Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

So I am preparing for another event this weekend. I worked with my coach on some things. We are trying to shorten my stroke. One of the interesting things that came up was my Karate follow through (heel coming off the ground) on some of my forehand strokes. He said he wanted the weight transfer to mostly be in the hips and that both feet should be planted. When I got closer to what he wanted, it felt like transferring weight over the inside halves of my feet. Which brought me back to a comment that Dubina once made that if you check where high level players wear out their shoes the most, it is on the inside halves of their feet. If the movement doesn't hurt my knees, it might affect my footwork approach and insights in a significant way. It's far more shoe indifferent than what I used to do before, that's for sure.

Also probably going to switch to D05 on the forehand but I have decided to delay that after this weekends event. The problem is just that short stroking without a dynamic sponge is hard and the only dynamic sponge for Skyline 3 (3-60) isn't hard enough for what I like to do with my forehand. It will mean a lot of work on short play and spin handling, but regardless, the Dignics series is still relatively slow ball release compared to the Tenergy series, even without the 09c tack.

So tomorrow, I go to Austin and start to take on the friendly bets/wagers from fellow members of the crew that I am a part of that is organizing the tournament on Saturday. Hopefully my body will perform under the pressure.

Idk if the shoe thing is from the weight transfer though. My TT shoes are always worn on the inside portion, but I think that's mostly due to left/right movement.

 

[Der_Echte]

Not sure why you wouldnt snap your forearm even in a straight-arm stroke. For me if that doesnt happen there is a massive loss of spin. The benefit of going from straight to bent is that it increases the rotational speed of the bat which all acts to increase spin generated. Even if the snap magnitude is small it is always still there.

For me I actually went the opposite way. I went from straight arm technique to bent arm for topspin rallying because it links better with my BH, but I'm retaining the straight arm loop for opening loops because imo it is more dangerous.

NL said the quiet part out loud. Short arm short compact stroke, or long extended arm both require use of lower arm with upper arm slowing down somewhere before impact.

 

[dingyibvs]

I had quite a revelation the past couple of days. I've been having some issues attacking the return from my long fast services with my BH, so I practiced that against my training partner yesterday. It went fine when I used the counter against it, but I whiffed a LOT when I tried to loop.

So today, I did some training against the robot. I set up a sequence of 6 balls from +5 spin (heavy) to 0 (no spin), in order. It went hilariously bad, I was either too slow or too fast to the ball. So I thought I'd simplify it, just 2 ball in sequence, +5 and 0 spin. And guess what, it was just about as bad! Even though I could loop both balls if they were the only ones in sequence, I could not loop them back-to-back.

I always knew I had issues with timing during games, and it's why I could both counter and loop like a monster during practice but can't do it in games. I thought I just needed to watch the ball more carefully and move better, but turns out the issue isn't so much that I'm not aware of the speed/spin change, but that I simply can't adjust my stroke quickly enough. That's gonna be a part of my training now, to hit balls of varying spins back to back.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

after 1 month holidays in Europe, i started to practice again. Elbow is more painful than after 1 month without playing, so why not play ? maybe i'll actually feel better ?

 

[Wrighty67]

I had quite a revelation the past couple of days. I've been having some issues attacking the return from my long fast services with my BH, so I practiced that against my training partner yesterday. It went fine when I used the counter against it, but I whiffed a LOT when I tried to loop.

So today, I did some training against the robot. I set up a sequence of 6 balls from +5 spin (heavy) to 0 (no spin), in order. It went hilariously bad, I was either too slow or too fast to the ball. So I thought I'd simplify it, just 2 ball in sequence, +5 and 0 spin. And guess what, it was just about as bad! Even though I could loop both balls if they were the only ones in sequence, I could not loop them back-to-back.

I always knew I had issues with timing during games, and it's why I could both counter and loop like a monster during practice but can't do it in games. I thought I just needed to watch the ball more carefully and move better, but turns out the issue isn't so much that I'm not aware of the speed/spin change, but that I simply can't adjust my stroke quickly enough. That's gonna be a part of my training now, to hit balls of varying spins back to back.

I suffer with this too - particularly when playing either a LP player or when I loop and then try to counter. Often my issue is that I tend to drop my bat/arm habitually and so mistime the shot that doesn't require this (or I hit it long or top edge)

 

[blahness]

I had quite a revelation the past couple of days. I've been having some issues attacking the return from my long fast services with my BH, so I practiced that against my training partner yesterday. It went fine when I used the counter against it, but I whiffed a LOT when I tried to loop.

So today, I did some training against the robot. I set up a sequence of 6 balls from +5 spin (heavy) to 0 (no spin), in order. It went hilariously bad, I was either too slow or too fast to the ball. So I thought I'd simplify it, just 2 ball in sequence, +5 and 0 spin. And guess what, it was just about as bad! Even though I could loop both balls if they were the only ones in sequence, I could not loop them back-to-back.

I always knew I had issues with timing during games, and it's why I could both counter and loop like a monster during practice but can't do it in games. I thought I just needed to watch the ball more carefully and move better, but turns out the issue isn't so much that I'm not aware of the speed/spin change, but that I simply can't adjust my stroke quickly enough. That's gonna be a part of my training now, to hit balls of varying spins back to back.

This is why fast long serves (with variation) to the BH/middle are so popular these days. With BH there is a limited target window and once you miss it (ball exits your triangle created by the body and your 2 arms), it is super difficult to control it.

For me, i use a very similar body posture to loop all BH balls, but my brush contact and how I use my fingers are different for each of the 7 spin types (FH pendulum sideunder and sidetop, BH pendulum sideunder and sidetop, heavy pure backspin, no spin, topspin). So yeah I have 7 different brushing methods (different contact points, different method of brushing and use of fingers) I employ against these 7 types of spin in my head. So if I miss, I know I misread the spin or if I miss against a particular spin type too much I will go train against it all the time.

What you can do is to train against a single type of spin to various placements and make sure that you can execute the loop >90% of the time and memorise the type of brushing contact you do - it also has to be physically super easy (can be executed with or without body support) to make it better in match situations. Then move on to the next spin type.

For me I'm very weak against fast FH pendulum sideunderspin to my FH (esp from a BH push against my hook serve) so I'm training it most of the time lol.

 

[netdriver]

@netdriver
I remembered you to be a Singaporean, but you changed your flag to Malaysia. What happened? Our Hainanese Chicken Rice is better right?

NB: Singapore and Malaysia has this on going rivalry regarding whose street food is better that has gone on for decade.

NBB: Current Prime Minister of Singapore's father is a Malaysian. Imagine the President of US father being a Mexican or Canadian. Something like that.

i have always been malaysian maybe you were confusing me with driversbeat, although me and driversbeat did play with each other before in real life

 

[netdriver]

@netdriver Often, constantly hitting ball long is sign of impacting the ball too early hitting too far in front... or coming out of crouch too early.

Another way to say this is that the player perceives the ball to arrive at the strike zone earlier than it actually does.

Another way to explain it is the player selected a position a little too far back.

The two ways to correct it is to move forard a little more.. or WAIT for the ball a little longer.

YOu often hear Korean coaches telling amateur players to wait more for the ball and strike it a little later.

after some reflection the issue is definitely lack of firming at impact

how should i practice this as an adult learner?

@blahness @NextLevel it is poor wording on my part; my coach does want me to snap the forearm but he wants me to also shorten the snap when i contact the ball because my old forearm snap motion was too big/extreme.

my arm being "too relaxed" makes up the bulk of my coach's critique of my forehand stroke. he says that i should take control of my arm more. he also wants me to change my backswing from dropping my blade down to more of a straight-back backswing.

you can already tell that my arm is pretty stiff from trying to be in control of my arm, thats pretty much where my frustration came from.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

As mentioned and promised, my latest video. This is a actual game play with my current coach. It was a best of five but I can only win one match and I will only show the one set I won.
Nope! I am not gonna embarrass myself by showing you that set where I lost 2-11, nope! Not gonna happen.

This video is his teaching / advise to me after the first set where my coach destroyed me 11-2. After listening to his coaching advise, manage to not lose 11-2 again, and the bonus being able to win one set off him.

 

[NextLevel]

after some reflection the issue is definitely lack of firming at impact

how should i practice this as an adult learner?

@blahness @NextLevel it is poor wording on my part; my coach does want me to snap the forearm but he wants me to also shorten the snap when i contact the ball because my old forearm snap motion was too big/extreme.

my arm being "too relaxed" makes up the bulk of my coach's critique of my forehand stroke. he says that i should take control of my arm more. he also wants me to change my backswing from dropping my blade down to more of a straight-back backswing.

you can already tell that my arm is pretty stiff from trying to be in control of my arm, thats pretty much where my frustration came from.

As an adult learner, you can and should work on your technique and practice anything you enjoy. It is good to work with high level players and coaches and get their insights and see what you can implement. IMHO, a lot of the stuff that kids learn later like finger use and wrist subtleties are good candidates for things for adults learners to learn or even learn early. Adult learners sometime get caught working on things that will take forever to implement and which don't really improve ball quality.

Sounds like your coach is working on something similar to what my coach is trying to make me do. I have gotten so comfortable spinning and rallying that I rarely implement finishing strokes but my coach is showing me that such strokes still exist and I need to work a bit more on them. And they don't need big backswing, they need better body usage and follow throughs.

 

[NextLevel]

As mentioned and promised, my latest video. This is a actual game play with my current coach. It was a best of five but I can only win one match and I will only show the one set I won.
Nope! I am not gonna embarrass myself by showing you that set where I lost 2-11, nope! Not gonna happen.

@Gozo Aruna, I know you are joking to give us a fuller picture but even if this is not for you, please stop this desire not to show supposedly embarassing scores or moments. Most of the people who will watch and comment on the videos will not focus on the score but the quality of play within the points. My first coach used to make the point that let's say my rating was updated by USATT to 2500 just for myself only. Would that make me a 2500 player? Could I now beat players 2400 because my rating was now 2500? The only effect would be to make me seeded high in some events and make it impossible for me to enter other events.

Even watching this match, you take a lot of technically wrong swings with your forehand even on points you won (not the end of the world). Those things indicate your technical level regardless of the score. That said, there were examples of good rallies and impressive ball control. Well done.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

@Gozo Aruna, I know you are joking to give us a fuller picture but even if this is not for you, please stop this desire not to show supposedly embarassing scores or moments. Most of the people who will watch and comment on the videos will not focus on the score but the quality of play within the points. My first coach used to make the point that let's say my rating was updated by USATT to 2500 just for myself only. Would that make me a 2500 player? Could I now beat players 2400 because my rating was now 2500? The only effect would be to make me seeded high in some events and make it impossible for me to enter other events.

Even watching this match, you take a lot of technically wrong swings with your forehand even on points you won (not the end of the world). Those things indicate your technical level regardless of the score. That said, there were examples of good rallies and impressive ball control. Well done.

NL, on the subject of impressive ball control, this is what a non high tension, soft sponge rubber can do in open game play rally 😎

 

[NextLevel]

NL, on the subject of impressive ball control, this is what a non high tension, soft sponge rubber can do in open game play rally 😎

Haha, maybe. Man makes the money, money never makes the man.

 

[Der_Echte]

after some reflection the issue is definitely lack of firming at impact

how should i practice this as an adult learner?

@blahness @NextLevel it is poor wording on my part; my coach does want me to snap the forearm but he wants me to also shorten the snap when i contact the ball because my old forearm snap motion was too big/extreme.

my arm being "too relaxed" makes up the bulk of my coach's critique of my forehand stroke. he says that i should take control of my arm more. he also wants me to change my backswing from dropping my blade down to more of a straight-back backswing.

you can already tell that my arm is pretty stiff from trying to be in control of my arm, thats pretty much where my frustration came from.

How to practice firming up?

You need to be loose and firm right at impact. Kinda hard to try to do practice that under pressure using big swings like you are in match doing points.

I would say give it a try at being in a more controlled environment...

... do not go for huge swings... shorten the swing some and go for less power.

Focus on being relaxed and try to firm up right at impact. Do not over swing. Just try to hit ball in strike zone. Allow ball to come to zone and firm up at impact.

This isolates things and makes it easier to practice what is important for developing this - IMPACT..

 

[Der_Echte]

@netdriver , once you get the feel of how to firm up at impact and can do it consistently (you will still hear a loud wood sound from bat even at half power if you firm up at the right moment)... once you get that down, progressively use longer swing and more power as much as you can stay consistent.

later, you will have it correct even on big swings.

 

[dingyibvs]

This is why fast long serves (with variation) to the BH/middle are so popular these days. With BH there is a limited target window and once you miss it (ball exits your triangle created by the body and your 2 arms), it is super difficult to control it.

For me, i use a very similar body posture to loop all BH balls, but my brush contact and how I use my fingers are different for each of the 7 spin types (FH pendulum sideunder and sidetop, BH pendulum sideunder and sidetop, heavy pure backspin, no spin, topspin). So yeah I have 7 different brushing methods (different contact points, different method of brushing and use of fingers) I employ against these 7 types of spin in my head. So if I miss, I know I misread the spin or if I miss against a particular spin type too much I will go train against it all the time.

What you can do is to train against a single type of spin to various placements and make sure that you can execute the loop >90% of the time and memorise the type of brushing contact you do - it also has to be physically super easy (can be executed with or without body support) to make it better in match situations. Then move on to the next spin type.

For me I'm very weak against fast FH pendulum sideunderspin to my FH (esp from a BH push against my hook serve) so I'm training it most of the time lol.

For me, the issue is really the timing more than anything. On the simple alternating heavy spin/no spin drill, I constantly hit the edge of the racket with the heavy spin while whiffed or reached for the no spin ball. I knew exactly which ball is coming, and I could loop them with great power and consistency when there's no alternation, but I just couldn't do it when they come at me back-to-back.

This really sheds so much light on what's been ailing my BH. I see now why @SleepyMaster's coach makes him practice against +3/+4 spin balls, and why in practice I can beat my training partner in a BH vs. FH loop contest yet can't seem to make the far simpler shots in games. I need to practice more against lower spin balls, and practice timing variations from shot to shot.

This is quite a revelation to me, and a very exciting one! I now know exactly what I need to work on. In practice my BH is quite beastly now even against very difficult shots like full-powered FH loops, if I could translate that into games it'd result in a huge elevation in my game. My only concern right now is how training against the robot will translate into real games, as in real games there will be an added element of judging the ball before adjusting the timing. We'll see. If my theory is correct that the main problem is not my judgment but my ability to adjust according to the judgment, then it should translate pretty well. I had a similar issue with my BH opening loop, practicing only against heavy backspin. Once I added lighter backspin to my practice my consistency improved significantly in games, so I'm hoping the same can happen here.

 

[SleepyMaster]

For me, the issue is really the timing more than anything. On the simple alternating heavy spin/no spin drill, I constantly hit the edge of the racket with the heavy spin while whiffed or reached for the no spin ball. I knew exactly which ball is coming, and I could loop them with great power and consistency when there's no alternation, but I just couldn't do it when they come at me back-to-back.

This really sheds so much light on what's been ailing my BH. I see now why @SleepyMaster's coach makes him practice against +3/+4 spin balls, and why in practice I can beat my training partner in a BH vs. FH loop contest yet can't seem to make the far simpler shots in games. I need to practice more against lower spin balls, and practice timing variations from shot to shot.

This is quite a revelation to me, and a very exciting one! I now know exactly what I need to work on. In practice my BH is quite beastly now even against very difficult shots like full-powered FH loops, if I could translate that into games it'd result in a huge elevation in my game. My only concern right now is how training against the robot will translate into real games, as in real games there will be an added element of judging the ball before adjusting the timing. We'll see. If my theory is correct that the main problem is not my judgment but my ability to adjust according to the judgment, then it should translate pretty well. I had a similar issue with my BH opening loop, practicing only against heavy backspin. Once I added lighter backspin to my practice my consistency improved significantly in games, so I'm hoping the same can happen here.

I guess the best way is to working on different spins. Depends on exercise. But higher spins can be beneficial also - that’s all situational things.

When I do multi ball on a robot I do all the spins and variations (slight topspin’s for movement drills/high amount of spin for counter spin/no spin ball at diff placements for a feeling of the ball/under spin from one spot or randomly) - anyway the goal is to getting used to all the spins and variations - because for all of them you should need slight of adjustment. And the more quickly you adapt the better player you are.

That’s why playing against different players is beneficial also - everyone giving you back a different ball and the question is - can you recognize the spin/amount of it and make a quick and correct execution.
That’s why some people tend to feel that they really play kinda better against stronger players - because you can use quality of high level player that comes back to you and getting used to it. And after that badly losing to some random dude that just giving all back without outstanding quality or spin and now you in the situation of needing to create them (quality and spin) by yourself - if you not used to it - you would had a bad day.

As one of the guys from our club was telling me once after I was missing some shot that I assumed was “easy” - “there is no easy balls - every ball should be treated properly or you will end up making an error after error”

 

[blahness]

For me, the issue is really the timing more than anything. On the simple alternating heavy spin/no spin drill, I constantly hit the edge of the racket with the heavy spin while whiffed or reached for the no spin ball. I knew exactly which ball is coming, and I could loop them with great power and consistency when there's no alternation, but I just couldn't do it when they come at me back-to-back.

This really sheds so much light on what's been ailing my BH. I see now why @SleepyMaster's coach makes him practice against +3/+4 spin balls, and why in practice I can beat my training partner in a BH vs. FH loop contest yet can't seem to make the far simpler shots in games. I need to practice more against lower spin balls, and practice timing variations from shot to shot.

This is quite a revelation to me, and a very exciting one! I now know exactly what I need to work on. In practice my BH is quite beastly now even against very difficult shots like full-powered FH loops, if I could translate that into games it'd result in a huge elevation in my game. My only concern right now is how training against the robot will translate into real games, as in real games there will be an added element of judging the ball before adjusting the timing. We'll see. If my theory is correct that the main problem is not my judgment but my ability to adjust according to the judgment, then it should translate pretty well. I had a similar issue with my BH opening loop, practicing only against heavy backspin. Once I added lighter backspin to my practice my consistency improved significantly in games, so I'm hoping the same can happen here.

Not just backspin and no-spin, there are 5 other spin types to practise against. Furthermore, there are also placement and speed/length variations - middle/deep BH/wide exiting sides + half long vs fast long. And against a server who can vary all of these it is quite important to be able to immediately adjust.

The other important thing is to be able to loop it down the line, because for a lot of good servers, they are also aiming to aggressively counter the loop.

 

[dingyibvs]

Not just backspin and no-spin, there are 5 other spin types to practise against. Furthermore, there are also placement and speed/length variations - middle/deep BH/wide exiting sides + half long vs fast long. And against a server who can vary all of these it is quite important to be able to immediately adjust.

The other important thing is to be able to loop it down the line, because for a lot of good servers, they are also aiming to aggressively counter the loop.

Yeah, I'll have to practice some more against those. I'm having particular issues with banana flicking reverse spin services to the wide FH. I think the main issue given that my stroke is fairly basic right now is that the ball curves to my right and I'm not stepping far enough right to hit that shot. Players who are very good can sidespin flick most things to the opponent's wide FH, but that's a shot I have not been attempting.

As for looping down the line in general, I'm finding it a bit easier since I started working on my BH footwork. At first I was just hopping for hopping's sake, which results in poor timing, but now it's feeling pretty natural. My trick was just to focus on aiming the left side of my belly to the ball. Once I've been able to do that, it became a lot easier to loop down the line as well. Before that I was doing the arm-extension thing to get the ball down the line, which is also very effective and has its own pros and cons, but I want the proper loop within my arsenal as well.

 

[netdriver]

@netdriver , once you get the feel of how to firm up at impact and can do it consistently (you will still hear a loud wood sound from bat even at half power if you firm up at the right moment)... once you get that down, progressively use longer swing and more power as much as you can stay consistent.

later, you will have it correct even on big swings.

thanks for the advice, ill be implementing it in my practice sessions

though there is one question, isn't the sound of wood a no-no? ive had players better than me saying that the cracking sound is something to avoid and i should look for a more subtle sound when i brush the ball

during my experimentation i did manage to make a loud crack at times but i didnt stick through it due to the aforementioned advice ive been given