Asking for Strategy against these 2 Players

[dingyibvs]

YES, you bring up the related point that even many advanced players do not know how/when/what to do for a quality push to get them out of trouble, avoid trouble, or set the opponent up for trouble.

I still believe though that deeper low non attacking shots would have given him better percentages overall vs Herr Manfred.

When I saw a comment about manfred's serves, I did not think the OP would handle them well, but OP did not miss on many of manfred's blatant illegal serves.

I'm speaking from experience here lol, nobody wants to practice pushes! I'd love to practice it some more, but I only get an opportunity once a week with my practice partner, and we've gotta cram so much into that one session.

 

[Zezima]

Manfred:
I was surprised with the first 3 points where I looped to his FH and got straight winners. But prepared for Days mentally to do just that. Other than that I only remember that I had success with long sideback or only side or sidetopspin serves to his long backhand and then not miss the next ball.

His own serve was weird. It had a kick, so initially the ball would come slow (so I think its no spin) but then it kicks and comes way faster and I can only hold the racket. But against him that was more than enough because he wouldn´t do much with the next ball. He has a good spinny FH but mostly predictable to my fh.

Lots of unforced errors. But it was good I kept the attacking mindset. The dealbreaker was to find the right balance of offensive and defensive playstyle. Going all out I lost so after turning down a bit I would constanly win.

I can do deep pushes, but thought thats something I don´t want to practise. I practised keeping short balls short and long balls I tried to loop mostly. Technically I have a really good deep push especially with short/halflong balls that have slight backspin atleast.

I couldn´t believe me eyes that I was down 1-5 in the 5th set. Took a timeout and then won like 11-6 or something.

Ines:

She was by far the best player that day. I think she could have beat me if she returned my service better. Which I felt after the 2nd Set. First 2 Sets I had no problems. She has a mean FH placement where I couldn´t predict where she is gonna shoot it - Sideswipe?? Overall more consistent. But woke up in the last set and focused on good service again.

Weird part was I didn´t know why this game felt so hard after the 2 sets. I don´t even know what she changed playstyle wise. It felt the same. Was also surprised to hit some countertopspin which I never could do before.

Stefan:
His FH serves were really good. It would drop on my side and then go flat sideways. Struggled a lot with the timing on when to hit the ball. Defaulted to just doing no spinny drives.

placed the balls to the middle and to his backhand mostly like discussed. He got very impatient. He would try to kill balls that I have played to his elbow. He would fall my reverse Pendulum service that I did with no spin/slight topspin.


Overall very happy with how I played. I did both winged loops even did some countertopspins successfully and was very surprised with my service game.

I will also note down deep pushes for todays games. I just don´t get many opportunity unless I have the service. Because they all did mostly long serves.

 

[Zezima]

Also something I want to note is that Manfred is 75years old. I would be happy if I could play as good as him at his age.

 

[Zezima]

Today I won 2 games and lost 1 game. Lost by 2 points in each set. He had a very good side backspin into my fh or mid. My Rubber instantly eat the spin and fell into the net. I couldn't find the right power to loop it sadly.

How can you calculate the amount of backspin when the ball has sidespin aswell? I was good with my serves aswell but he almost always won with his serve. Idk maybe I need to set up the roboter and configure that serve and practise it. Because no-one on my club can serve that much sidebackspin

 

[blahness]

Watched a bit more. So there is a technical problem with the BH because it's the upper body (the entire upper body not just one part) doesn't carry the ball - it's quite arm driven. This is also why you missed quite a bit of BH loops - you're not really powering the loop directly with the legs and the body (there doesn't seem to be any hip rotation at all), and thus when the ball is in some weird spot you're not using your body to adjust but just the arm which has very limited capacity to adjust. That said the arm movement looks good - it's just that you have to add the body usage further. With BH there are a lot of options for body usage but typically what I do is rotate hip slightly by bringing right knee forward and launch the ball by transfer weight almost entirely to your right foot by "stepping" on the right foot. You can watch a bit more Patrick Franziska coaching Dan's BH (especially on body usage).

The other thing is that tactically - once you got the upper hand by FH looping and the opponent already retreated from the table you need to commit to continue the pressure with subsequent FH loops - there's no point using BH because it's a weaker shot and there's less adjustment room with BH. Gotta drill the footwork to reach all balls with FH - if it is to your left you need the pivot footwork (left - right - left), if it is to your right you need to do a lunge + crossover step if necessary. Make sure you use your core to pull your body back into ready position after a loop (also needs to be drilled) so that you're always ready for the next FH loop.

This also applies to situations where ppl just do junky high balls to your BH as a "serve receive", for e.g. off your FH pendulum serve. There is almost no point to use BH, just crush them with a strong FH loop. You also need to respect the spin even if the ball is high. For e.g. Manfred is simply doing a standard BH chop which produces clockwise sidebackspin (can sometimes be quite strong), so you need to adjust by coming a bit lower than the ball and brushing from the back of the ball to the top of the ball (never the right side otherwise you'll be super vulnerable to getting overwhelmed by all of the sidespin). If they do a BH sideswipe or touch the balls on the side with the FH it will produce anticlockwise sidebackspin which means that if you loop that with FH you need to hook it a bit (touch it slightly on the right side).

The more backspin it has, the more you have to lean forward at your hips to lower your eye level so that you can use the body to generate more lifting force. Lowering the arm without the body is usually useless against heavy backspin. With less backspin just go forward more. Sometimes, if you're not in optimal position or you only have a vague idea of the spin or if the opponent retreated way too much, you can increase your percentages by brushing the ball hard and going for a lot more spin than speed.

These semi-high balls can be a trap because a lot of ppl just treat them as easy balls and don't respect the incoming spin variation and think all of these balls are the same.

Once you trained to punish these balls decisively you will win against these passive ppl much more easily. I find it a bit irritating because they're not even fighting for the 1st attack or a positional advantage and are just hoping for mistakes from their receiver.

 

[Zezima]

@blahness

Yesterday I realized my Tripod for filming is broken. So couldn´t film my yesterdays games.
Even though I won 2 games and lost 1. I missed like ~15 balls. Not just Edge hits just missing entirely.

I think sometimes I should let the ball drop down more if I want to go for "spin" going at the highest point doesn´t work for me if I just want to spin the ball.

You are right they chop my FH pendulum serve (long) a lot. But I also get a weird high shortish or even high to the baseline (even harder for me) and those are really hard. Because the ball has no "tempo" but it has backspin. Usually ends with me not having a compact contact and missing the ball.

I feel like what you described for the BH stroke is too advanced. You don´t really need the hip rotation not at our level atleast. I am quite happy with the power and spin I can generate if the ball comes to my hitting zone. So I rather focus on footwork here.

The other thing is that tactically - once you got the upper hand by FH looping and the opponent already retreated from the table you need to commit to continue the pressure with subsequent FH loops

True. Usually happens when I have used the FH loop and the next ball gets blocked into my elbow or BH. And because they block high and I train hitting at the highest point or at the fall I overshoot when I hit it when its rising. So sometimes I just "drive" with barely any spin high to his backhand.

I do have to keep this in mind.

Manfred is simply doing a standard BH chop which produces clockwise sidebackspin (can sometimes be quite strong), so you need to adjust by coming a bit lower than the ball and brushing from the back of the ball to the top of the ball (never the right side otherwise you'll be super vulnerable to getting overwhelmed by all of the sidespin). If they do a BH sideswipe or touch the balls on the side with the FH it will produce anticlockwise sidebackspin which means that if you loop that with FH you need to hook it a bit (touch it slightly on the right side).

Is this from my perspective? I would get a ball that is counterclockwise no? - on my FH pendulum serve I mean. I really struggle to understand this. Isn´t there a video about this?
Sometimes the opp spin overwhelmes me a lot. And I don´t quite understand where to hit the ball to eat the spin less (on long balls specially)

 

[dingyibvs]

@blahness

Yesterday I realized my Tripod for filming is broken. So couldn´t film my yesterdays games.
Even though I won 2 games and lost 1. I missed like ~15 balls. Not just Edge hits just missing entirely.

I think sometimes I should let the ball drop down more if I want to go for "spin" going at the highest point doesn´t work for me if I just want to spin the ball.

You are right they chop my FH pendulum serve (long) a lot. But I also get a weird high shortish or even high to the baseline (even harder for me) and those are really hard. Because the ball has no "tempo" but it has backspin. Usually ends with me not having a compact contact and missing the ball.

I feel like what you described for the BH stroke is too advanced. You don´t really need the hip rotation not at our level atleast. I am quite happy with the power and spin I can generate if the ball comes to my hitting zone. So I rather focus on footwork here.


True. Usually happens when I have used the FH loop and the next ball gets blocked into my elbow or BH. And because they block high and I train hitting at the highest point or at the fall I overshoot when I hit it when its rising. So sometimes I just "drive" with barely any spin high to his backhand.

I do have to keep this in mind.



Is this from my perspective? I would get a ball that is counterclockwise no? - on my FH pendulum serve I mean. I really struggle to understand this. Isn´t there a video about this?
Sometimes the opp spin overwhelmes me a lot. And I don´t quite understand where to hit the ball to eat the spin less (on long balls specially)

I do recommend focusing on footwork first as well. You can't use your body before you learn footwork. I tried that at first (disadvantage of learning without a coach, for sure), and I ended up having a big disconnect between my body rotation and my arm swing, leading to me subconsciously trying to correct it with my wrist at the very end of the stroke and resulting in a wrist injury that took many months to heal. In order to properly use body rotation, you need to first be able to consistently place the ball a bit to the left of you, and you need to have your whole body at the optimal height (e.g. it needs to be lower relative to the ball the later you take the shot). So the first thing is to focus on how to move your whole body for each ball.

When you manage to do that, the game will slow down dramatically for you. You'll find that you have so much more time to execute each shot, so much so that you actually have to learn to be patient and not strike the ball too early sometimes. Every shot will also become far easier to execute, and you'll be amazed at the improvement in consistency and quality as it's synergistic with everything else you've been working on.

 

[blahness]

@blahness

Yesterday I realized my Tripod for filming is broken. So couldn´t film my yesterdays games.
Even though I won 2 games and lost 1. I missed like ~15 balls. Not just Edge hits just missing entirely.

I think sometimes I should let the ball drop down more if I want to go for "spin" going at the highest point doesn´t work for me if I just want to spin the ball.

You are right they chop my FH pendulum serve (long) a lot. But I also get a weird high shortish or even high to the baseline (even harder for me) and those are really hard. Because the ball has no "tempo" but it has backspin. Usually ends with me not having a compact contact and missing the ball.

I feel like what you described for the BH stroke is too advanced. You don´t really need the hip rotation not at our level atleast. I am quite happy with the power and spin I can generate if the ball comes to my hitting zone. So I rather focus on footwork here.


True. Usually happens when I have used the FH loop and the next ball gets blocked into my elbow or BH. And because they block high and I train hitting at the highest point or at the fall I overshoot when I hit it when its rising. So sometimes I just "drive" with barely any spin high to his backhand.

I do have to keep this in mind.



Is this from my perspective? I would get a ball that is counterclockwise no? - on my FH pendulum serve I mean. I really struggle to understand this. Isn´t there a video about this?
Sometimes the opp spin overwhelmes me a lot. And I don´t quite understand where to hit the ball to eat the spin less (on long balls specially)

All of the sidespin related videos are in Chinese unfortunately.

Yes it is from your perspective. If opponent does a normal BH push against your FH pendulum it will rotate clockwise (it will curve towards your left). If they are BH sideswiping or fading the push or if they touch the ball on their right side then their return will rotate anticlockwise (it will curve towards your right side).

Unfortunately with inverted, sidespin is a real issue and you definitely need to be precise about reading it and dealing with it. Without precision it is quite hard to maintain consistency and shot quality.

 

[NextLevel]

I play 2h soccer once a week sundays aswell. Sometimes I get injuries and have to skip the next few days. The next 2 days I would get soreness (which got less and less combined with fitness training). I would feel like a grandpa afterwards before I added full body workout.
To be honest before (till like a year ago) I didn´t loop as much as I am doing right now. Each loop feels like a squat on its own. But good to hear it fixed for you!
I might also just exhaust myself too much. I skipped workout last 2 days so didn´t do any sports activities other than just simple walking. Even skipped Sunday football (not gonna call it soccer lol).
Kind of excited already its gonna start in 4h. Don´t wanna disappoint me or anyone who gave me good advice.

I don´t know about a free good just a simple cut video software. So I am just gonna ask my brother to record each point.

Lightworks is not very simple but you can use youtube to learn it and it can be used to create what you want for free.

 

[Zezima]

All of the sidespin related videos are in Chinese unfortunately.

Yes it is from your perspective. If opponent does a normal BH push against your FH pendulum it will rotate clockwise (it will curve towards your left). If they are BH sideswiping or fading the push or if they touch the ball on their right side then their return will rotate anticlockwise (it will curve towards your right side).

Unfortunately with inverted, sidespin is a real issue and you definitely need to be precise about reading it and dealing with it. Without precision it is quite hard to maintain consistency and shot quality.

Why cant I just loop it at the back of the ball and just accelerate? I feel like "hooking" or opening up the bat kind of hitting the ball from the left (from my perspective) would make my shot even more inconsistent (hitting wise). Like I am already missing tons of balls completely.

And why is the outerside of my armpit of my right arm hurting? Wrong technique from yesterdays game? Its very sore. Arm/shoulder connection muscle right outer side of the armpit to be more precise.
My shoulder seems fine no soreness or anything there. Only that "small" part on the side of the body.

I really need a very very simple video cut software. Just cutting functionality. Maybe I will find something.

 

[blahness]

Why cant I just loop it at the back of the ball and just accelerate? I feel like "hooking" or opening up the bat kind of hitting the ball from the left (from my perspective) would make my shot even more inconsistent (hitting wise). Like I am already missing tons of balls completely.

And why is the outerside of my armpit of my right arm hurting? Wrong technique from yesterdays game? Its very sore. Arm/shoulder connection muscle right outer side of the armpit to be more precise.
My shoulder seems fine no soreness or anything there. Only that "small" part on the side of the body.

I really need a very very simple video cut software. Just cutting functionality. Maybe I will find something.

Yes you can brute force loop most balls on the back, it is just not as error tolerant compared to riding the sidespin. Even against pure backspin balls without much sidespin component, it feels a lot better to contact it a bit more on the side to increase dwell time and avoid the strong spin axis. You can always experiment around. Anyway this is not even my concept but from Fang Yinchi as well as Yin Hang, and personally it made a huge difference for me in terms of loop landing rates, because I serve very heavy sidespin balls (be it sideunder or sidetop) and often get heavy sidespin balls back.

 

[Zezima]

Yes you can brute force loop most balls on the back, it is just not as error tolerant compared to riding the sidespin. Even against pure backspin balls without much sidespin component, it feels a lot better to contact it a bit more on the side to increase dwell time and avoid the strong spin axis. You can always experiment around. Anyway this is not even my concept but from Fang Yinchi as well as Yin Hang, and personally it made a huge difference for me in terms of loop landing rates, because I serve very heavy sidespin balls (be it sideunder or sidetop) and often get heavy sidespin balls back.

So hitting on the axis where the ball is not rotating or going with the spin?

 

[Colestt]

Why is this so easy for others but hard for me. Every single one of his serves looked the same to me, and I would've been popping them up high.

One thing I noticed is he has a lot more toss on his side top. His backspin is right out of his hand. Really bad. If we're talking about red shirt guy.

If you don't want to call it you can at least use the tell.

 

[blahness]

So hitting on the axis where the ball is not rotating or going with the spin?

Yep pretty much. It is a bit of a 'cheat' i use to increase my loop landing rates.

 

[Zezima]

Yep pretty much. It is a bit of a 'cheat' i use to increase my loop landing rates.

Whats the difference between pure sidespin balls brushing at the back at 3 o clock vs no spin Balls vs light backspin balls?

I also realized my strokes are too long. Especially during serve receive. But thats also because I wanna spin the ball (sometimes it goes over even though it had backspin on it). Do I just accept that I cant just give all out spinny balls on every ball except when I get heavy backspin? I seem to perform best against heavy pure backspin - mostlikely also because of my long stroke