Coaching code of ethics

[Somerset Tta]

Suppose I take my son to a TT coach for general training and development. I then enter my son into a tournament and upon arrival am pleasantly surprised to see that this coach is there too and take the opportunity for a chat and general catch up. My son does ok in the tournament and reaches the semi final whereupon, to my confusion, this coach is in my son's opponent's corner.
Having spent time with my son, this coach is able to quickly help his opponent, a slightly higher ranked boy, get the upper hand because he knows all the weak points in my son's game. Unbeknownst to me at the time, the coach was there in a private capacity paid for by this other boys father. The combination of a slightly better opponent with a coach who could expose all his weaknesses means my son loses. My question is this: how should I now feel about that coach? Was he just doing his job? Should I take my son back to him for more coaching or look elsewhere now? To me it feels like a code of ethics was breached but does such a thing exist in TT? If I take my son to any coach, should I be prepared to accept that everything that coach learns about him may then be used against him at any point if someone else pays for it? To my mind I would have expected some kind of code to be in place but does the need for coaches to earn a living outweigh such things? You can probably tell my feelings on the matter but I'm interested to know what others think.

 

[JeffM]

I think of this scenario as when you see the Chinese players play each other in an international tournament, and they will both not have any coaches. In your scenario, the scale is smaller, but the same principles should still apply if the coach considers the advantages and disadvantages for both players and try to make it an even match. It will also make the coach look more professional. While he can argue that he is just doing his job, I am sure if he tells the other boy in a respectful manner that he feels uncomfortable / unethical to coach him in this match as he is a coach to both players, the other boy will / should respect his decision.
So yes, I do not like his behaviour of coaching the other boy when he knows your boy from coaching your boy. It is his decision however. But I do not think it is a ethical / professional decision in a tournament setting.

 

[Shuki]

Do you take your son to this coach regularly, or was it just for some general stroke knowledge and a few sessions. like under 10 sessions of coaching? if this were the case I could see the coach helping his student that arrives every week for the past year opposed to a child that just had a few lessons from them and didn't keep coming back on a regular basis.

The regular basis thing is important. If you were a coach and you were training someone twice a week, and then training another student just once a month or just a few sessions. would you help out your more dedicated student?



Now on the other hand, if you've been going to this coach for a while on a regular basis and the coach just chooses to help out another student and not your son because they payed to do so at this tournament, then yes. That is very unethical of them.

 

[ttmonster]

@Shuki has a point.

I think its a very tough call. We will never know what the coach was telling the opponent. He might have been professional enough to help him deduce your son's weaknesses from the context of the match , or he could have used the information he already had. Again, the only person who can only clarify the situations is the coach himself.

I know this is a tough conversation to have but if you can find a way to talk to him about this situation and what was his call and ethical reasoning he used , it might help you take the right decision.

 

[Shuki]

Do you even know if the coaching included his weaknesses? He could have just called timeouts and told him to relax and stay calm, make to go through the ball. Things that a parent could tell their child just as well as a coach.

you said the coach was able to help the other boy because he knew the weak points of your sons game. something seems off here, a coach wouldn't say "okay you're about to face another student of mine, his forehand is really weak to flat hits, so just destroy him with that"

btw a coach doesn't have to teach you kid to know their weaknesses. good coaches can see the weaknesses of players by watching them play. Hell some coaches are good enough to know that you'd be bad at dealing with certain types of balls to certain areas based simply on the way you hold your paddle or do another stroke.

Honestly, I don't know how invested in this coach you are already. But I would just move on and find a new coach if they are readily available to you or just turn the other cheek and allow your son to enjoy making it as far as he did. But then again I don't know the entire story still. Was your son upset the whole time about this or was he just playing the game. If your son didn't care, making a big deal about this will only make him think he was wronged and that he deserved to win.

We always have excuses for our losses. Always. Heck I just completed a tournament and played poorly and I'm using the excuse of forgetting to bring my meds "adhd" so being unable to focus caused strange gameplay from me. I can always look back on a situation and say "oh I just didn't try very hard, or he just got a bunch of nets" Hell I found a table at the club that I couldn't even chop on because it was gritty and my light chops would turn into topspin upon contact with the table and my heavier ones would just turn into light backspin when it made contact. I could blame a loss on having to play on a table where backspin game wasn't part of the game. I could go on and on blaming the loss on other things than the simple fact that my skill didn't hold up to my opponents skill.

 

[NextLevel]

The kid lost one match. Why make a mountain out of a molehill if you don't even know the coach well enough to discuss this directly with him?

 

[brabhamista]

The coach was doing his job in a perfectly professional manner, in my opinion.

There really is no conflict of interest here. The coach was paid to coach your son's opponent. In other words, he had an obligation to use all his skills and knowledge to guide that boy to victory in as many matches as possible during that tournament. In this capacity as a paid coach he had no obligations to any other players, including your son.

To me it feels like a code of ethics was breached but does such a thing exist in TT?

You're assuming this is about TT. It's not, it's about business. He was paid, thus he has a responsibility towards his employer, nobody else. No code of ethics was breached. The coach was not there to help your son or any other player but exclusively the one whose father paid him to be there. He did his job. No more, no less. There is no questionable morals here. Just perfectly normal business practise - a practise you are free to use to your own advantage if you choose to in the future.

If I take my son to any coach, should I be prepared to accept that everything that coach learns about him may then be used against him at any point if someone else pays for it?

Yes, you should be prepared to accept that. But you should also be aware that this is perfectly normal in any sport. It's no different from what happens when coaches in other sports leave a team/player to coach a new team/player.
You should also be aware that your son will be able to counter any coaching an opponent recieves with that of this own coach. It doesn't mean he will automatucally win though. He has to have the skills and ability to implement his coach's advice too.

My question is this: how should I now feel about that coach?

You should feel no different than before (which I presume was positively) and go back to him at the next opportunity. You should ask him what he thinks was the reason your son lost that particular match and you could ask to practise drills that may lessen those weaknesses, but only if that is the next appropriate step in your son's development. If the reason is only to patch up chinks in his armour exposed during that particular match, but less relevant to his general progress, it's not the right answer.

If the coach is truly professional he will answer you truthfully. If he says he doesn't know why your son lost, then he has just proved to be of no help to your son's future progress as well as showing he had no influence on the outcome of that match.

In any case, you could take your son back to this coach or choose any other coach. It's your choice in the end, but if your son's been happy with the coach so far, you should probably continue with him.

And don't be afraid what a coach can learn about your son during drilling and lessons as it won't actually matter. Any decent coach will quickly identify weaknesses in any known or previously unknown opponent and find solutions to exploit them with immediate effect during a match.

I don't mean any offence with the following questions and I'm not looking for answers to them, but they are important for you to think about.

How old is your son? How long has he played?
Does it really matter that he lost that match?
Is he or (sorry to be frank: you) chasing a ranking?
Should he be doing that or should he focus on development instead?

Good luck to your and your son. Don't spend any more energy on this. Focus it on more important and fruitful things instead.

I hope you and your son get what you're going for while having loads of fun!

 

[NextLevel]

I heard this story on mytt a while back so I was a little jaded by it. MY view is that you need to know the coach well enough to discuss this kind of stuff directly or it really makes no sense to ask for any form of loyalty.

 

[Somerset Tta]

All the responses have been very helpful. It's the first time I've asked it. I can't imagine it's not cropped up before. Maybe it's easy to expect too much from what is in essence a standard financial transaction as Brabhamista explained. I think however it is something I would discuss in advance on another occasion to make sure there is no room for confusion.

 

[Der_Echte]

The coach was doing his job in a perfectly professional manner, in my opinion.

There really is no conflict of interest here. The coach was paid to coach your son's opponent. In other words, he had an obligation to use all his skills and knowledge to guide that boy to victory in as many matches as possible during that tournament. In this capacity as a paid coach he had no obligations to any other players, including your son.


You're assuming this is about TT. It's not, it's about business. He was paid, thus he has a responsibility towards his employer, nobody else. No code of ethics was breached. The coach was not there to help your son or any other player but exclusively the one whose father paid him to be there. He did his job. No more, no less. There is no questionable morals here. Just perfectly normal business practise - a practise you are free to use to your own advantage if you choose to in the future.


Yes, you should be prepared to accept that. But you should also be aware that this is perfectly normal in any sport. It's no different from what happens when coaches in other sports leave a team/player to coach a new team/player.
You should also be aware that your son will be able to counter any coaching an opponent recieves with that of this own coach. It doesn't mean he will automatucally win though. He has to have the skills and ability to implement his coach's advice too.


You should feel no different than before (which I presume was positively) and go back to him at the next opportunity. You should ask him what he thinks was the reason your son lost that particular match and you could ask to practise drills that may lessen those weaknesses, but only if that is the next appropriate step in your son's development. If the reason is only to patch up chinks in his armour exposed during that particular match, but less relevant to his general progress, it's not the right answer.

If the coach is truly professional he will answer you truthfully. If he says he doesn't know why your son lost, then he has just proved to be of no help to your son's future progress as well as showing he had no influence on the outcome of that match.

In any case, you could take your son back to this coach or choose any other coach. It's your choice in the end, but if your son's been happy with the coach so far, you should probably continue with him.

And don't be afraid what a coach can learn about your son during drilling and lessons as it won't actually matter. Any decent coach will quickly identify weaknesses in any known or previously unknown opponent and find solutions to exploit them with immediate effect during a match.

I don't mean any offence with the following questions and I'm not looking for answers to them, but they are important for you to think about.

How old is your son? How long has he played?
Does it really matter that he lost that match?
Is he or (sorry to be frank: you) chasing a ranking?
Should he be doing that or should he focus on development instead?

Good luck to your and your son. Don't spend any more energy on this. Focus it on more important and fruitful things instead.

I hope you and your son get what you're going for while having loads of fun!

That looks like the kinda long post Der_Echte would write... and I like it.

I will keep my comment very short.

With the small amount of information given in the OP post, I would say the coach did exactly the job he was paid to do, in BOTH cases. He was paid to train a child for an unspecified number of sesson(s) and another to train and coach.

I would look for the silver lining in this situation. Look at it like this - that Coach is exposing the OP's child to a fact and situation he is gunna get exposed to very soon anyway if he continues to play competitive TT. Opponents will discover and exploit weakness and leverage strength.

Coach just helped the OP's son out to discover one or more technical and possible tactical weaknesses. If the child addresses these areas, then the child will have a stronger game and would have developed.

I think coach was doing him a favor.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Suppose I take my son to a TT coach for general training and development. I then enter my son into a tournament and upon arrival am pleasantly surprised to see that this coach is there too and take the opportunity for a chat and general catch up. My son does ok in the tournament and reaches the semi final whereupon, to my confusion, this coach is in my son's opponent's corner.
Having spent time with my son, this coach is able to quickly help his opponent, a slightly higher ranked boy, get the upper hand because he knows all the weak points in my son's game. Unbeknownst to me at the time, the coach was there in a private capacity paid for by this other boys father. The combination of a slightly better opponent with a coach who could expose all his weaknesses means my son loses. My question is this: how should I now feel about that coach? Was he just doing his job? Should I take my son back to him for more coaching or look elsewhere now? To me it feels like a code of ethics was breached but does such a thing exist in TT? If I take my son to any coach, should I be prepared to accept that everything that coach learns about him may then be used against him at any point if someone else pays for it? To my mind I would have expected some kind of code to be in place but does the need for coaches to earn a living outweigh such things? You can probably tell my feelings on the matter but I'm interested to know what others think.

Competition is cruel, get used to it.

First of all we are witnessing only your side of the story and not the coach's.

Im not trying to be a wiseguy here ,but if the coach really needs the money, no ethics are breeched if you ask me. If he has tons of students and he can cope really well with his income then obviously he is a gold digger and you should stay away and find someone who loves teaching

 

[chuckjordan2]

Next tournament, pay the coach to assist your son. Then you'll have your answer (unless you speak with him before).

Before the tournament you mentioned, why didn't you inquire if that coach could coach your son during it? Was this your son's first tournament?

Bottom line: have you spent time speaking to your son about this? That is what really should matter to you.

 

[Der_Echte]

When a TT player plays competitive TT in tourneys where there are cash prizes for semis and above, there will certainly be coaches present giving good advise. The ones with a coach who is competent have a huge advantage. is this fair? Yes. Anyone can hire a competent coach if there are enough of them around locally. Is it a huge advantage if a player uses Tenergy rubber and a player has a 2 year old sheet of Aurus (like me a lot of times), yes sir, huge advantage to the player with a new T05 on FH. is it fair? Yes, I could buy T05 at nearly $80 USD also... but I wont until the Yen rate adjusts to where the price becomes similar to other modern rubbers.

I recently competed in the U2000 MDTTC tourney, a club that is a hotbed of growing juniors and high level adult players for the region. Nearly ALL my opponents had a really competent coach 4 levels better than me. Most of my opponents were similarly rated, but play 1-2 levels higher than their rating. Many of them were .5-1.5 level higher rated than me. I defeated all of them to the finals, winning vs most of them 3-0 or 3-1. All these kids had a great coach in their corner. I had our club's coach occasionally be there (when he wasn't watching his son compete). I got 1/3 the advice my opponents had.

Sure, my opponents had advantages in skill AND competent coaching. I had to face that every match under pressure. I didn't complain, I embraced it as a challenge. I care less about ratings points (well, I DO, they estimate my playing level, but they are not the first concern) I worry first about how far I can go in my division. I measure my performance in a tourney by how far I made it compared to my ranking (USA uses ratings points to rank and seed players). I was ranked number 8 in a field of 40 players, where 13-14 of the players were essentially 2000 level players with a lower rating, we were ALL competing - we wanted first place and the money. That doesn't look like a level playing field by anyone's reasonable person standard of judgment, but I will say this - it CERTAINLY is fair. All players who are within a skill range to compete all faced the same playing conditions and challenge.

In my case, making the finals and losing at duece 11-13, after saying hello to my opponent 11-2 first game, was damned good showing in my book. My ratings points shoulda gone through the roof, but they only moved up modrately, big deal. I competed, I fought, I got paid. So I been there, done that, and got the free T-Shirt (that I had to pay for).

That is reality. This is TABLE TENNIS. This is SPARTA !!!!!!!!

I will say this in favor of OP's son. If this was a tourney of any medium to large size (say at least 30-100 players in his division) and the child made the SEMIS and wasn't ranked in the top 4 (sure sounds like he wasn't ranked that high if he took only a few lessons) and the child made the FREEKING SEMIS, I would be making him a special glass of Federweissen and his favorite fruit dish done up special good. That is such an outstanding performance to be proud of... with hope to learn more and develop more to an even MOAR Bad-azz competitor.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I don't know. To me, it sounds like you are looking at this entirely the wrong way.

Unless your kid, right now is getting ready for National tryouts (truthfully even if that was the case) you should think of his loses as learning experiences. If you were actually paying attention, and the coach did key the better player in to your son's weaknesses, THEN you should now have a better idea of things your son needs to work on. See, you didn't even pay him for the service and he showed you what your son needs to work on. I'd say that is pretty generous. Especially if the other player didn't need the help to beat your son and the other player's father was paying the coach, THAT DAY, IN THAT TOURNAMENT, to help his son and you got so much beneficial information you can use to help your son get better.

As far as I'm concerned, NextLevel's statement is worth reading and understanding. The loses, in the long run, can only help you improve as long as you have a good attitude to working and trying to improve.

But BRABHAMISTA's post is gold and you should really read it, pay attention to it, and understand why he is asking those questions.

Your actual goal--unless your kid is already at a semi-professional level--at least in my opinion-- should be whatever helps your son continue to improve while STILL ENJOYING THE SPORT.

So, you paid this guy for a few coaching sessions for your son. He coached your son and maybe it helped your son improve, yes? That service, you got what you paid for, right. Say the coaching sesson was 1 hour, you paid for that hour, right? Say there were 20, 1 hour sessions and all of them were paid for at the coaches hourly rate. Say the other kid's parents had paid for the same exact amount of coaching with that coach, not more or less. If that kid's parent's hired the coach for in game coaching at the tournament, AND YOU DIDN'T, why should the coach NOT honor the contract he has with the other parent and kid.

Say the situation was reversed. You paid the coach for the SERVICE of tournament match coaching and the other parent/kid didn't and all of a sudden the coach is telling you, "woe, wait a minute, I gave that kid a few lessons. I can't coach your son in this match!!!!" What would you think about that!!!

One thing you have to understand is that coaching a kid in lessons to help the kid play better and improve his skills is a totally different skill and service than coaching the kid in matches in a tournament. Totally different.

And if you did not pay this guy for that service and the other kid's parent did, then it is sort of like complaining that a tax accountant who did your taxes for a few years did not represent you at an audit when you did not pay him for that service.

But NextLevel asked what I think may be a fairly important question.

Are Somerset Tta and JK the same user?


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[NDH]

My 2 cents....

There is a difference between how the Americans play and see the game (mainly tournaments, very individual etc), and we've discussed this in some detail before.

People have given as much info as possible, and you haven't really answered the important questions.

1. How often have you used this coach?
2. How often had the other kid used the coach?

At the end of the day, Table Tennis coaches in the UK are few and far between, so juniors tend to have the same coach if they live in the same area.

If this other kids parents paid the coach to come to the tournament, then I'm afraid he is well within his rights to exploit every weakness your son has (arguably, even if he was your son's coach, although this would be up to him to decide if he felt comfortable or not).

However, I'd take a stab in the dark and say that you wouldn't call this coach "your son's coach", and he's more just a coach who has given your son a few pointers here and there?

As for your point about how you should feel about the coach?

Well.... You are clearly cheesed off (although I wouldn't be) - So if there is another coach in the area who is just as good - There is no harm in moving.

But from experience, if he's a good coach, you'll be hard pushed to find another one close to you.

Finally..... Assuming you are joskelly (Somerset Table Tennis isn't exactly big lol), you should post the videos of your son from your Youtube channel for people to see.

You might get some good tips!

 

[NextLevel]

My 2 cents....

There is a difference between how the Americans play and see the game (mainly tournaments, very individual etc), and we've discussed this in some detail before.

People have given as much info as possible, and you haven't really answered the important questions.

1. How often have you used this coach?
2. How often had the other kid used the coach?

At the end of the day, Table Tennis coaches in the UK are few and far between, so juniors tend to have the same coach if they live in the same area.

If this other kids parents paid the coach to come to the tournament, then I'm afraid he is well within his rights to exploit every weakness your son has (arguably, even if he was your son's coach, although this would be up to him to decide if he felt comfortable or not).

However, I'd take a stab in the dark and say that you wouldn't call this coach "your son's coach", and he's more just a coach who has given your son a few pointers here and there?

As for your point about how you should feel about the coach?

Well.... You are clearly cheesed off (although I wouldn't be) - So if there is another coach in the area who is just as good - There is no harm in moving.

But from experience, if he's a good coach, you'll be hard pushed to find another one close to you.

Finally..... Assuming you are joskelly (Somerset Table Tennis isn't exactly big lol), you should post the videos of your son from your Youtube channel for people to see.

You might get some good tips!

The differences are less meaningful than many people like Yinykin often make out. In fact, the most meaningful difference is how far the USA is from where high level TT play occurs given how important such exposure is at an early age and at various points in one's career and how this negates the serious possibility of professionalism for most talented pros.

We don't have that many coaches or clubs here either and sharing is good coaches is often the case. The thing is that if OP is not close enough to to the coach to discuss this with the coach directly, then OP is just angry his son lost.

 

[izra]

what if 10 other kids took lessons from this coach before? and now the kid that he was paid to coach in that tournament plays against all of them?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The thing is that if OP is not close enough to to the coach to discuss this with the coach directly, then OP is just angry his son lost.

I mostly agree with the basics of this statement. But I will add a few things taking for granted that Somerset Tta is an upstanding kind of guy who wants fairness for his kid in competition, if not a little bit of an edge.

So, it could be anger that his kid lost. It could be anger that a kid who may not have needed help had what he felt was an unfair advantage because some of his kid's weaknesses were exposed.

It could have been that his kid was upset so he was angry or upset about the scenario.

He could just want his kid to do well and thinks that this will harm his kid's progress.

I am guessing he's not one of those crazy "soccer" dads (competition TT dad) who beats up the kid or the father of the kid who beats his kid. And he probably isn't the competition TT dad who beats up the coach of the kid who beats his kid. We hear about that stuff on the news. But I don't think that is Somerset Tta even if he is probably a little T'ed off and wants his kid not to have to deal with those kinds of scenarios.

But, probably the two most important pieces of info are:

1) all losses are material to learn what to improve

2) get a good camera and film all your son's coaching, training and match play that you are able to.

You can use analysis of that video footage to really help your coach and your kid speed up the improvement process to warp speed faster, so that same kid will, at some point, have no chance, even with the help of a good, in-game, strategy coach on hand.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[NextLevel]

what if 10 other kids took lessons from this coach before? and now the kid that he was paid to coach in that tournament plays against all of them?

The same applies. IT's not just taking lessons from the coach but being a regular student of the coach to the point that a relationship has been formed where such things become uncomfortable. MY coach discusses the weaknesses of his students with each other student and sometimes coaches us to beat each other in practice but will not intervene in matches.

 

[izra]

i know, my question was to the OP. you can't expect the coach to not do his job at the tournament simply because all of the kids took 1 or 2 lessons from him at some point.

if they are both equal and regular it's a different story, when two girls i coach played against each other i stepped away and watched from a distance.