below 2500 one time. After May of 2011 (last May), his rating has slowly been dropping a little at a time. I think he is more focused on being a coach these days than a competitor. But, even with this being the case he is still over 2500 and to call Ernesto a 2400 level player sounds a little foolish to me.

By the way, I have seen Michael Landers beat Ernesto with money on the line. So, I am not sure where that comes from either. Although it is true that Ernesto usually takes care of Michael when they play. It sort of makes sense to me.

But why argue about things like this. Why put people down. There is no need to. These guys are not on the level of the top players in the world and if you took anyone of the top players from Europe or Asia and at 4 years old had them grow up anywhere in the US, and they had the same access to coaching, training and competition as Michael Landers, Adam Hugh or Peter Li, they would probably be at a similar level to the US players. And if you put the top US players somewhere where they had better access to training, coaching and competitive play they would probably develop more fully.

So the real unfortunate thing is that there is not more opportunities in the US and in spite of that, it is great to see how much players like Adam Hugh, Peter Li, Michael Landers and a host of others have done considering these extenuating circumstances.

Perhaps a player like Michael would not start in the top tier in League play in Europe. But so what. They might get there eventually. And without that kind of competition to play against how can you really compare.

I think there are a lot of good points here, but lets put things in perspective. It is great to see a good kid like Michael Landers, who is young and has worked hard, do so well in the Olympic trials.

Congratulations to Mike and it is great to watch that footage of him. Good fun video. Thanks for posting.

To be honest though the U.S. is lacking in organisation and resources our players are some of the best Juniors and Cadets in the World rankings. Many are top 5 in the world for their age brackets when competing. The problem lies in the fact that when they grow up there is much less opportunity to grow so they tend to fade away during college and attempt coming back afterwards. Hands down our top players are quite good and can compete within the top 400 in the world. The difference lies in that our players don't have the opportunities to compete in many world competitions to gain the necessary experience for more competition.

Frankly this discussion basically should be at an end. None of us is quite at the world class level and we're arguing about things that are our opinions rather than straight facts. Everyone knows rankings are only an estimate and by far do not represent anyone's true skill. If you play 1 tournament a year you aren't likely to be high on the rankings, but if you play every month of the year of course your ranking is way more accurate and obviously your ranking is likely to go up. But honestly this isn't something we should be debating because we aren't at that level and even if some of you are at that level, there aren't enough people in this discussion who have the right to argue with you.

cmetsbeltran15 said:

Thanks for showing us that the USA and Belgian juniors are still well below the world class ones. We couldn't have figured it out without you "illustrating" with that video.

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Please dont compare the USA juniors to the Belgian juniors, for example Jean Lauric just played the semi-final in the under 21j Quatar open, the day Michael Landers or any other USA junior plays a semi final in an event of that level , mail me ok !

phillypong said:

Please dont compare tha USA juniors to the Belgian juniors, for example Jean Lauric just played the semi-final in the under 21j Quatar open, the day Michael Landers or any other USA junior plays a semi final in an event of that level , mail me ok !

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Kowait not Qatar. That was indeed a good result. I hope he can become a solid second-division player in Germany.

In the meantime, check out Ariel Hsing and Lily Zhang, because the US girls are already at that level and will break world top 100 soon. (Are there any female TT players in Belgium, actually?)

phillypong said:

Please dont compare tha USA juniors to the Belgian juniors, for example Jean Lauric just played the semi-final in the under 21j Quatar open, the day Michael Landers or any other USA junior plays a semi final in an event of that level , mail me ok !

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Come on guys, please. Nobody is saying that the US has players on the same level as the Belgian players. Lets not compare like that. phillypong, you have made some good points. So has everyone. But the comparisons are besides the point.

cmetsbeltran15 posted a very good video that is fun to watch. It is well put together. Many of the rallies are exciting. It shows some of the best players in the US, highlight footage, against Michael Landers. It is fun to see these guys. I get a kick out of seeing when Michael gets a good point and pumps his fist or some of those points where the shot meant he won the game. He has a great attitude and the competitive spirit. It is inspiring, no matter how he compares to players in other countries or other players in the US.

Hopefully the play of guys like him and some of the other up-and-coming players in the US will help inspire more youngsters in the country to take up the mantle.

I was at the FIT tournament in NYC this weekend and I had a great time watching Adam Hugh win the Open Level. His matches were great to watch even though, after the finals were done, he expressed that he felt he could have played better.

I also enjoyed watching Mark Croitoroo win the Under 2350. And the Chief, George Braithwaite, in his 70's, go to the finals in the Under 2250.

Mr. RicharD said:

Frankly this discussion basically should be at an end. None of us is quite at the world class level and we're arguing about things that are our opinions rather than straight facts. Everyone knows rankings are only an estimate and by far do not represent anyone's true skill. If you play 1 tournament a year you aren't likely to be high on the rankings, but if you play every month of the year of course your ranking is way more accurate and obviously your ranking is likely to go up. But honestly this isn't something we should be debating because we aren't at that level and even if some of you are at that level, there aren't enough people in this discussion who have the right to argue with you.

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I wasn't aware of any arguing, and I for one like to stick with facts, Richard. They are very convenient to have on your side in a discussion. Nor do you or I get to decide who can or cannot argue on an open internet forum. That's something every reader/poster has to decide for themselves and be a bit self-aware of, imo. For instance, you don't see me posting a single solitary word in discussions about different rubbers or equipment. I'm not that familiar with all the different options and packaging the manufacturers are throwing onto the market. I haven't played with 10% of them, not even close. I'm aware my opinion would be of no value there, so I say nothing. I find that to be a good habit to have when I know nothing.

SPO is very knowledgable about the game, but his match commentary is definitely dumbed down for the broadcast audience, the general public, that's part of his job and he knows it well, he'd be the first to tell you he was aiming to be 'accessible' for a wider audience. I had the enjoyable experience a few years ago where Sean sat next to me and explained to me what I was seeing as Adam Hugh played Lupi in a Men's single semifinal at the US Nationals. He is very insightful and four points into the match made a prediction that held true throughout the whole best of 7. He is tactically advanced, it was a strength of his game and he was always self-coaching, and has been a successful match coach himself for many players. Smart guy. Knows what he is talking about.

I appreciate that you are now enjoying meeting some top-level players. Its good to live the dream, man. But my advice is that when you hear sour grapes, you should not repeat them from the locker room to the public. 'Fan was upset by the ref', 'Mike won by stamina'...omg, Richard, being physically and mentally and emotionally strong is what the test is about! That's why they are called TRIALS. Not trials as in an experiment, but TRIAL as in Trial by fire, a true test, a push it to the wall and see who wins contest. Everyone was in equal conditions, or as close to equal as the organizers could make them. Michael finished first. Good for him! Good for all the players! Good for Roger Dickson who lost in the first round of the qualifier! Victory without Opposition is meaningless. But don't expect the vanquished to EVER admit..that guy is a better player than I am. If they didn't believe they were the best in the country themselves and welcome the chance to prove it they wouldn't show up. And real champions don't ever want it in their heads that guy s better than me. They just don't. But those are not comments fit for public broadcast, much less attribution. I hope you get my meaning.

I absolutely get your meaning Alan. As I've said before no sour grapes at all. Of the people who had beaten Michael, Adam and Peter, and of those tactically aware of his game Sean and Ernesto they all agreed that this tournament was his day. I've obviously miscommunicated myself and for that I apologize. What I mean to say is that Michael is a great and fantastic player, fun to watch and absolutely in love with the game. What I don't agree with as many have shown here is that Michael for having won this tournament automatically assumes the position of better than the rest. He is not ranked 300-400 in the ITTF men's and he certainly is not quite up there in skill level either. Players like Han, Peter, Adam, and Tim are consistently up there in the international tournaments the few that they play. I have no doubt that Michael is likely to surpass those ahead of him and it's great that he's considered the underdog being one of the few caucasian players at that level, but he is not quite there yet as far as skill goes. He's definitely getting there, but he has yet to really define his shots. He adapts well and his stamina and will power are probably only matched by Adam Hugh currently, but when you look at a player from the Modern TT perspective Michael is an all around player who has not quite defined his signature shots. Peter has an amazing counter and has perhaps the best banana flick in the U.S., Han is notorious as well as Mark for having one of the strongest backhands in the game, Tim is a fighter and rallier and also has a great BH block as well as an amazing forehand counter, Adam has the will power to fight in any situation and has some of the spinniest forehand shots in the country, Michael however hasn't quite gotten a shot down that defines him.

When you think of a player you don't think of their service, their receive of service, nor their tactics, you think of the shots that define them. Waldner's touch shots were the best in the world and quite possibly history, Ma Lin has one of the most accurate forehands in the world and possibly in history, Wang Li Qin is renowned for his amazing forehand drive which is still considered to be the strongest in the world, Persson's BH flick is probably the first to ever be donned on a player as a key shot in their repertoire, Joo Se Hyuk has the most amazing recovery counter in the game right now where he'll run in on the shorter balls to make the winner, Zhang Ji Ke is of course more known for his strong backhand loop, Ma Long is another who's best known for his forehand and it's many variations. So not to leave any players out, but that's how they're thought of.

So to put things more simply no I don't believe that Michael is quite at a level where he surpasses his team mates. He had a great tournament and it will be exciting to see how he does down in Cary for the N.A. Trials.

Liu Guoliang is known for having dominated people with his serve and receive and his tactics.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Was Schlager known for something? Serves maybe?

I just don't get your point Mr.Richard, well I do know what you want to say but it makes no sense since serve and receive are one of the key elements of the modern game.

And you know, when I think of Ma Lin for example, I immediately think of his serves, then the forehand that is followed by a great serve. Without great service and receive neither Ma Long or Zhang Jike would be at the top. Also don't get you talking about Zhang Jikes backhand loop because he mostly blocks and counterhits close to the table. Ma Long loops with his backhand more often than Zhang Jike does, but still is known of his forehand of course.

You're generalizing too much, how could you know what all the other people think?

He is a very good player, great style. I was amaze that his coach is a filipino. Good to know that table tennis is growing well in U.S.A.

TTTT said:

Belgian table tennis isn't exactly thriving, with Jean-Michel Saive still heads and shoulders above everyone else and the youngsters struggling to break through internationally. Apart from Charleroi, your Superdivision is very weak, and Michael Landers could certainly hold his own there. And he's only 17 and still improving.

In any case, great video with wonderful rallies!

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Just for your info : the Belgian "struggling" youngsters just won the doubles final in the ittf 2012 Italian junior and cadet open (beating the Japanese duo in the semi final, ok it was close and winning the final in 3 sets) you can watch the match on ittv.com , junior events.

And i still doubt very much if these players will ever be competitive in the future on world level.

When you say our super division is very weak , i wont say it is of world level but i know that for example a club like PW Diest (so this is not Charleroi) play now with Gareth Herbert (i think UK nr 3 or 4), Wang Xin (won 40% of his matches in the French Pro A over the last 3 seasons and plays in Hennebont Pro A still now) and Marc Closset as the 3rd player now (you can see him here in the Pro B of France).
Last year Diest played with Darius Knight and Ryan Jenkins.

Another club of our super league is Immo Mortsel and they have Segun Toriola as their first player (almost beat Oh Sang Eun in the 2008 Olympics, ex Pro A and now Pro B player, Argentan he was ittf ranked about place 60 a couple of years ago).
Another club Sokah has hired Tiago Monteiro this year . This shows that to strenghten a team in our Super league , you need very good players indeed.

I dont think this is "very weak" (but still very clearly weaker than the Bundesliga or the French Pro A, and also weaker than the upper Pro B in France i guess).

I also asked the question : what is the level of the Dutch Eredivisie to the person who is responsible for buying players of PW Diest (he visits the UK, Netherlands, France to search for new players for the team in the super league) and he sais that the best 4 clubs of the Dutch "Eredivisie" have the level of the Belgian super league, but that the rest of the Eredivisie is clearly weaker, there seems to be a gap there.

Thanks for the info about the Superdivision, I always enjoy reading about leagues in other countries. I know Wang Xin from Hennebont and was wondering where he'd gone. And Gareth Herbert still plays? Interesting.

I'm a little confused though about Toriola and Monteiro: they also currently play in the French second division, are they allowed to play in two leagues at the same time? Or is this for next year?

Congrats to your youngsters for winning the doubles event in Italy. I've never heard of the Japanese pair they beat (and they don't have a world ranking), so it's hard to compare levels. The Czech boys that they beat in the final are ranked #474 and #650.
Once again no American player had the opportunity to compete there, unfortunately.

TTTT said:

Thanks for the info about the Superdivision, I always enjoy reading about leagues in other countries. I know Wang Xin from Hennebont and was wondering where he'd gone. And Gareth Herbert still plays? Interesting.

I'm a little confused though about Toriola and Monteiro: they also currently play in the French second division, are they allowed to play in two leagues at the same time? Or is this for next year?

Congrats to your youngsters for winning the doubles event in Italy. I've never heard of the Japanese pair they beat (and they don't have a world ranking), so it's hard to compare levels. The Czech boys that they beat in the final are ranked #474 and #650.
Once again no American player had the opportunity to compete there, unfortunately.

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I believe since recently (like 1 year) it is allowed for players to play in multiple leagues at the same time.

TTTT said:

Thanks for the info about the Superdivision, I always enjoy reading about leagues in other countries. I know Wang Xin from Hennebont and was wondering where he'd gone. And Gareth Herbert still plays? Interesting.

I'm a little confused though about Toriola and Monteiro: they also currently play in the French second division, are they allowed to play in two leagues at the same time? Or is this for next year?

Congrats to your youngsters for winning the doubles event in Italy. I've never heard of the Japanese pair they beat (and they don't have a world ranking), so it's hard to compare levels. The Czech boys that they beat in the final are ranked #474 and #650.
Once again no American player had the opportunity to compete there, unfortunately.

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These players are indeed allowed to play in multiples leagues at the same time now, Monteiro and Toriola are active this year (Toriola played for Immo Mortsel already 2 or 3 years ago), beating Saive already then.

Alan Williams said:

I'm sorry, but is that a typo? Did you mean to say 'over the year(s)? There are nowhere near that many unique individuals playing sanctioned tournaments in the United States annually. 8000 is the total membership figure and only about 30% of them are tournament active. That membership number also includes Honorary and Lifetime members, some of whom have not lifted a paddle in years. Some of them are dead. Since no one notifies USATT of a death, a Lifetime member may stay on the membership rolls for years until its pointed out. Likewise, that number of 3500 Foreign or guest players is a total EVER playing here, going back about 20 years in the current ratings database. There are definitely NOT 3500 members of other associations playing tournaments every year in the US. You can check this with Joyce at HQ, she's the membership coordinator. Or ask Robert Blackwell at Killerspin. He did a very extensive analysis of US Tournament participation for the USOC a few years ago. His figures tracked it over several years time and presented it both to the Board of Directors and the High Performance Committee , if I recall correctly.

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Haha, hehe. Some of them are dead. Man, that is one cool way to phrase it dude. You are keeping it real.

Well, I think any discussion is better off when it is dealing with facts, and the tournament participation numbers that had been quoted were simply wrong, so I corrected them. Here's another way to look at the size of organized TT in America. There are more murderers who have served their time and been released from prison or are on parole than there are USATT members.

You odds of sitting next to a murderer on an airplane in the usa are better than sitting next to a USATT member. I would welcome a change in that fact either by increasing membership or by decreasing murder.