Changes in Table Tennis

Have the changes over the last 20 years been good for the sport?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 34.5%
  • No

    Votes: 19 65.5%

  • Total voters
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My somewhat pessimistic opinion is that rule changes are not going to do anything significant to TT popularity, especially as a TV sport. Main challenges are low participation base (why watch something you don't understand and appreciate) and problems for both in-person and TV spectator (the ball and action area are too small, pace is too high, you can't see the damn thing from the stands and angles on TV are not too great either).

So, tweaks to net height, ball size, serve rules etc. won't make a huge difference, I think. Getting more people to play, both juniors and adults, might help. As an anecdotal evidence - I was snickering at golf TV broadcasts for quite some time ('like watching grass grow or paint dry!'), until I picked up clubs and played few rounds myself. Suddenly it became a captivating show - because you realize that these guys are really good, to put it mildly, and yet there is drama lurking on every hole.

Yeap
people are more likely to watch a sport they can relate to. Increasing the net height does mean prolonged rallies but not more spectators. Worldwide known teams could also help, more people would get involved if golden state warriors or barcelona had a respectable table tennis team, but thats just a crazy idea of mine wont happen most likely
 
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Yeah. From the standpoint of making the sport more viewer friendly, I think ITTF is fighting an uphill battle if, the way they try to make the sport more popular is rule changes.

The biggest issue with making table tennis viewer friendly is that it hard to see what is going on from farther away than ringside.

The second biggest issue is that, if you don't play, there are many things that happen that you just won't understand UNLESS YOU PLAY at a reasonable level. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people say, "why did he miss that easy shot!" when the shot in question was absolutely not easy. If you don't play, it is hard to understand what is going on.

Whereas, tennis is still pretty easy to watch and enjoy when you don't fully understand it because tennis is not about spin and deception to the same extent and it is more about power. If you don't have the power to drive and spin the ball from behind the baseline and you don't have the power to serve over 120 mph (perhaps the number is actually higher), then you can't be in the top 100.

The third issue, in my opinion is, to some extent, related to the first two issues. For many people, it is hard to watch a sport if they don't have someone to root for. If people don't play, and it is hard to watch, and people don't understand the game or have someone to root for, changing rules will probably not do too much for viewership.

None of the things that actually matter to someone who really does play matter at all to someone who plays at a basement level or doesn't play at all.


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The second biggest issue is that, if you don't play, there are many things that happen that you just won't understand UNLESS YOU PLAY at a reasonable level.

My counter-argument to this is the popularity of American football in the US (just one example). How many people actually understand all the technical war lingo and Xs and Os of modern professional football? I have watched it all my life, at least some, and I like it pretty much, but I have not idea what commentators mean by the "A gap" and the "B-gap" and the Cover-2 and the Tampa whatever. It just goes in one ear and out the other, probably because I never played, but I am entertained a lot by a good game. And I watch the sport (would watch more but I am playing my own sport a lot of the time when they televise games, or I am really tired from playing). Having a deep understanding is not necessary to watch a sport. Same thing when there is skating or gymnastics during the Olympics. I don't know a triple axel from a toe-loop, but I can see when they fall or look a bit shaky, and can see the pressure building, and it is exciting and entertaining.

In our sport, chicks love a good counterloop rally. Especially when it is an attacker against JSH.
 
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Do consider the fact that more chops with heavy backspin will be below net height and need more effort for the looper to arc under said rule changes.

True, but I still think a laser chop has a lower margin of error than an archy loop which at the end of the day hurts defenders. Loopers are certainly strong enough and fit enough to cope. As you pointed out once on a different thread, fractions of a percentage matter in a sport where the difference between winning and losing is barely more than a coin toss in a 7 game match.

I admit I am not sure how it would all play out, but I can't help thinking a higher net would homogenize the game further.

Also, would it return the advantage to the server by making banana flicks harder? Or would it make it harder to serve short and spinny? Maybe this week I will try it and see.
 
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My counter-argument to this is the popularity of American football in the US (just one example). How many people actually understand all the technical war lingo and Xs and Os of modern professional football? I have watched it all my life, at least some, and I like it pretty much, but I have not idea what commentators mean by the "A gap" and the "B-gap" and the Cover-2 and the Tampa whatever. It just goes in one ear and out the other, probably because I never played, but I am entertained a lot by a good game. And I watch the sport (would watch more but I am playing my own sport a lot of the time when they televise games, or I am really tired from playing). Having a deep understanding is not necessary to watch a sport. Same thing when there is skating or gymnastics during the Olympics. I don't know a triple axel from a toe-loop, but I can see when they fall or look a bit shaky, and can see the pressure building, and it is exciting and entertaining.

In our sport, chicks love a good counterloop rally. Especially when it is an attacker against JSH.

The counterloop rallies, most people can appreciate.

I thought I covered why TT is different than other sports in needing to understand it.

In football when the offensive line blows a whole through the defensive line that you can drive a truck through and the running back runs for 30 yards, you get that something big happened. When the defensive brings the blitz and sends 8 men in to swamp the QB and the offense loses 18 yards, you get that something big happened. When that same blitz is on and Joe Montana throws the ball right as he is getting slammed, and the result is an 87 yard touchdown, the drama is hard to miss.

In TT, when a player gives an amazing serve and the opponent dumps the ball into the net or hits the ball left or right missing the table because of the deception of the serve, someone who doesn't know better says, "that guy sucks! Why did he miss that easy ball?" And that, coupled with the lack of rooting interest makes TT hard to watch for a lot of people. Not for me. But I know people who can't watch it.

And I suspect, that somehow, through the years, with football, that you know the teams and have at least some rooting interest. I remember knowing who Joe Namath was when I was 5 years old. I am sure it is like that in China for kids with players like Ma Long and Zhang Jike. In the west, I am not so sure that has happened. It would be cool if it could.


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My guess is people who watch TT probably have just enough knowledge to know serves are tricky. Our sport does not have that many missed serves compared to tennis on fast surfaces. Tennisn clay has long rallies. But still to me not so exciting. Tastes.
 
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My guess is people who watch TT probably have just enough knowledge to know serves are tricky.

I agree. I am talking more about the people who don't watch and have no knowledge of the sport. As we have both noted, it is possible to watch American Football without understanding the more technical details. But I do also know some people (mostly women) who seem to only see a bunch of men, in a funny version of battle gear, falling all over the place.

Our sport does not have that many missed serves compared to tennis on fast surfaces.

In tennis a missed serve is often crazy fast so your average retard seems to think they understand that as an achievement. The same kind of person has asked me why I was practicing easy serves when I was practicing short serves at SPiN. Then I make them try to return them so the figure out that there is more to it than they were seeing.

In TT there are more points in a match that end without an untrained eye seeing anything that is all that exciting, to make it harder to draw an audience of people who don't have some experience playing or a rooting interest.

Again, in China I think there is a large enough base with knowledge of the game and then the people who don't have that still do seem to have a rooting interest. So it can be done.

To me, the question would be, how would we create that rooting interest for the people who don't have some club level playing experience.

Tennis on clay has long rallies. But still to me not so exciting. Tastes.

Yeah. I don't love watching tennis either. But my wife, who willl not watch a TT match because of this stuff I have said, still does enjoy watching tennis and she does not understand tennis any more than she understands TT.

So, to me the issue is, how do we raise people's understanding of the sport and when that is not the case, how do we create a rooting interest?


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I agree. I am talking more about the people who don't watch and have no knowledge of the sport. As we have both noted, it is possible to watch American Football without understanding the more technical details. But I do also know some people (mostly women) who seem to only see a bunch of men, in a funny version of battle gear, falling all over the place.



In tennis a missed serve is often crazy fast so your average retard seems to think they understand that as an achievement. The same kind of person has asked me why I was practicing easy serves when I was practicing short serves at SPiN. Then I make them try to return them so the figure out that there is more to it than they were seeing.

In TT there are more points in a match that end without an untrained eye seeing anything that is all that exciting, to make it harder to draw an audience of people who don't have some experience playing or a rooting interest.

Again, in China I think there is a large enough base with knowledge of the game and then the people who don't have that still do seem to have a rooting interest. So it can be done.

To me, the question would be, how would we create that rooting interest for the people who don't have some club level playing experience.



Yeah. I don't love watching tennis either. But my wife, who willl not watch a TT match because of this stuff I have said, still does enjoy watching tennis and she does not understand tennis any more than she understands TT.

So, to me the issue is, how do we raise people's understanding of the sport and when that is not the case, how do we create a rooting interest?


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I've seen a lot of people's reactions when me and my friends start playing or doing drills. Especially in USA, TT is just seen as a recreational sports.


I've experienced this situation where the 4 of us were doing recruitment drive outdoor in front of the college's union building (it's the most visited building). We were playing double half-ass until it went to 9-9 and everyone is in "this shit is on" mode. I didn't bother seeing my surrounding until I realize there are like 15-20 people watching us and when we asked if they are interested to play they just said they want to see us play.


I completely understand that sometimes the typical table tennis rally is short and unless you are 1800 or above, it'll be pretty damn rare to get more than 3 loops back to back. Comparing TT to tennis or badminton which have long rallies, it looks boring unless you get to epic points. But as someone who plays badminton for a long time as well, TT barely has any down time for footwork reaction time
 
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Since Shuki and you are neither choppers nor high-level i heavily doubt you guys can speak from a higher level chopper´s perspective.

You're right, that's why I was speaking from MY perspective. And giving MY ideas as to what could happen. I also said everything was speculation since we haven't actually seen the change take effect.

You compared the 40+ ball change being huge to a 1cm net change. I don't see the similarity. One changes the playing characteristics of the ball, the other doesn't. Again, I don't know how this a change in net height will change the game at a professional level, but neither do you.
 
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I've seen a lot of people's reactions when me and my friends start playing or doing drills. Especially in USA, TT is just seen as a recreational sports.


I've experienced this situation where the 4 of us were doing recruitment drive outdoor in front of the college's union building (it's the most visited building). We were playing double half-ass until it went to 9-9 and everyone is in "this shit is on" mode. I didn't bother seeing my surrounding until I realize there are like 15-20 people watching us and when we asked if they are interested to play they just said they want to see us play.

Good point. Up close, many can appreciate TT without knowing much except it looks cool up close.

The night the SPiN Manhattan DJ had hiz last Hurrah before getting fired, Carl, PPHolic and I were doing simple attacking drills. An older couple parked themselves at chairs and watched live as if we were super-human or something when we were only serving and attacking to a spot for training.

Seing attacking and defending up close is real, no matter how much no one understands the aspects of spin, when you see the ball bend and break at high speed and keep it up, it simply looks cool to anyone.
 
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I've seen a lot of people's reactions when me and my friends start playing or doing drills.

Good point. Up close, many can appreciate TT without knowing much except it looks cool up close.

The night the SPiN Manhattan DJ had hiz last Hurrah before getting fired, Carl, PPHolic and I were doing simple attacking drills. An older couple parked themselves at chairs and watched live as if we were super-human or something when we were only serving and attacking to a spot for training.

Seing attacking and defending up close is real, no matter how much no one understands the aspects of spin, when you see the ball bend and break at high speed and keep it up, it simply looks cool to anyone.

It is true that seeing things live, up close, looks way better than on TV or video. I also know that watching guys who are 2500-2600 in person looks pretty awesome. And then, I have seen the same match I saw live, on video and it is almost like on video it magnifies the weaknesses of the players and how good they are does not always fully come through.

I am going to ramble and tell some stories here since the subject has turned to what makes TT more viewer friendly.

I used to train with this guy at Spin who is a pretty good defender. He is much better than me no matter how you look at things. We would be hitting at SPiN from about 9:00pm-1:00am. Most of the people there at that time were basement players who didn't really understand the game. And most of them were at the bar drinking and hanging out.

When we did training drills which are more flashy, people were more likely to watch. When we knew we were being watched, Alex would say: "showtime!" What that meant was that we would pretend to be playing a match. We would keep score like a match. But most of the points would end up being me attacking and him backing up and lobbing and every so often counterlooping from way back.

There is no question that, when we did this, we attracted a decent crowd. People loved to watch that stuff. Especially with the fact that we were also making sure the "score" was very close.

As soon as we played a real match, everyone would get bored and stop watching.

At Spin they used to have a tournament on Friday nights that was meant to be a showcase of great players. The guys who would play in it at the beginning were in the 2500-2600 range so they were pretty good. Every so often there would be a player in the 2700 range. 12 guys of that caliber would face off and play a tournament.

At first the first place player would win $500.00. And everyone was fighting for they $500.00. Then they made it that 1st place got $500.00 and 2nd place got $100.00.

People came. But mostly people who play TT. Generally, the same guys would win over and over. They started having rules that if you won x times in a row you had to sit out the tournament x number of weeks.

The people who came to watch were always decent but not that special. For a while they struggled to try and figure out a format that would work. Nothing really seemed to work.

These days what they do is they have 3 matches. Everyone who plays gets paid something. Maybe it is $100.00. I don't know. But the matches are all staged. One player wins the first game. The other player wins the second game and then whatever happens. The last game is sometime a ridiculous deuce to 18, 19, 25....

The players are decent. Well, some of them. But sometimes they have players who are my level who know how to put on a show.

Anyway, the result of the change is that way more people come, watch and are entertained. I am not sure if as many people who know how to play go, but way more people who don't know how to play show up for the show.

Anyway, all of this musing has me thinking about KillerSpin and those staged tournaments they used to put on, where, in every match, at some point one of the players is on defense, lobbing and goes over the barricades. Do they still do those? I used to hate them because they are so fake. But, perhaps that did help viewership of table tennis more than I realized.

And I can't tell you how many times I have had someone, upon learning that I play table tennis, ask me: "do you play really far back from the table the way the best players do?"

And the disappointment when I dispel that belief and show them what the real best players in the world play like during a match. [emoji2]


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I find those show/ exhibition matches super boring. Table tennis will always have the problem of being a very beginner unfriendly sport. Having played table tennis a bit at school and maybe in your garden won't make you understand the crazy stuff a XX or a Matsudaira does.
 
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I find those show/ exhibition matches super boring. Table tennis will always have the problem of being a very beginner unfriendly sport. Having played table tennis a bit at school and maybe in your garden won't make you understand the crazy stuff a XX or a Matsudaira does.

I don't find them boring when people do things I have not seen before. That's why we need a separate event scored differently.
 
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I don't find them boring when people do things I have not seen before. That's why we need a separate event scored differently.

It is funny, there was a point where I found the performance matches boring also because, when you know the real thing, it is obvious that the fake ones are fake. But, I have seen enough of them where the guys doing the performance did some amazing things. And perhaps seeing them in person helps a player who knows what real play looks like, see the art in the performance version.

Matthew Suchy is excellent at the performance art stuff. He takes behind the back shots, drop shots backs up and plays defense, turns it into offense. You don't miss the amazing skill and touch that it takes to do what I have seen him do.

One time I saw Ilija Lupulesku, and he was hitting with these guys who were blasting loops and he was just blocking. And they are blasting loops. And every so often he would step in and touch the ball right off the bounce, less than an inch after the bounce and he was pushing short. It was crazy. They bounced once, twice and then sizzled back into the net. Ridiculous touch. He also was doing another one where he would take the loop off the bounce and touch it so it popped up about 2-2.5 feet, bounced on the other side, and came straight back over the net off the first bounce because of the trajectory.

So, after seeing stuff like that I realized that in matches like those


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Could be true, unintended consequences have occurred with about every rule changes. I am not personally thinking that the sport should take the gamble that somehow it will all work out for defenders if we raise the net, by some feature none of us anticipate. I watch how these two guys I see win points, often their very low defensive shots setup huge forehand attacks. You don't want to take that away from defenders. They will in time cease to exist at high levels. And they make for some of the most entertaining matches. JSH in his prime was always an amazing show. And since that is the ITTF justification for nearly everything (increase spectator appeal), I think it is a bad idea.

Couldn´t agree more. Seeing or playing against those chops that are nearly as fast as a smash or a drive i don´t want to miss...

Do consider the fact that more chops with heavy backspin will be below net height and need more effort for the looper to arc under said rule changes.

again... loopers will have a much easier time adapting IMHO, because the trajectory of a Loop over the table or a flip is most of the times curvy and arcing, sometimes just slightly but nevertheless arcing, whereas the trajectory of chops is rather flat.

I'm not too sure if table tennis can be made much more popular without changing it's essence.

It is after all a very difficult, very technical niche sport.

Funny that China, Japan and a few more manage to get it out of that "niche"

You're right, that's why I was speaking from MY perspective. And giving MY ideas as to what could happen. I also said everything was speculation since we haven't actually seen the change take effect.

You compared the 40+ ball change being huge to a 1cm net change. I don't see the similarity. One changes the playing characteristics of the ball, the other doesn't. Again, I don't know how this a change in net height will change the game at a professional level, but neither do you.

Exactly, and if you read my Posts closely you will find i haven´t wrote that. I wrote that i just spoke to a higher level chopper recently and understood his view on this and shared it with you...
Nothing more - nothing less.

And what you keep interpreting is mostly up to you
 
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Anything that's hard to understand and do in terms of sports and games can be taken out of it's niche with enough simplification, instruction or just simply something that grabs people's attention and makes them interested to learn.

I would very much so love to see table tennis become a big sport in the west, and it could be possible. We just need to find out what exactly would get people playing it.

It's funny how individualistic cultures seem to much more favor team sports, while more non-individualistic cultures like China and Japan, while they still try to push for team sports, have really eaten up table tennis compared to the west.
 
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I would very much so love to see table tennis become a big sport in the west, and it could be possible. We just need to find out what exactly would get people playing it.
That´s nothing new. ITTF is trying this since the eighties or even further back.
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It's funny how individualistic cultures seem to much more favor team sports, while more non-individualistic cultures like China and Japan, while they still try to push for team sports, have really eaten up table tennis compared to the west.

Well observed.
Probably 'cause the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...
 
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