Asians vs Europeans

[RajaLoopah]

The premise is shallow.

Which explains #2 for other members to share their insights. For the ideas to branch out.

 

[Epid3xia]

The fact that top asian table tennis players are better than top european table tennis players is undeniable.

Now there are reasons. The biggest reasons are cultural and philosophical. Differences exist in: the cultur of expectation in performance and the philosophy of table tennis.

Asian parents have generally a much bigger expectation in the performance of their gifted children (see all the asian kids doing awesome stuff). The biggest difference between the european an asian parents is the limit of what too much pressure is to force their children to do better.
It is likely that european children would perform similar performance in the same enviroinment.

The asian trainers generally like the parents. Now either you dedicate more on your sport(or your talent) or you quit.

Where europeans generally say that's too harsh, asians would say you are not dedicated enough. Look at all those kung-fu-schools where those kids learn crazy stuff in crazy conditions. You be the judge what is too much and what isn't.

But better results appear with more dedication to beat yourself up more and more. And better results appear the earlier in your life you start to do that. But can this search of better results go too far? You judge.

The philosophy difference between european and asian teaching lies (in my eyes) mostly in the acceptance of your own style. Where european trainers let kids develope a much more personal style (which includes also more bad habits), asians are more harsh and force the child more to do the optimum. Well most eurospean born children would not want to train in a chinese enviroinment because it is too harsh.

The asian philosophy of table tennis is more focused on doing it right instead of doing it your way.

Now everybody would say, well the asian way is better. I would say, if you look only on performance, then it's true. But this performance comes at a price: your personality, your individuality matters very little. And this goes from sport through the whole society.

It doesn't look like the asian way is much better anymore if you look at the big picture. There is always a compromise.


That's my two cents. Or maybe ten considering how much i wrote. And i'm sure there are a lot of people who don't share my thoughts.

 

[Epid3xia]

Ps: one thing where the asians are worse than europeans is letting the talent and personality flourish and develop. When the training was not as efficient as today, the europeans could hold their own much better against the asians through their developed talent. Waldner for example was never as athletic as the asians. But he beat them on a regular basis.

For me the moral of the story is to take the best of both worlds an mix it. Eas to say, hard to imagine, and much harder to do. Guide the player with a strong hand but without destroying their personality.

It is like making a curly bonsai tree. You force him to grow into the right direction without harming and killing it.

 

[James Livesey]

China is the most populous nation in the world, and table tennis is one of if not the most popular sport. So technique aside, I think that aptly explains why they are the best. In regards to spin? When you add energy to the ball it either becomes speed or spin. On offensive strokes you generally want both, so I would not say that either Asians or Europeans can be lumped into more spin or less spin. It's down to individuals and playing styles and equipment. I think penholders and defensive players have the ability to generate the most spin. penholders have better movement of the wrist, and generally use more flexible blades than their offensive sh cousins. And defensive players use very slow blades and sometimes tacky rubbers on a soft sponge. Although they are usually countering topspin so I'm not so sure. I think in terms of the difference between the Chinese and European loops, whilst I do think the Chinese is more efficient, and therefore more k energy goes into the ball, how much energy is spin and how much is speed is down to the player.

 

[Baal]

1. Exclude China. Among men, who is better Europe or Asia? Answer is I would say that there is some edge to Europe. Not true for women.

2. China is unique in that they are about the only place in the world that literally turns children into professional players, sending them to almost full-time training facilities by age 10-11, where they live on-site, and pretty much only play TT, with very little school. This does not happen anyplace else. China devotes an order of magnitude more resources into TT than any other sport. There are coaches everywhere. Places to play everywhere.

3. As for cultural aspects -- the idea that Asian parents demand more excellence blah blah blah -- this is complete nonsense. If that was true, China would always win in all of the sports they undertake. But they don't. The best football is in Europe and South America. American women have dominated in gymnastics over China for awhile now, and that is a sport that demands every bit as much dedication as TT. That is just one example. China is great for the same reason Americans dominate in basketball. They care about it more than anyone else, by far. Like American basketball, they produce more high level talent than can ever be needed to fill professional rosters.

4. There is no one "Asian style". CNT coaches would not like Mitzutani (fishes too much, gives up distance form the table way too easily). Or Matsudaira (no power at all). Or JSH (they have not tolerated choppers in decades, but Korea still produces them). Or RSM (penholder, but no reverse backhand). ON the CNT, those guys might have never been seen in a Pro Tour event.

5. Because the Chinese are so dominant, there is not just one thing you can point to about their games that is better. It is probably a little bit of everything, among other things, being pushed all the time by their teammates at every level.

6. People copy in sports. Chinese coaches realized some advantages to the way the best European players were playing in the early 90s. Chinese players rapidly evolved. European coaches are not stupid, and they can see what Chinese players do, and they can do their best to emulate it -- but within the financial and infrastructure constraints that they have to live with, including the fact that nobody even in Europe puts a whole lot of money into the sport. I think the differences are in how people play will diminish as time goes on.

7. One thing I do notice, is ZJK, ML and FZD seem stronger from very close into the table than their European counterparts and that gives them an advantage. Guys like Mattenet, this why he will never beat any Chinese player in a Pro Tour event.

 

[Der_Echte]

I'd say Africans, or should I say Aruna!

ttpshot is closest to the prize.

The real answer are those produced by Rambo or Chick Norris. Their guns never run out of ammo, so their topspin ought to be never ending Tazmanian Devil rotating fast.

Should we ask Pnchy to chime in?

 

[NextLevel]

During the Rio Olympics, China, the best team in the world had a private facility built and setup to mimic the playing environment in the Olympic playing halls.

So you see, they didn't just come in with the best players. They also spent more money getting those players prepared for the Olympics during the Olympics than just about every other country combined (with the possible exception of Japan).

Doesn't that fact by itself tell you something?

Look at how many coaches often travel with the Chinese team to events. The time they spend at the Schlager academy training before WTTC events in Europe. The investments they put into analyzing top opponents and building training partners to mimic them. How many countries can see that ZJK is struggling with lefties and assign him Shang Kun, Xu Xin, Zhou Yu , Wang Chuqin and Hao Shuai just to work on his issues?

Men, the real questions are how people like Marcos Freitas, Quadri Aruna or even William Henzell ever got proficient at this sport.

 

[Epid3xia]

3. As for cultural aspects -- the idea that Asian parents demand more excellence blah blah blah -- this is complete nonsense. If that was true, China would always win in all of the sports they undertake. But they don't. The best football is in Europe and South America. American women have dominated in gymnastics over China for awhile now, and that is a sport that demands every bit as much dedication as TT. That is just one example. China is great for the same reason Americans dominate in basketball. They care about it more than anyone else, by far. Like American basketball, they produce more high level talent than can ever be needed to fill professional rosters.

What I said might be exaggerated. But I don't see it being wrong or invalid (where else do you see children play instruments or sports like adults?). I have just stated an overal generalized statement about the influence of culture that might be exaggerated in therms of how much impact it has on table tennis.

One might even argue that the chinese government is an example of this culture. Mind you that it is not completely true but I think you can see the smilarity between parents spending everything they have on their gifted child to become as good as it gets and china spending a lot on table tennis.

And yes the more resources you asign to a task the better the outcome.
Americans in american football, baseball, basketball.
Chinese in table tennis, diving.
etc.

 

[Baal]

During the Rio Olympics, China, the best team in the world had a private facility built and setup to mimic the playing environment in the Olympic playing halls.

So you see, they didn't just come in with the best players. They also spent more money getting those players prepared for the Olympics during the Olympics than just about every other country combined (with the possible exception of Japan).

Doesn't that fact by itself tell you something?

Look at how many coaches often travel with the Chinese team to events. The time they spend at the Schlager academy training before WTTC events in Europe. The investments they put into analyzing top opponents and building training partners to mimic them. How many countries can see that ZJK is struggling with lefties and assign him Shang Kun, Xu Xin, Zhou Yu , Wang Chuqin and Hao Shuai just to work on his issues?

Men, the real questions are how people like Marcos Freitas, Quadri Aruna or even William Henzell ever got proficient at this sport.

1 million up-votes for this.

And again, I still don't buy the cultural argument at any level (because why would it be unique to TT), except for one thing: China cares more about TT than anyone else.

Germany vs. Japan? Pretty even most years. Right now, maybe Portugal beats Korea.

 

[Epid3xia]

Well, I again learned something. I went to the ITTF ranking.
Top 10, 8 asians, 2 non-asians
Place 5-15, 11 asians, 4 non-asians (screw the chinese).
Top 20, 13 asians, 7 non-asians.
Top 30, 16 asians, 14 non-asians.
Top 40, 20 asians, 20 non-asians.
Top 60, 23 asians, 37 non-asians.

My point was overexaggerated. Learned my lesson.

*Edit: ITTF-ranking of the men

 

[ttpshot]

This is a light hearted thought experiments correct? As always it's starting to become which race/culture is the best for TT.

Going back to the spiniest loop, theoretically it'd be by a person with the best fast twitch muscle and strength. So give Jamaicans a racket and give them 8 hours of FH multi ball practice for 10 years. We'll see a wonderful result.

 

[BeGo]

This question has been boggling me many times now. Which ball is spinnier? the ones produced by Asians? or Europeans?
Let the battle begin

If I take this question literally,

Nowadays, almost all table tennis balls is produced in China, even for those bearing European brands. [emoji14]

But at least I can guarantee that the most even and roundest ball is the spinniest, so the manufacturing quality / precision take part. [emoji6]

Sent from my T1X Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

Well, I again learned something. I went to the ITTF ranking.
Top 10, 8 asians, 2 non-asians
Place 5-15, 11 asians, 4 non-asians (screw the chinese).
Top 20, 13 asians, 7 non-asians.
Top 30, 16 asians, 14 non-asians.
Top 40, 20 asians, 20 non-asians.
Top 60, 23 asians, 37 non-asians.

My point was overexaggerated. Learned my lesson.

*Edit: ITTF-ranking of the men

Think about how different that list would look if the Chinese could allow as many players as they like to enter pro tour events!

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

The premise is shallow. For too many reasons to list. But if you want to go on about it feel free to post a collection of overly broad generalizations.

One place to begin is to not lump all Asian players together.

The thread obviously meant no harm, and so If you find the premise too "shallow" you are probably best not commenting on it. He just wanted to start a conversation on a topic he finds interesting and to gain peoples opinions, not get judged on whether his post is good or not. Obviously lumping Asia players together Is not ideal, but you could have just pointed that out instead of questioning the premise of what is just a harmless thread designed to create conversation.

I don't want to sound harsh I just don't like seeing people being put down when they are just creating conversation. Its the kind of attitude that stops people creating threads, which is something that should be encouraged.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Epid3xia]

I stumbled uppon these videos below. Maybe I wasn't so wrong after all:

Youtube will show you even more such videos...

 

[Epid3xia]

This is a light hearted thought experiments correct? As always it's starting to become which race/culture is the best for TT.

Going back to the spiniest loop, theoretically it'd be by a person with the best fast twitch muscle and strength. So give Jamaicans a racket and give them 8 hours of FH multi ball practice for 10 years. We'll see a wonderful result.

For me it is not about race. I would like to use non-race connected words. But to make my point understandable it is nearly impossible to do so. But to say it short: for me it is more about culture when I talk about differences of people living in different areas of the world.

 

[ttpshot]

I stumbled uppon these videos below. Maybe I wasn't so wrong after all:

Youtube will show you even more such videos...

Yeah, this year's cub(U10) and bambi(U8) nationals were amazing.
I remembered a few years ago how much the standard had improved from 10 years ago when Itoh and Hirano were bambis. But this year has been the best ever.

 

[Baal]

The thread obviously meant no harm, and so If you find the premise too "shallow" you are probably best not commenting on it. He just wanted to start a conversation on a topic he finds interesting and to gain peoples opinions, not get judged on whether his post is good or not. Obviously lumping Asia players together Is not ideal, but you could have just pointed that out instead of questioning the premise of what is just a harmless thread designed to create conversation.

I don't want to sound harsh I just don't like seeing people being put down when they are just creating conversation. Its the kind of attitude that stops people creating threads, which is something that should be encouraged.

Just my 2 cents...

Sometimes these sorts of threads end up not so harmless and at first the innocence of the question wasnt obvious to me ( once I realized he wasn't talking about actual balls). They perpetuate stereotypes, especially when he used a term like Asian instead of Chinese. . But this thread is going ok.

 

[James Livesey]

For me it is not about race. I would like to use non-race connected words. But to make my point understandable it is nearly impossible to do so. But to say it short: for me it is more about culture when I talk about differences of people living in different areas of the world.

I don't think anyone here is arguing about race in terms of genetics. Asian meaning coming from an Asian culture/country. And by culture, only table tennis culture. It's not about eating with chopsticks or being able to speak English, it's about parents teaching their kids, having lots of clubs, public discussion, table tennis on tv, and so on.

And although it's controversial, race does play a part in all sports, although in TT, I don't think very much. It's so much a skill game that the discrepancies in physique do not make a noticeable difference. I suppose most obviously there is height and wing span. But I think there is a lot of debate about what is the optimal height in table tennis. And although there is different averages amongst genetic groups, there's much more discrepancy within a group than such things as hair or bone mass.