Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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At my level I can't flex the wrist unless I am away from the table, it slows down my recovery/overall stroke if I try to do it from close to the table. However, I have found the extra spin and power from that wrist cocking really helps me if I am stuck in the wide forehand an need to take a ball to the middle with the backhand with enough quality for an outright winner or atleast put the opponent on the defensive. Just want to emphasize the point you made "I have become faster" so that it does not get lost on lesser mortals :)
 
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At my level I can't flex the wrist unless I am away from the table, it slows down my recovery/overall stroke if I try to do it from close to the table. However, I have found the extra spin and power from that wrist cocking really helps me if I am stuck in the wide forehand an need to take a ball to the middle with the backhand with enough quality for an outright winner or atleast put the opponent on the defensive. Just want to emphasize the point you made "I have become faster" so that it does not get lost on lesser mortals :)

I think the fact that I play my backhand that way and have a quality forehand that I can play with that grip is the key. Then it becomes more of an issue of how much of the wrist is used on each stroke a long as I consistently try to recover into it and play most strokes out of it, even serves. Many players have similar things going on in their motions even players you may not think do.

By the way, it was on an away from the table stroke that the recommendation was made but sometimes, if you flex your wrist close to the table for opening loop, you will not have to play an away from the table stroke.;)
 
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I have a lot of different good BH shots, but the cocked wrist topspin vs medium or fast incoming topspin a step away from table, I have waited to learn and use in matches. Carl knows this, but i am further along. It is a position and timing thing away from table. When Carl played vs me at Robert Chen's TTC, he knew he could pin me down with fast shots right at me or a tad on my BH side. I wouldn't rip those. Well, I got a couple ways to deal with that now. My BH counter topspin vs a slow heavy loop at the table is much better now, the touch and soft hand.

I have always used a very cocked wrist vs underspin, on BH loops vs a dead ball, I use wrist, but a different wrist.

I see SO MANY people trying to use too much of their upper body to generate that extra power, but all it does is slow stuff down. Shoulder turn creates good torque, but at some point you gotta transfer that power into the lower arm and wrist. People who try to do an 8x8 wheel lock-up drive kinda stroke are asking for reduced power and increased injury.

Close to the table on fast BH to BH exchanges, there is no time to cock your wrist and let it explode. A step away from the table on a somewhat slower ball, yes, time for it and it can be appropriate to use wrist to get extra spin and pace. Close to the table, there is time for only a tiny bit of wrist in those lightning fast exchanges BH to BH.
 
says Spin and more spin.
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Besides, close to the table, vs topspin, all you actually have to do is have good timing as you brush and impact over the top of the ball and you will use the opponent's spin against them. The more spin on the loop coming at you the less you have to do aside from having good timing and accelerating over the ball with a tiny motion.

That is one of my favorite shots and I am sure Der_ remembers seeing me do that vs high spinny loops. :)

One thing for sure is, now that Der_ is at a place where he can play on a more consistent basis, I am sure his level and skills are going up again the way they did in Korea.

BTW Der_, you better look out. Ming is getting better at shakehand. While he is training me up, he is using the KJH blade and getting up to level. I would say he is minimum 1900 shakehand now. :)
 
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Thought I'd let you guys know that I've changed my mind on sandbagging this upcoming tournament. Not out of morals, I honestly don't know what the change of heart is.

I understand that it's looked down on to sandbag but I still don't see why I guess. And you all know me by now, I'm ready with counter arguments and thick headed to where I'd keep countering a point even if your point made is stronger.

I was honestly ready to say something like "the game is played for fun right, let me play it the way I think is fun and do the entire tournament left handed. That sounds like fun to me and losing all the games will just happen to come with it."

Sandbagging no longer happening, have a happy 4th to those in the U.S.


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I have been practicing the super short underspin serves for a good number of days straight already, still cant get the feel of it to do it consistently. I think I may have to settle with just a short spin serve (bounce twice) with less spin on it : / I do wonder if it helps if I warm up first before practicing serves, that way I will have more feel of the ball.
 
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I have been practicing the super short underspin serves for a good number of days straight already, still cant get the feel of it to do it consistently. I think I may have to settle with just a short spin serve (bounce twice) with less spin on it : / I do wonder if it helps if I warm up first before practicing serves, that way I will have more feel of the ball.

IT is actually easier to serve short with backspin than to serve short with less spin as the backspin slows the ball down and pulls the ball backwards. Don't give up. Just be patient and stop stressing so much over it. IF you continue to work on it with the right form, things will get better. I sent you a video that shows you the whole process with serving on the floor and on your bed before you come to the table. Take those videos seriously and take notes, especially on the backspin serve video. Don't think they contain trivial stuff that everyone knows. Brett is a world class server.

Just do one good serve, then put a mark on the table where you served the ball on your side and try to repeat it. IF you want to practice serving faster, put a marker on the table on the other side where the ball must bounce to stay short (usually between 15-30 inches from the net for heavy backspin) and just serve repeatedly and see if you can get the first bounce on the other side before that marker.

Here is me just messing around.

 
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IT is actually easier to serve short with backspin than to serve short with less spin as the backspin slows the ball down and pulls the ball backwards. Don't give up.

Just do one good serve, then put a mark on the table where you served the ball on your side and try to repeat it. IF you want to practice serving faster, put a marker on the table on the other side where the ball must bounce to stay short (usually between 15-30 inches from the net for heavy backspin) and just serve repeatedly and see if you can get the first bounce on the other side before that marker.

Thanks for making the video NL, I think my main problem is controlling the first bounce on my side rather than the other side because my problem is the ball not getting over the net or going straight into the net. Usually when it gets over, it is low and close to the net. I will try again.
 
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Thanks for making the video NL, I think my main problem is controlling the first bounce on my side rather than the other side because my problem is the ball not getting over the net or going straight into the net. Usually when it gets over, it is low and close to the net. I will try again.


Your main problem is that you are thinking too hard. Table tennis is not something that you can control when your body figures it out. It is best to just find the right technique, do one good shot, then put markers on the table and try to reproduce it without focusing on it. You need a lot of zen for best results and best feeling. If you get frustrated or you practice hard in a way that build tension, you will be unable to produce your best results in competition. So just relax - it will happen eventually if you just practice. Stop trying to make it happen with effort. So many times, I just trying for a week and it seems like nothing is happening. Then on day 8, magically, I start getting more than I ever had. Then I realized that I would get the same results as long as I was focused, and it didn't matter whether I stressed out or not. So I stopped stressing out!

If it is low and entering the net, then your first bounce is really far from the net and you are pushing yourself. It is okay to miss a lot during practice as you have a higher margin of error with safe serves during a match. When I practice to improve, I miss over 30% of my serves usually compared to what I am trying to do.

Stop trying too hard - TT does not work that way. The hard work in TT is putting in the hours. But if you put in stress as well, it reduces the quality of the hours. IF you just continue practicing, 20 mins to 1 hour a day, tracking your progress, but letting your brain work and not stressing out, you will be surprised at how you will be serving in 2 weeks. Stress makes it harder to produce results on demand because if you are stressed in practice, you will be even more stressed in a match and it will cause errors. It is better to have little or no stress in practice, and then the match stress will just increase focus.
 
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One time Musa came up to me, this was maybe 2 years ago when I had time to practice serves. I was practicing serves and he said, "just relax." He did this serve where it looked like he barely did anything. But he was so relaxed. And man, it had a ton of spin.

But for short serves, practicing your touch can really help.

The first thing Marcos Freitas does in this video, when I had the time to practice it with a wall, I got way better at making serves and pushes short.



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Thanks NL and Carl. After reading your posts, I went to watch the movie BFG before practicing my serves for the day. Today I just put no pressure on myself and tried to be as relaxing as I could. The result seems to be alot better. I was getting a much higher success rate than previous, and I feel better too even when I make some mistakes. I think watching NL's video of him doing the serve really set a good example for me, as I can see how relaxed he is when he does the serves. One day when I'll post another video of how my serve practice is going.
 
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I advocate a similar progression as NL does for learning short serve touch.

I believe it is real important to do it all in progressive stages without any effort or expectations towards making a successful short serve right away.

One needs the timing and relaxed muscles to go along with the bio-mechanics. it doesn't happen overnight. it took me 6 months practicing every day to get my short serves to land double bounce more than 1/2 the time.

Stage one, learn the bio-mechanics, impact point on BOTTOM of ball, the basic sequence and timing. Practice it by standing up away from table in a hall or rest area, serving to a spot a meter or two away and get ball to spin back. Do that every day as much as you can, minimum 5 minutes a day for a month or more. The goal is to learn the basics and get some reps without pressure, and develop a consistent impact under the ball.

Stage two, do the same thing, but stand a meter or more behind table, impact ball, make it go out, bounce high on your end of table, go over, and start spinning back. This drill reinforces the mechanics and touch, and like the other one, gives you a means to practice without pressure of having to succeed right away, plus you still get to see progress.

Stage three, take it to the table. Serve deliberately high bounce first bounce a foot or so from the net, let it go over net, and have it spin back towards you. This practices the touch more, practices landing it on a target area, and still can show you your progress. this isn't a match serve, but practices all the important mechanics, touch, and landing zone you need.

Stage 4, now you are ready to take it to the table, work on impacting ball just under chest height and make first bounce just past halfway to net. Let ball bounce high, it is OK, you are trying to fine tune your basic impact point height (near chest, and later a tad lower for a lower ball) and you are developing relaxed touch in a more real scenario. Dont go for the tight low serve just yet, simply get used to landing it with good spin and controlled first bounce zone.

Stage 5, now you are ready to try making the bounce lower. Try for impacting it somewhere between belly button and chest, preferable somewhere in the middle of that zone or a tad higher. Control first bounce, learn where you have to aim to get the ball to bounce low, whether that is a tad in front of half or right at half or a tad behind it, learn variation and above all, use a very relaxed grip.

Once you do that enough, you develop the touch and have learned how changing impact height and landing zone and how pressure affects the ball.

This gives you the foundation for a short serve. now you are ready to start adding side spin, and later, deceptive arm/wrist after motions.

Later, you learn how to impact different parts of the ball in different ways to produce a totally different ball with the same serve motion. That is a big-time requirement for a player to develop nasty deceptive serves with variation at will.

later, these serves go along with your serve/attack plan, and/or work to prevent other better players from attacking your serve or at a minimum control their options.

Serve is both science and art... both ends need practice... REGULAR structured practice with an objective and long term goal(s).
 
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What I wrote sounds like a LOT of work.. and it is, but i was (still am) a knucklehead, it took me way longer to make visible progress, prolly took me 3x longer than anyone else on this planet, but I got there. My serves are a great asset to my game at my level, but I realize I still need to get better and evolve my serves, they are not overwhelmingly effective vs the majority of the 2200-2300 crowd.

I say that so anyone can realize with effective structured work, anyone can greatly improve their serving to a point where it gives them an immediate offensive advantage when they serve.
 
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Jeff, serve practice should just be playing around. Do you think I gave a shit about bounce height or amount of spin or placement or whatever when I was learning my serves in the beginning, when I was learning my short serves or my spinny serves or whatever crazy thing I saw somewhere?

All I did was read the theory so I have a general idea of what I want, then just did serves until it started looking and feeling good. I wasn't thinking "Oh no I need to get my bounce lower" or "Oh no I need to learn to control my placement better" because that wasn't fun and wasn't gonna lead anywhere. I was DOING, all the time, for hours. I wasn't expecting to immediately improve during the same day or even the same week. And I don't think overthinking would have made me suddenly improve.

Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Serving is an art after all. There is a time and place for worrying about the technical details and attempting to up the quality of your serve, but maybe you need to be honest with yourself and realize you don't need to be so technical right now.

Maybe I'm totally wrong and this matter demands stringent practice with no fun allowed, but somehow I don't think so.
 
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Archo, you got the part right about relaxing, not demanding too much right away, and not overthinking.

You are light years off in the department of technical. One has to understand the technical details and develop the serve to where it is doing it intuitively on a subconscious level. One needs to know contact point is very bottom for pure underspin and the other points to get the other spins. There is no avoiding knowing basic concepts and some of the basic technical, it is all needed to learn how to manipulate the serve. Of course, when it comes time to do it, the player isn't thinking consciously to strike the ball here and at this time with this pressure and do this with the arm/wrist afterwards.... the player thinks what endstate they want and go do it. You cannot get to that point by using only Jedi meditation, one must know principles and how to apply them or the player simply won't get the job done.

Archo, I see you like TT and want to contribute, I was like that when i started foruming too. You gotta get a better sense of what and when to say. Failure is OK, I must have failed a billion times.

My first few years of foruming, I was an average club level player as a recreational player who knew next to jack-crap about the basic or fine technical details of stuff, yet I was on forums talking about it. I must have been talking out my azz, I sure didn't know my stuff to the degree I should, yet I was foruming. I think I only got away without getting a riot or a ban because I wasn't too overboard and I encouraged a lot, and told funny stories too.
 
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Jeff, serve practice should just be playing around. Do you think I gave a shit about bounce height or amount of spin or placement or whatever when I was learning my serves in the beginning, when I was learning my short serves or my spinny serves or whatever crazy thing I saw somewhere?

All I did was read the theory so I have a general idea of what I want, then just did serves until it started looking and feeling good. I wasn't thinking "Oh no I need to get my bounce lower" or "Oh no I need to learn to control my placement better" because that wasn't fun and wasn't gonna lead anywhere. I was DOING, all the time, for hours. I wasn't expecting to immediately improve during the same day or even the same week. And I don't think overthinking would have made me suddenly improve.

Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Serving is an art after all. There is a time and place for worrying about the technical details and attempting to up the quality of your serve, but maybe you need to be honest with yourself and realize you don't need to be so technical right now.

Maybe I'm totally wrong and this matter demands stringent practice with no fun allowed, but somehow I don't think so.

You must have some great serves, Archo. Any video to share? You will continue to bring out head scratching the more posts you make on things you have not seriously worked on. DerEchte and I are speaking from years of serving practice experience under the guidance of high level players. What are you speaking from? Imagination?
 
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Archo, you got the part right about relaxing, not demanding too much right away, and not overthinking.

You are light years off in the department of technical. One has to understand the technical details and develop the serve to where it is doing it intuitively on a subconscious level. One needs to know contact point is very bottom for pure underspin and the other points to get the other spins. There is no avoiding knowing basic concepts and some of the basic technical, it is all needed to learn how to manipulate the serve. Of course, when it comes time to do it, the player isn't thinking consciously to strike the ball here and at this time with this pressure and do this with the arm/wrist afterwards.... the player thinks what endstate they want and go do it. You cannot get to that point by using only Jedi meditation, one must know principles and how to apply them or the player simply won't get the job done.

Archo, I see you like TT and want to contribute, I was like that when i started foruming too. You gotta get a better sense of what and when to say. Failure is OK, I must have failed a billion times.

My first few years of foruming, I was an average club level player as a recreational player who knew next to jack-crap about the basic or fine technical details of stuff, yet I was on forums talking about it. I must have been talking out my azz, I sure didn't know my stuff to the degree I should, yet I was foruming. I think I only got away without getting a riot or a ban because I wasn't too overboard and I encouraged a lot, and told funny stories too.

You gotta know your audience. I would be really surprised if Archo was a better server than JEffM. Anyways, enough of archo. I used to post a lot like archo too, but the difference was that my level was written all over every post and I Was mostly regurgitating things that my coach or better players had told me or things that I had tried.

Serving is actually the biggest area where the rewards for being technical early are exponential.
 
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Hey, I never said NL or Echte were wrong. You're absolutely right. You can't just start bashing and expect to get better.

However, I somehow think Jeff already "knows" the technical details. Like I used to "know" some technical details but had absolutely no actual idea on what to do, in a feeling sense. Do you understand what I mean?
 
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Until (our NexyUSA CEO) Bogeyhunter on a brief visit I did to Baltimore way back then, he explained some basic concepts to me about serving, I was really lost in the sauce with no direction and improvement before that. Some basic technical knowledge is paramount. It gave me a foundation to explore and learn further, plus he and others continued to be on forums to help.

If I never ran into him and heard just 10 minutes of explanation and received the vids he gave me, I would likely still be a crappy server and only an average USA club level player. That day defined a turn for the better in my game and level going forward.
 
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