BREAKING: Ma Long & Fan Zhendong boycott CHINA OPEN!

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I know that's meant as a rhetorical question, but let's try to answer it anyway using the available facts only. Fact: the players' deeply trusted top-coach, the very one making a deep mark for a long time now and with an unrivalled track record at that, suddenly gets sidetracked, at a very inopportune moment in time to boot — by ‘the authorities’. Now I'm not saying or stipulating that an organisation as large and complex as that necessarily acts as a single, consistent entity. But there you are.

So yes, I think ‘the government’ actually already did something severe to the top players, and I actually am under the impression that this is what the players have rallied against. Now would it be greatly surprising to see the same entity take further steps to assert its authority? History, recent and past, offers nothing but deeply grim analogies there.

That's a good point! I do agree that this situation has had a very damaging effect on the players. I'm not sure if this has already been said on this forum but the reason LGL was told to step down was because he was being investigated. One of LGL colleagues had found to be gambling/ betting a lot in a bad way so they had to investigate LGL for these actions as well. It has not been confirmed as true but that was the reason he had been told to step down. They did not want a 'corrupt' person leading the CNT. I cannot assure for the validity for this information as you always need to take information from social media with a pinch of salt.
 
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One of LGL colleagues had found to be gambling/ betting a lot in a bad way so they had to investigate LGL for these actions as well. It has not been confirmed as true but that was the reason he had been told to step down. They did not want a 'corrupt' person leading the CNT. I cannot assure for the validity for this information as you always need to take information from social media with a pinch of salt.

I'm not fond of this kind of reasoning. There's a lot of hearsay in it, which isn't good, but there's also a deep fallacy in there. You're talking about Kong Linghui here, who has been accused — be it falsely or not — mainly of getting into troubles relating to gambling debts. I don't necessarily put much faith in such talk, with smearing peoples reputation being one of the main tools used to discredit and take down the higher-ranked. Classic show trial material.

Let's be civilised about this, and start out with the basic axiom of civility that everybody's innocent until proven guilty. Where the proof of guilt bears a substantial burden.

But that's not even the fallacy I'm most worried about here. Even if KLH made a boo-boo in his personal life that doesn't mean LGL can in any way held responsible for it. There is a gut-level way of primitive guilty-by-association reasoning at work there: KLH is tainted, which is bad for the reputation of the CNT, which is LGL's responsibility. That line of does not hold water, or to put it bluntly, that's incontinent reasoning.
 
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I'm not fond of this kind of reasoning. There's a lot of hearsay in it, which isn't good, but there's also a deep fallacy in there. You're talking about Kong Linghui here, who has been accused — be it falsely or not — mainly of getting into troubles relating to gambling debts. I don't necessarily put much faith in such talk, with smearing peoples reputation being one of the main tools used to discredit and take down the higher-ranked. Classic show trial material.

Let's be civilised about this, and start out with the basic axiom of civility that everybody's innocent until proven guilty. Where the proof of guilt bears a substantial burden.

But that's not even the fallacy I'm most worried about here. Even if KLH made a boo-boo in his personal life that doesn't mean LGL can in any way held responsible for it. There is a gut-level way of primitive guilty-by-association reasoning at work there: KLH is tainted, which is bad for the reputation of the CNT, which is LGL's responsibility. That line of does not hold water, or to put it bluntly, that's incontinent reasoning.

I'm not saying that it is the entire reasoning behind LGL being told to step down, I was just stating it as a piece of information that could be used. Nothing else so I'm not sure why you're saying I'm using it as reasoning. Other people people have stated opinions that includes deep fallacy supported by weak evidence as well so I don't see anyone calling them out when clearly this is more useful information that can be discussed instead of one sided opinions.

Also, I don't think I made this very clear. This is from what I've heard so do not think that this is what I completely believe, I am just simply recalling facts I have heard that may be of some relevance. LGL is being investigated for these actions, this has nothing to do with smearing people's reputation. From what I read I don't think LGL is believe held responsible for KLH's mistakes. I'm not too sure what is going on here and I'm just trying to give some information that might be helpful, I just don't like it when people are basing negative opinions off very small experiences and voicing them as if they are fact. You can state your opinion but don't say it in such a confident manner. I'm not trying to correct anyone's information about this situation because I cannot say if it is true of false.
 
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Been following this thread since the 23rd. Very interesting, I have a few thoughts and questions.
1. would gambling be a taboo?
I mean, there could be several reasons for moving or 'promoting' someone, at first I thought it could be something like sexual relations... but it's just gambling? Or is this just a guess due to the KLH case.
2. Even if right and left wing support and know the real case, why/how does this relate to some ZJK fans calling them traitors etc? (Reading further back) clearly, even though it's possibly more than 60% it sill can't be 100% support.
3. I still wonder what 'punished severely' relates to. I don't believe they'd be taken off the team, and even if, wouldn't moving to another country be into serious consideration? (I know it's been jokingly suggested :p). Even though China is communistic I still believe the former cases like 1966 (superstars suicide?) Etv. Can't possibly be made to happen in 2017.

And lastly.
Even though their post on weibo are marked as using the same devices, do you honestly think Weibo personel wouldn't be able to manipulate that after deleting their former post and then posting the apology?
Or does everyone think the players and coaches did the exact same thing. I'm not saying it's impossible the players did that one their own, but I'm far from convinced.
I'm studying Web development and if administrators of a page would want to force such a post, and are smart enough to 'use' the same device, it would be really simple to manufacture.

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w ww.ittf.com/2017/06/25/updated-ittf-statement-ma-long-fan-zhendong-xu-xin-china-open-forfeits/

And the ITTF deleted the comment section, as everyone was against them. Funny to see that they act just like the GAS.

(Sorry I can't post the link properly as it's my first comment on TTD)

Welcome to TTD Luke :) 5 posts and you will be able to post links :) Avoids internet spam bots :D
 
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I find it funny how all the americans talk so negatively of China from a few experiences making it seem like it is barely livable there. But, I can assure you that the majority of the 1.4bn people that live in China are not affected by these problems. These small problems that you read or hear are insignificant in painting the picture of what really happens there so stop talking so negatively and so almost arrogantly to try and give your view which is not 100% valid. You are, like I said before, misleading many people about a different culture with a few bad experiences which are not representative of what really happens. It is just ignorance, the main culprit is definitely baal.

"My wife's take is that the whole thing from top down is business as usual in China, and happens there daily.", where is the validity in this statement? It is just a way of deceiving others that may not know much by using other views to back up your own.

You seem upset at what I wrote, so let me clarify a few things. First, my wife is Chinese. Second, we own property in China, which we bought after we got married, the idea being to divide our time between there and the US after we retire, which is still our plan, and hopefully it works ou --, and if it doesn't it is more likely to be because of stupid things my government does. Ironically, it is about a 90 minute drive from Chengdu. We would not do that if we thought it was some sort of communist hell hole. We quite like it, especially Sichuan province. I believe that the players will not disappear, or be imprisoned, and they won't be suspended, and either Ma Long or FZD will win the Olympics in 2020. China is not North Korea. It is a lot freer than Saudi Arabia! But the players will feel some pain we won't see, I am sure they will take a big financial hit, and if they weren't superstar athletes, the hits they would take would be a lot more severe. You can see this by the very fact that their social media accounts were frozen, and clearly they have been compelled to allow the posting of these silly apologies in their names, and you can see it in the wording of these "apologies". That is simply amazing to people in the west. I have no idea why they fired LGL. We may never know. He isn't going to come back.

But..... here is the part that is true, and is what I meant. China controls and censors social media as much as they can. There are limits to what they can control, and anonymous bloggers and posters there have increased the freedom of discourse there more than they had in the past, and the government reluctantly tolerates it. Still, China does not like large visible protests. The legal and judicial systems are not what people in the west would tolerate (ask anyone in Hong Kong). And I know for a FACT that people who protested in Sichuan show they were dealt with after the large earthquake were punished for it. You can see it in high visibility cases if you have opened up a news paper in the last few years. And yes, lawyers who have acted too stringently in defense of their clients have had problems of their own.

Even the wording in the "apologies" the players were compelled to have posted in their own names paints a clear picture. China does not tolerate dissent. Ordinary people live perfectly reasonable ordinary lives, the quality of which has risen quite a lot in the last 30 years. But you can't rock the boat, and importantly, you can't cause powerful party officials to lose face unless you are an equally or more powerful party official. And the consequences of that happen every day to ordinary people.

By the way, I am a college professor, and one of the places where the Communist party is particularly vigilant in crushing any sign of dissent is in universities. Universities have a president and there is also a top party official assigned to the university, and they are not the same people, and the latter is there to keep an eye on the former.
 
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w ww.ittf.com/2017/06/25/updated-ittf-statement-ma-long-fan-zhendong-xu-xin-china-open-forfeits/

And the ITTF deleted the comment section, as everyone was against them. Funny to see that they act just like the GAS.

(Sorry I can't post the link properly as it's my first comment on TTD)
Very interesting. I wonder if China has put pressure on ITTF to kill people's voice.

Remind me of the 1988 Olympic game when Carl Lewis was tested positive three times. But the US Olympic Committee overturned the decision made by IOC. So shame on IOC if a country can defy international rule. Rule is dead if not enforced.

Shame on ITTF because they side with the CCP to suppress freedom of speech.

Passionate about TT
 
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Why did politics enter? Somebody thought it was a good idea to make LGL quietly disappear. Hard to know the truth about why from the outside. And then Ma Long and FZD felt like they needed to take a stand about the reorganization of table tennis. They had to know that they would raise a huge storm, and that had to be their intent. Beyond that, it is really hard to know. Were they too young to think it through? Or are they counting on the fact that their fame and popularity will protect them and allow it to shed light on the GSA (in which case they have succeeded). But in any case, they were doing something they thought was good for all athletes in China.
 
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You seem upset at what I wrote, so let me clarify a few things. First, my wife is Chinese. Second, we own property in China, which we bought after we got married, the idea being to divide our time between there and the US after we retire, which is still our plan, and hopefully it works ou --, and if it doesn't it is more likely to be because of stupid things my government does. Ironically, it is about a 90 minute drive from Chengdu. We would not do that if we thought it was some sort of communist hell hole. We quite like it, especially Sichuan province. I believe that the players will not disappear, or be imprisoned, and they won't be suspended, and either Ma Long or FZD will win the Olympics in 2020. China is not North Korea. It is a lot freer than Saudi Arabia! But the players will feel some pain we won't see, I am sure they will take a big financial hit, and if they weren't superstar athletes, the hits they would take would be a lot more severe. You can see this by the very fact that their social media accounts were frozen, and clearly they have been compelled to allow the posting of these silly apologies in their names, and you can see it in the wording of these "apologies". That is simply amazing to people in the west. I have no idea why they fired LGL. We may never know. He isn't going to come back.

But..... here is the part that is true, and is what I meant. China controls and censors social media as much as they can. There are limits to what they can control, and anonymous bloggers and posters there have increased the freedom of discourse there more than they had in the past, and the government reluctantly tolerates it. Still, China does not like large visible protests. The legal and judicial systems are not what people in the west would tolerate (ask anyone in Hong Kong). And I know for a FACT that people who protested in Sichuan show they were dealt with after the large earthquake were punished for it. You can see it in high visibility cases if you have opened up a news paper in the last few years. And yes, lawyers who have acted too stringently in defense of their clients have had problems of their own.

Even the wording in the "apologies" the players were compelled to have posted in their own names paints a clear picture. China does not tolerate dissent. Ordinary people live perfectly reasonable ordinary lives, the quality of which has risen quite a lot in the last 30 years. But you can't rock the boat, and importantly, you can't cause powerful party officials to lose face unless you are an equally or more powerful party official. And the consequences of that happen every day to ordinary people.

By the way, I am a college professor, and one of the places where the Communist party is particularly vigilant in crushing any sign of dissent is in universities. Universities have a president and there is also a top party official assigned to the university, and they are not the same people, and the latter is there to keep an eye on the former.
This is true.
 
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You seem upset at what I wrote, so let me clarify a few things. First, my wife is Chinese. Second, we own property in China, which we bought after we got married, the idea being to divide our time between there and the US after we retire, which is still our plan, and hopefully it works ou --, and if it doesn't it is more likely to be because of stupid things my government does. Ironically, it is about a 90 minute drive from Chengdu. We would not do that if we thought it was some sort of communist hell hole. We quite like it, especially Sichuan province. I believe that the players will not disappear, or be imprisoned, and they won't be suspended, and either Ma Long or FZD will win the Olympics in 2020. China is not North Korea. It is a lot freer than Saudi Arabia! But the players will feel some pain we won't see, I am sure they will take a big financial hit, and if they weren't superstar athletes, the hits they would take would be a lot more severe. You can see this by the very fact that their social media accounts were frozen, and clearly they have been compelled to allow the posting of these silly apologies in their names, and you can see it in the wording of these "apologies". That is simply amazing to people in the west. I have no idea why they fired LGL. We may never know. He isn't going to come back.

But..... here is the part that is true, and is what I meant. China controls and censors social media as much as they can. There are limits to what they can control, and anonymous bloggers and posters there have increased the freedom of discourse there more than they had in the past, and the government reluctantly tolerates it. Still, China does not like large visible protests. The legal and judicial systems are not what people in the west would tolerate (ask anyone in Hong Kong). And I know for a FACT that people who protested in Sichuan show they were dealt with after the large earthquake were punished for it. You can see it in high visibility cases if you have opened up a news paper in the last few years. And yes, lawyers who have acted too stringently in defense of their clients have had problems of their own.

Even the wording in the "apologies" the players were compelled to have posted in their own names paints a clear picture. China does not tolerate dissent. Ordinary people live perfectly reasonable ordinary lives, the quality of which has risen quite a lot in the last 30 years. But you can't rock the boat, and importantly, you can't cause powerful party officials to lose face unless you are an equally or more powerful party official. And the consequences of that happen every day to ordinary people.

By the way, I am a college professor, and one of the places where the Communist party is particularly vigilant in crushing any sign of dissent is in universities. Universities have a president and there is also a top party official assigned to the university, and they are not the same people, and the latter is there to keep an eye on the former.

Thanks for clearing that up. I now realise that you do have a good understanding of what is going on and I take back any over the top comments I made about you being ignorant. However, when I first read your comments it sounded as if it was to just display strong negative opinions about China and that slightly irritated me because some people's views are easily formed by reading comments on the internet so I thought that by you only stating the negatives it would make others believe that that is the only reality to the situation. I can see that your opinions are not biased and there is nothing to complain about. Sorry for the inconvenience...
 
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I'm not saying that it is the entire reasoning behind LGL being told to step down, I was just stating it as a piece of information that could be used. Nothing else so I'm not sure why you're saying I'm using it as reasoning. Other people people have stated opinions that includes deep fallacy supported by weak evidence as well so I don't see anyone calling them out when clearly this is more useful information that can be discussed instead of one sided opinions.

Also, I don't think I made this very clear. This is from what I've heard so do not think that this is what I completely believe, I am just simply recalling facts I have heard that may be of some relevance. LGL is being investigated for these actions, this has nothing to do with smearing people's reputation. From what I read I don't think LGL is believe held responsible for KLH's mistakes. I'm not too sure what is going on here and I'm just trying to give some information that might be helpful, I just don't like it when people are basing negative opinions off very small experiences and voicing them as if they are fact. You can state your opinion but don't say it in such a confident manner. I'm not trying to correct anyone's information about this situation because I cannot say if it is true of false.

My apologies if I offended you. I did not mean to.
 
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Baal, I am not being paranoid , but the demographic of a american university professors owning Property in Chengdu won't be that large, so I would not disclose that kind of information in this forum, especially on a topic that has so much attention from China . @Sakumi is a classic case of what I mentioned earlier, he / she understands perfectly well the problems within China , but in the so called "Chinese tradition" does not want it to be discussed outside their community.
Now it has nothing to do with being left wing or right wing , or liberal or conservative or communist or captalist , or whatever other category people have devised, the point there is no progress without dialogue , and any culture / country / party that suppresses dialogue , freedom of expression , human rights is oppressive . Does not matter how many copies of Das Capital you have read when you were a kid .... also there is a surprising variation in the quality of english Sakumi writes , not saying anything but just observing ...
You seem upset at what I wrote, so let me clarify a few things. First, my wife is Chinese. Second, we own property in China, which we bought after we got married, the idea being to divide our time between there and the US after we retire, which is still our plan, and hopefully it works ou --, and if it doesn't it is more likely to be because of stupid things my government does. Ironically, it is about a 90 minute drive from Chengdu. We would not do that if we thought it was some sort of communist hell hole. We quite like it, especially Sichuan province. I believe that the players will not disappear, or be imprisoned, and they won't be suspended, and either Ma Long or FZD will win the Olympics in 2020. China is not North Korea. It is a lot freer than Saudi Arabia! But the players will feel some pain we won't see, I am sure they will take a big financial hit, and if they weren't superstar athletes, the hits they would take would be a lot more severe. You can see this by the very fact that their social media accounts were frozen, and clearly they have been compelled to allow the posting of these silly apologies in their names, and you can see it in the wording of these "apologies". That is simply amazing to people in the west. I have no idea why they fired LGL. We may never know. He isn't going to come back.

But..... here is the part that is true, and is what I meant. China controls and censors social media as much as they can. There are limits to what they can control, and anonymous bloggers and posters there have increased the freedom of discourse there more than they had in the past, and the government reluctantly tolerates it. Still, China does not like large visible protests. The legal and judicial systems are not what people in the west would tolerate (ask anyone in Hong Kong). And I know for a FACT that people who protested in Sichuan show they were dealt with after the large earthquake were punished for it. You can see it in high visibility cases if you have opened up a news paper in the last few years. And yes, lawyers who have acted too stringently in defense of their clients have had problems of their own.

Even the wording in the "apologies" the players were compelled to have posted in their own names paints a clear picture. China does not tolerate dissent. Ordinary people live perfectly reasonable ordinary lives, the quality of which has risen quite a lot in the last 30 years. But you can't rock the boat, and importantly, you can't cause powerful party officials to lose face unless you are an equally or more powerful party official. And the consequences of that happen every day to ordinary people.

By the way, I am a college professor, and one of the places where the Communist party is particularly vigilant in crushing any sign of dissent is in universities. Universities have a president and there is also a top party official assigned to the university, and they are not the same people, and the latter is there to keep an eye on the former.
 
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I don't know, but I don't think ITTF needs pressure from China to kill people's voice. I never had the feeling that they respect it anyway, if they did we would already have good quality videos on youtube lol.

About the boycott, I'm eager to see what will happen next, in Europe there would probably be an investigation about LGL's being fired case and the government would find out that the CNT's success is put in danger by personal interests. But can this happen in China, I don't know.
 
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there is a surprising variation in the quality of english Sakumi rights , not saying anything but just observing ...

Interesting observation that I am not sure I think the same way... I personally do not like Sakumi's writing. He only needs to say a few words without evidence/data then Baal disclosed everything. :eek:
 
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I went to China 1st time in 2004. Brought some soft X Korean DVD's and got stopped at the Shenzhen/Hong Kong border. Without any translators, the border police made me watch 24 Korean soft porn dvd's and signed a letter of confession about damaging China's reputation. Finally they let me go and I didn't try to bribe them after 12 hour ordeal for such trivial thing. So think about this case, folks. It is no simple matter. These players made the organization/government lose face. Future is very bleak for them.

This is awesome. "You are damaging our reputation by watching this. Oh, It just finished, put in the other one, I wonder if it's as good as the the first 6... also, who wants more pop corn?"
 
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