Brushing the ball is useless? (World champion FangBo‘s training class)

[blahness]

brush loop most of the cases do not carry enough "weight" and can be easily countered, especially at higher levels

Yep, too easily blocked. Also despite popular opinion, loopkills have the highest amount of spin, not slow spinny loops. This is why they're really difficult to block - there's huge spin + speed on them.

 

[NextLevel]

To counter some misinformation - the reason why slow spinny loops are hard to block, especially as loops against backspin, mostly for new and intermediate players and depending on quality, advanced players, are because of the angle of incidence of the ball into the rubber tends to mess up the blocker if the blocker does not get on top of the ball. The reason why *spinny* drive loops and loop kills are often easier to block if you get your racket onto them is because the angle of incidence tends to be easily captured by the blocking angle which does not have to be as high on top of the ball, making the issue more about whether the power of the ball can cause an error. Therefore getting your racket in front of the ball tends to be all you need to do as long as you are sufficiently relaxed to absorb the energy. For a slow spinny loop, you need to push down much more aggressively on top of the ball or counter it really aggressively and whether this is easy or hard depends on many things. But a loop kill is not about difficulty to block so much as it is about the difficulty of even touching the ball. Because drive loops and loop kills are rarely that hard to block if one is in position to block them. Spinny loops on the other hand can mess up timing, but of course pros train to handle them so it becomes second nature to hit on top of the ball. But a Boll has shown repeatedly, countering a short heavy spin loop can be extremely difficult. But the ABS ball has reduced the effectiveness of spin in general, so now, it is easy to just say that spinny loops don't do much.

 

[longrange]

Yep, too easily blocked.

Exactly for _blocking_ they are not easy. If you just put your racket behind the ball, it'll just pop up. You'll have to adjust the angle (might even not be possible) and/or actively drive it. They are easy to smash/punch or to counterloop, but you gotta be on the table or on top of the trajectory. OTOH you can exactly just block the ball if it has a lot of speed from the loop drive.

Also despite popular opinion, loopkills have the highest amount of spin, not slow spinny loops. This is why they're really difficult to block - there's huge spin + speed on them.

It is the ratio of spin to speed. The more there's speed, the less the spin is felt. That's why one can just hit through the backspin, because the racket speed is high.
Think of a loaded ball, which clips the net—all the speed is gone, there's just spin and no way to recover it by blocking, you gotta chop-block or whatever you try in this case, but most of the time the ball just shoots off.

I used to underestimate these loops myself, trying to hit a loop drive because:
1. The ball is heavy/rigid/whatever and doesn't spin very much.
2. Even with the old ball I used to play with a guy who was sitting on the table punishing these loops.
3. I'm tall and I couldn't open up/brush stably enough (think I'm not coordinated enough)
4. And in cases I could it was an easy point even for a mediocre opponent.

I just thought it's useless in the modern TT.

Lately I've figured out how to do it:
1. Consistently.
2. Spinny.
3. Short.
And it's a totally different story now. Against the lower level opponents it's a straight point and it's much more energy efficient than running around to hit a loop drive.

I have a strong sparring, who was ratingscetral 2100 in his prime. He comfortably spots me 6 points and I still struggle. During the training he naturally destroys all these openings, but I think he barely counterloops 20% of them during the matches.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Also main reason is, High ball? Gozo probably gonna eat that for lunch. 100 km/h fastball to your side of the table.

It is nice to see Gozo get some branding accolade.

 

[Attitude]

We should clarify a bit.
Brushloops that go a bit further like a drive or a normal topspin are easy to block or even to counter.
Brush hits closer to the table or as mentioned before near the net, are not easy to block an even harder to counter propperly, which is the main reason why pros do more chopblocks to give a quality answer to these openers.

Until a certain level brush loops are easier because you simply dont need to adjust your angles much. You can just simply make an upward motion and can almost every shot. But these shots require more effort and will always lack speed and require longer recovery times.

And beyond a certain point most players can deal with certain spins and can adjust to almost everything around it.
What nobody is capable of though, is reaching a fast ball that is out of your reach. Reaching a brushed ball is way easier every time.

 

[NextLevel]

Exactly for _blocking_ they are not easy. If you just put your racket behind the ball, it'll just pop up. You'll have to adjust the angle (might even not be possible) and/or actively drive it. They are easy to smash/punch or to counterloop, but you gotta be on the table or on top of the trajectory. OTOH you can exactly just block the ball if it has a lot of speed from the loop drive.

It is the ratio of spin to speed. The more there's speed, the less the spin is felt. That's why one can just hit through the backspin, because the racket speed is high.
Think of a loaded ball, which clips the net—all the speed is gone, there's just spin and no way to recover it by blocking, you gotta chop-block or whatever you try in this case, but most of the time the ball just shoots off.

I used to underestimate these loops myself, trying to hit a loop drive because:
1. The ball is heavy/rigid/whatever and doesn't spin very much.
2. Even with the old ball I used to play with a guy who was sitting on the table punishing these loops.
3. I'm tall and I couldn't open up/brush stably enough (think I'm not coordinated enough)
4. And in cases I could it was an easy point even for a mediocre opponent.

I just thought it's useless in the modern TT.

Lately I've figured out how to do it:
1. Consistently.
2. Spinny.
3. Short.
And it's a totally different story now. Against the lower level opponents it's a straight point and it's much more energy efficient than running around to hit a loop drive.

I have a strong sparring, who was ratingscetral 2100 in his prime. He comfortably spots me 6 points and I still struggle. During the training he naturally destroys all these openings, but I think he barely counterloops 20% of them during the matches.

Yes, it is exactly the ratio of spin to speed that affect the angle of incidence , so the contact gets too much topsheet and too little sponge and the reaction sends the ball upwards. I now have opponents who have played me enough that they often push to my forehand and immediately I loop the ball, they are ready to smash counter on top of the ball and hook the ball wide to end the point immediately. But this is something they learned after playing me enough to consistently do it, it isn't something that comes naturally and easily to people, most people who try for counter topspins tend to send the ball long and I still get my fair share of free points on misses.

 

[blahness]

Exactly for _blocking_ they are not easy. If you just put your racket behind the ball, it'll just pop up. You'll have to adjust the angle (might even not be possible) and/or actively drive it. They are easy to smash/punch or to counterloop, but you gotta be on the table or on top of the trajectory. OTOH you can exactly just block the ball if it has a lot of speed from the loop drive.

It is the ratio of spin to speed. The more there's speed, the less the spin is felt. That's why one can just hit through the backspin, because the racket speed is high.
Think of a loaded ball, which clips the net—all the speed is gone, there's just spin and no way to recover it by blocking, you gotta chop-block or whatever you try in this case, but most of the time the ball just shoots off.

I used to underestimate these loops myself, trying to hit a loop drive because:
1. The ball is heavy/rigid/whatever and doesn't spin very much.
2. Even with the old ball I used to play with a guy who was sitting on the table punishing these loops.
3. I'm tall and I couldn't open up/brush stably enough (think I'm not coordinated enough)
4. And in cases I could it was an easy point even for a mediocre opponent.

I just thought it's useless in the modern TT.

Lately I've figured out how to do it:
1. Consistently.
2. Spinny.
3. Short.
And it's a totally different story now. Against the lower level opponents it's a straight point and it's much more energy efficient than running around to hit a loop drive.

I have a strong sparring, who was ratingscetral 2100 in his prime. He comfortably spots me 6 points and I still struggle. During the training he naturally destroys all these openings, but I think he barely counterloops 20% of them during the matches.

If you can do it consistently low, short and very spinny aka Timo Boll esque of course those are always a threat. But those are incredibly difficult to execute tbh and imo requires very good eyesight and timing. And your opponent can adjust by simply moving closer to the table and then just sidespin angle block you to make you run. Of course if you have great spin variation and placement it would be very difficult for opponents to adjust to it.

But one should always have special weapons and this can be one of them.

 

[longle]

If you can do it consistently low, short and very spinny aka Timo Boll esque of course those are always a threat. But those are incredibly difficult to execute tbh and imo requires very good eyesight and timing. And your opponent can adjust by simply moving closer to the table and then just sidespin angle block you to make you run. Of course if you have great spin variation and placement it would be very difficult for opponents to adjust to it.

But one should always have special weapons and this can be one of them.

TMB is one of the few who can play this style because he has very quick reflexes so he can counter the counter of the brush loops

 

[Tinykin]

"I think he barely counterloops 20% of them during the matches."
Do you really mean 20%?
To me, that's a very significant number for a whole match.

 

[longrange]

"I think he barely counterloops 20% of them during the matches."
Do you really mean 20%?
To me, that's a very significant number for a whole match.

Yes, the success rate is insane. But this guy annihilates me in a variety of ways and I can only get to land 1-2 of these loops per game, 1-2 being counterlooped in the BO7.

Ideally I aim into foot by foot square of wide short FH. If the opponent moves laterally from his BH corner the ball is already descending by the time of contact and is difficult to counterloop. And you can't really block it. You really have to counterloop it off the bounce, then it's not difficult at all.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So, this is half a video, with maybe not 100% translation.

You need both brush technique and strike technique and a balance of the two.

If your brush technique is very good, then you need to add strike into it.
somehow, I'm guessing, people will misunderstand and leave out brush and only learn strike and this is where this video is going to be big trouble.

There is a reason why they say too much brush and need more strike and I don't see this demonstrated in the video by the club members.
As I said, this is half the video and diluted by translation.

 

[iamsancezz]

this is funny!

A year ago i started using an open angle for loops on both sides. And i abundant it on the backhand side because it felt unnatural. Even tho i had the best backhand with that. Back than it was more of a punchy stroke and it was wrong!

Now I'm back on that trip on my backhand. With the modification of using my wrist heavily. It feels so right now. Just like in the video, starting with an angle parallel to the floor (heavily inclined wrist), hitting the ball with an 90° angle and ending with a ~80-70° angle due to adding the necessary friction.

On forehand side it's the opposite. While my loops are very consistant with an open angle, they aren't that spinny. I also struggled with half-long heavy side-spin services. I remembered the time where my forehand was at it's best. There was only one rule: forward motion. But back than i struggled with open-ups because i hadn't the feel for the right upward motion nor the thicker and more relaxed contact point. I think the best way to play the forehand topspin is a motion at ~45° angle (+- depending on the incoming spin) and a little whiping motion upwards at the contact point to add friction. Thus the opposite compared to the backhand.

there is a training video where u can see these concepts more clearly. "MULTIBALL TRAINING PATRICK FRANZISKA TENIS MEJA 2022"

 

[Dominikk85]

I think in Germany the most common way to learn is to first learn to do flat counter hit.

When you Master that you learn the slow brush loop and after some time you learn to do a fast loop (kinda in between flat hit and slow loop).

Not sure if that is the most efficient way of learning it, maybe someone could learn the fast loop right away.

 

[kindof99]

I think in Germany the most common way to learn is to first learn to do flat counter hit.

When you Master that you learn the slow brush loop and after some time you learn to do a fast loop (kinda in between flat hit and slow loop).

Not sure if that is the most efficient way of learning it, maybe someone could learn the fast loop right away.

Basically, drive -> loop-> drive/loop and anything between

 

[kindof99]

slow spinny or brush loop is a little underestimated among amateurs. I do not see many do it now. Most people are either hitting or fast loop. Slower loop/brush loop is particularly good for half long, opening, and out of position play. The problem for most amateurs is that most can't brush loop very well.

 

[Draycott old man]

slow spinny or brush loop is a little underestimated among amateurs. I do not see many do it now. Most people are either hitting or fast loop. Slower loop/brush loop is particularly good for half long, opening, and out of position play. The problem for most amateurs is that most can't brush loop very well.

There's nothing better than a perfect brush loop with no sound that is loaded with bucket loads of spin that takes most amateurs by surprise!!! Like you say hardly anyone at my club plays that shot !!! Where it's my favourite shot !!! And I believe it's incredibly hard to handle if you get it right!!!!

 

[brokenball]

brush loop most of the cases do not carry enough "weight" and can be easily countered, especially at higher levels

You said that just to show your ignorance and get a rise out of me. Balls have energy and their weight is only about 2.7 gm and that doesn't change. Energy can be rotational as well as translational. I suppose that you, or any of the people that liked your comment, have never had a good play hit a ball with so much spin that it bounces high off your paddle. I suppose that you guys have never had a ball jump out low below your paddle. I suppose you guys have never had to hit a ball from below the table so that more spin than speed is required to get the ball back on the table due to the Magnus effect.

You guys are misleading the new guys that don't know any better.

There is an optimal spin to speed ratio for every shot.

Yes, it is best to just 'whack' the ball when it is high and have a line of sight shot. In this case you are hoping your opponent doesn't keep the ball low.

 

[longle]

You said that just to show your ignorance and get a rise out of me. Balls have energy and their weight is only about 2.7 gm and that doesn't change. Energy can be rotational as well as translational. I suppose that you, or any of the people that liked your comment, have never had a good play hit a ball with so much spin that it bounces high off your paddle. I suppose that you guys have never had a ball jump out low below your paddle. I suppose you guys have never had to hit a ball from below the table so that more spin than speed is required to get the ball back on the table due to the Magnus effect.

You guys are misleading the new guys that don't know any better.

There is an optimal spin to speed ratio for every shot.

Yes, it is best to just 'whack' the ball when it is high and have a line of sight shot. In this case you are hoping your opponent doesn't keep the ball low.

I understand your point, sometimes brush loops can be useful to disrupt opponent's rhythm or just safely land the ball on the table.

However I am talking about "weight" in a general forehand loop, to make it a powerful weapon.

According to Fang Bo, most amateurs only hit the ball with friction, or brush loops. The higher your level is, the more impact is needed to penetrate the opponent's defense, even the brush loops.