Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

Got a lot of trips coming up, first one to Maui this Saturday, so went to the Alameda club's round robin today. I usually like it there because the RRs are giant, you get to play a lot of matches. Today however, the owner decided to change things up a month before his retirement. We were all given revised ratings and made to play in 4-5 person groups, in matches that are best of 7 . For whatever reason I was revised up to the mid-1800s and got assigned to group 1, where the rest were all easily over 2000. I was really hoping to work on implementing my recent trainings in games, but now I had to just play my most comfortable game just not to get embarrassed. Not ideal lol.

Anyhow, I ended up playing decent, but everything I was working on wasn't quite there yet, so I ended up playing very unevenly. Some flashes of brilliance, and some moments of absolute discombobulation, lost all matches as expected After the RR I played a couple more matches against lower group players. In the first one I mostly worked on my BH timing which I was able to make a LOT of progress in applying it to game situations by the end of the match. I noticed that my misses were mostly due to not being in the best position, so the next match I focused on footwork. I've always been a pretty solid athlete, and I think I've been over reliant on athleticism rather than actual footwork, and this is something I've started correcting the past few weeks. This match ended up being the first time ever that I was able to keep my feet moving before my opponent strikes the ball, a sign that the training is working!

What I also realized is that footwork and responding to pace changes are very complementary. If you want a weaker shot by the opponent during a BH rally to turn from a miss into a winner, I need to do more than just adjust to the timing. That can avoid a miss, but to make it into an opportunity I need to move my feet as well. I've worked on my footwork and response to pace changes separately, but I'm gonna combine the two going forward both in practice and in games.

 

[Der_Echte]

@dingyibvs As crazy stupid as it sounds, Der_Echte as a near 60 yr old bear sized munchkin relied on athleticism too much.

I have been doing essentially the same thing... had good capable technical shots, but was not in optimal position right away or ever and relied on athleticism to get close enough to put enough hot sauce on the ball to get the job done.

One thing that was a recurring fault of mine was my base ready position, specifically where I position my arm and elbow on reset. If I am able to keep the arm and elbow more forward, with say the elbow being in front and to the side a few inches of the front of my rib cage, then it just made it easier to do everything, include MOVE... and do it quicker... and use less stepping... and be in position on time with leverage... and be able to get back and do it again.

This has made wonderful things happen for me in rallies close to table and a step away... which was a major weakness for me - I tried to avoid prolonged rallies... now I am winning a lot more of them and can rally out if needed.

This is helping both my singles and double performance. I simply have to move less to be in position, which greatly helps my efficiency and overall performance.

This one adjustment is probably worth a few levels by itself.

 

[Der_Echte]

Had a 4 hour training yesterday with John Rambo Daniil without anyone trying to get on the table for matches. Had maybe 350 training balls to use. Did many static and dynamic drills, many combination drills, many drills with a certain sequence then free to play to win point.

Legs were smoke city afterwards.

We both wore our Yellow Lion uniforms with black background.

The same ones as in the pic below I took with Sergey don't call me Scoobie Doo.

 

[Jslick89]

Had a 4 hour training yesterday with John Rambo Daniil without anyone trying to get on the table for matches. Had maybe 350 training balls to use. Did many static and dynamic drills, many combination drills, many drills with a certain sequence then free to play to win point.

Legs were smoke city afterwards.

We both wore our Yellow Lion uniforms with black background.

The same ones as in the pic below I took with Sergey don't call me Scoobie Doo.

View attachment 32001

is this the russian church?

 

[dingyibvs]

@dingyibvs As crazy stupid as it sounds, Der_Echte as a near 60 yr old bear sized munchkin relied on athleticism too much.

I have been doing essentially the same thing... had good capable technical shots, but was not in optimal position right away or ever and relied on athleticism to get close enough to put enough hot sauce on the ball to get the job done.

One thing that was a recurring fault of mine was my base ready position, specifically where I position my arm and elbow on reset. If I am able to keep the arm and elbow more forward, with say the elbow being in front and to the side a few inches of the front of my rib cage, then it just made it easier to do everything, include MOVE... and do it quicker... and use less stepping... and be in position on time with leverage... and be able to get back and do it again.

This has made wonderful things happen for me in rallies close to table and a step away... which was a major weakness for me - I tried to avoid prolonged rallies... now I am winning a lot more of them and can rally out if needed.

This is helping both my singles and double performance. I simply have to move less to be in position, which greatly helps my efficiency and overall performance.

This one adjustment is probably worth a few levels by itself.

Yes, I think that's a big issue of mine as well. I've always been a much, much more FH oriented player so I tend to have my elbow back ready for a FH shot or a BH block, and that's very often an issue as I try to be more aggressive on the BH side. In a BH practice I'd keep my elbow at the optimal position, but once the game starts I get back to old habits.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, I think that's a big issue of mine as well. I've always been a much, much more FH oriented player so I tend to have my elbow back ready for a FH shot or a BH block, and that's very often an issue as I try to be more aggressive on the BH side. In a BH practice I'd keep my elbow at the optimal position, but once the game starts I get back to old habits.

Lots of footwork drills starting with match serves and returns with the elbow in the right position.

 

[blahness]

Yes, I think that's a big issue of mine as well. I've always been a much, much more FH oriented player so I tend to have my elbow back ready for a FH shot or a BH block, and that's very often an issue as I try to be more aggressive on the BH side. In a BH practice I'd keep my elbow at the optimal position, but once the game starts I get back to old habits.

imo it is quite important to have FH and BH structure using similar grip as well as elbow positions. If you watch a lot of BH players (see for eg Fan Zhendong, Harimoto, Lin Yun Ju), their FHs have relatively higher elbows too, whereas if you look at Ma Long which has a relatively low elbow position - he also keeps his low elbow position during BH.

Otherwise there's an awkward change that is required when you switch from FH to BH and vice versa.

The other thing is that I find it almost impossible to try powering from both wings in a rally - one side must be the stronger side to power off. There are certain 'modes' of play. For eg you can focus on speed on BH and aim to use FH to powerloop weak balls to seize the initiative. Or you can use continuous BH pressure topspin play, but then it is almost impossible to use FH powerloop in this scenario, so the FH has to be focused more on spin, placement and speed (ie something more like a quick counter).

 

[Der_Echte]

imo it is quite important to have FH and BH structure using similar grip as well as elbow positions. If you watch a lot of BH players (see for eg Fan Zhendong, Harimoto, Lin Yun Ju), their FHs have relatively higher elbows too, whereas if you look at Ma Long which has a relatively low elbow position - he also keeps his low elbow position during BH.

Otherwise there's an awkward change that is required when you switch from FH to BH and vice versa.

The other thing is that I find it almost impossible to try powering from both wings in a rally - one side must be the stronger side to power off. There are certain 'modes' of play. For eg you can focus on speed on BH and aim to use FH to powerloop weak balls to seize the initiative. Or you can use continuous BH pressure topspin play, but then it is almost impossible to use FH powerloop in this scenario, so the FH has to be focused more on spin, placement and speed (ie something more like a quick counter).

@blahness is totally barking up the right tree (an American expression meaning going in the right direction on some issue) on this. (how elbow position on ready and reset ready sets things up) How you position your arm and elbow on ready or reset ready determines a LOT about what you can do next.

Many players never realize they have too compressed a reset position with elbow too far behind middle side of rib cage... some low some high, but many too deep behind... it really hinders how one can get to FH ball and transition FH to BH and BH to FH and how to move and how to be on balance and how to use less of a step to get to the ball on FH.

Once one monkey around with different position forward, one can really see what works and not... and what the trade off is for higher or lower.

I totally disagree with blahness about being able to play both wings strong in a rally... it is possible, and I did it multiple times today training a few hours with John Rambo Daniil (UKR player)... it is about being in a good ready position with leverage, seeing the ball at impact, and waiting to move until after impact... you will surprise urself with how quick you can move to one wing and be ready for ball on other wing and send ur opponent or training partner to the Dog Pound to eat Quarter Pounders.

Until I got my elbow rest position a little forward and to side of middle of rib cage, I could only play one wing strong.

So I guess blahness is double good barking here... if one can get an effective elbow position forward and assuming all else is solid, one can really move and get stuff done on both wings on balance and be ready for more.

 

[Der_Echte]

Yes, I think that's a big issue of mine as well. I've always been a much, much more FH oriented player so I tend to have my elbow back ready for a FH shot or a BH block, and that's very often an issue as I try to be more aggressive on the BH side. In a BH practice I'd keep my elbow at the optimal position, but once the game starts I get back to old habits.

I have somehow drifted into exactly what you described... on reset elbow several inches behind rib cage... it was like I was almost already cheating on the FH backswing to be more compact.

One thing Angie and Stellan Bengston showed me at their camp recently was exactly that... that this elbow position hinders a LOT of things.

... and just to show them and the rest of the TT world that Der_Echte seems to have nothing but a bunch of rocks between his ears (an American expression for low intelligence)... I had to be told about this 3 days straight.

When I could finally pop my head out of my azz on this (an Amercian military expression for being to stupid on something) i could suddenly move and hit with leverage and power and transition to BH or FH and hit hard, move and be ready and do it over and over in a rally.

This was really a game changer for me. I feel like I can play several levels of TT better right now, even tired after a full week 8 hrs training and the last two days averaging 3-4 hard hours.

@dingyibvs when we meetup in person next time, it will not take long to show you... and if you can manage this ready position of elbow a few inches in front and side of rib cage, with your athleticism, you will surprise yourself with what you would now do.

I will be doing the Saratoga tourney on 22 Sep if you get back in time, also Ali will be there. he is a former elite TT athlete, but was out for over 30 years and the sport is entirely a new sport now.

 

[blahness]

@blahness is totally barking up the right tree (an American expression meaning going in the right direction on some issue) on this. (how elbow position on ready and reset ready sets things up) How you position your arm and elbow on ready or reset ready determines a LOT about what you can do next.

Many players never realize they have too compressed a reset position with elbow too far behind middle side of rib cage... some low some high, but many too deep behind... it really hinders how one can get to FH ball and transition FH to BH and BH to FH and how to move and how to be on balance and how to use less of a step to get to the ball on FH.

Once one monkey around with different position forward, one can really see what works and not... and what the trade off is for higher or lower.

I totally disagree with blahness about being able to play both wings strong in a rally... it is possible, and I did it multiple times today training a few hours with John Rambo Daniil (UKR player)... it is about being in a good ready position with leverage, seeing the ball at impact, and waiting to move until after impact... you will surprise urself with how quick you can move to one wing and be ready for ball on other wing and send ur opponent or training partner to the Dog Pound to eat Quarter Pounders.

Until I got my elbow rest position a little forward and to side of middle of rib cage, I could only play one wing strong.

So I guess blahness is double good barking here... if one can get an effective elbow position forward and assuming all else is solid, one can really move and get stuff done on both wings on balance and be ready for more.

I have a slightly higher elbow in general because i do a lot of chiquita and am a bit more BH dominant. I also do my FH more starting with a hooked grip but I am fine with that because it is quite easy to generate a lot of spin with that grip using finger assisted pronation.

But yeah I think it is super difficult in a fast paced rally to actually powerloop from both wings close to table especially if opponent is also returning with quality - obviously if they return weak balls then you can do whatever you want. Kudos to those who can do it but I gave up on it lol - it was way too demanding and I dont train enough footwork to be able to do that. Even among pros I see a lot just focusing on one wing and sometimes getting caught (for eg Harimoto when he is in his quick BH pressure looping mode cant do a FH powerloop if the ball is returned fast to his FH).

 

[dingyibvs]

I was watching the LSD vs. LYJ game just now, with a focus on LSD's elbow positioning. I see that in general he keeps his elbow a bit in front of the body and backswing on the FH side is mostly by the body. Yesterday I noticed that I was often late on the FH side, I think attempting my usual FH with a full backswing is difficult unless I'm committed to a FH positioning.

Man, there's a lot more to developing a balanced two-wing game than just learning the BH strokes. I need to adjust my footwork, ready position, FH stroke, and all these things will need to tie in together. And that's in addition to all the other things I need to work on, like adjusting to varying pace, applying varying place, maintaining a higher stance (opposite issue from a lot of people!), more consistent body usage on both wings, etc. etc.

 

[blahness]

I was watching the LSD vs. LYJ game just now, with a focus on LSD's elbow positioning. I see that in general he keeps his elbow a bit in front of the body and backswing on the FH side is mostly by the body. Yesterday I noticed that I was often late on the FH side, I think attempting my usual FH with a full backswing is difficult unless I'm committed to a FH positioning.

Man, there's a lot more to developing a balanced two-wing game than just learning the BH strokes. I need to adjust my footwork, ready position, FH stroke, and all these things will need to tie in together. And that's in addition to all the other things I need to work on, like adjusting to varying pace, applying varying place, maintaining a higher stance (opposite issue from a lot of people!), more consistent body usage on both wings, etc. etc.

Yes, if you want to play aggressive BH game, you cant have a big FH. There is simply no time to introduce it when you are in BH position. Pretty much the entire backswing has to be almost body only. But apparently this is the most advanced game style now.

 

[blahness]

Played against an interesting player. Guy had tremendous spin on FH and BH but I had too much variation on the serve/receive so I was usually dominating serve/receive. But he then stopped serving too many varieties of spin and simply served very heavy pendulum sideunder to my really short FH. Damn that is quite the handcuffing serve. Couldnt do anything fancy against it, only pretty much push variations (short push, long push, heavy push/no spin push). Flicks were impossible and the placement was too extreme to do chiquita. Any early movements and he will serve it to my wide BH. I couldnt get out of it tbh. So basically any long push gets attacked with huge amounts of spin and i just wasn't blocking that consistently enough. Short push just invited a nasty af heavy long push to my middle which I had to really work for it to loop (which got me quite some points). The footwork from short FH receive to FH pivot is no joke, it is really challenging.

Basically I didnt have much answers to this serve pattern....

Edit i lost 2-3 in the end due to this tactic.

I guess I need to work on developing an even more solid block defence against higher spin quality shots, and short push + short push recovery footwork. Both are a little difficult as I need to find good quality players to train against.

 

[NextLevel]

I was watching the LSD vs. LYJ game just now, with a focus on LSD's elbow positioning. I see that in general he keeps his elbow a bit in front of the body and backswing on the FH side is mostly by the body. Yesterday I noticed that I was often late on the FH side, I think attempting my usual FH with a full backswing is difficult unless I'm committed to a FH positioning.

Man, there's a lot more to developing a balanced two-wing game than just learning the BH strokes. I need to adjust my footwork, ready position, FH stroke, and all these things will need to tie in together. And that's in addition to all the other things I need to work on, like adjusting to varying pace, applying varying place, maintaining a higher stance (opposite issue from a lot of people!), more consistent body usage on both wings, etc. etc.

The two winged game is not something you just do, it is something that requires a lot of game evolution. In fact, many people with two winged games have a forehand focused game or a backhand focused game as well, games they play stronger out of against certain opponents or receives but which you can only tell they are deploying if you are familiar with their serve and receive and stance patterns. But if you are, you can tell when they have shifted from two winged to forehand dominant or backhand dominant. If I serve backhand into backhand, it is a sign I am ready to play backhand to backhand because I suspect I can punish any ball into the forehand. But if I serve pendulum from backhand, it usually means I am playing forehand no matter what comes back unless you hit the extremely wide backhand. Most of my two winged play comes from backspin or no spin serves into the short forehand or middle of the table.

The biggest thing is elbow positioning if your forehand or backhand takes your elbow positioning relative to the core to a bad place closer to the table. Your chances of being two winged with topspin are virtually nil, you have to default to blocking on at least one side when surprised. If you can reduce the use of the upper arm close to the table, a lot of possibilities open up, you just have to find a playing distance where fast blocks don't challenge you too badly. Just loop to one position on the table and let the blocker block anywhere randomly (you can start with alternating random blocks and then fully random) or have multiball topspin where you are challenged to recover fast at random and it will come together if you have built the leg movements to support.

But a lot of it comes down to game speed, because you are a two winged player, it is just that as the opponents you need to beat get faster, suboptimal solutions work less and less. Your advantage is that you have strength so you should be able to get good quality on both sides with decent technique, and that is what should give you an edge, most people can develop the technique but won't have the quality. And then some of it will come down to you appreciating that quality because most people get seduced too much by their top end and then leave the two winged behind because of their top end not realizing that two winged is not about using your special weapons, but about making you harder to beat when your special weapons aren't able to win the point on demand e.g. a good player you can't beat playing only forehands or a match at the end of the day when you are gassed but need to play well in the final against an equal level opponent but can't generate your special weapon forehands as easily.

As an aside, full backswings are usually wrong on fast rallies close to the table, as you practice more, the backswing on forehand should be largely body driven and the size of the arm usage should be determined by the time you have and the speed and quality of the incoming ball. But close to the table it usually just means a short whippy use of the forearm at best. Practice kick blocking or countering close to the table with no arm backswing. It can work further from the table as well with a shorter backswing and a larger follow through, the backswing doesn't have to be large to produce a quality ball.

 

[NextLevel]

So on Sunday, Minor League TT begins in Allen, TX.

We will see whether it is possible to start a culture of minor leagues associated with Major LTT in the USA. This league will be full and popping and streaming as well. Let's go! And if you see a guy with a large boot on right foot doing something, whatever he is doing, it is likely me lol.

 

[OvrChkn]

2-2 today in tournament. Tried to see where I was at with my developing loops, but still have a ways to go. Technique is still in transition and dealing with tournament nerves. My blocking and placement won me the last two games. Really don't want to be going into rallies, so I'm working on ways to slow down and open the opponent up for my loops.

Watched a few 2500+ players today and they really know how to control the game. It was both slow and fast and really felt like watching art in real time. Definitely inspired by it.

 

[NextLevel]

2-2 today in tournament. Tried to see where I was at with my developing loops, but still have a ways to go. Technique is still in transition and dealing with tournament nerves. My blocking and placement won me the last two games. Really don't want to be going into rallies, so I'm working on ways to slow down and open the opponent up for my loops.

Watched a few 2500+ players today and they really know how to control the game. It was both slow and fast and really felt like watching art in real time. Definitely inspired by it.

Yeah, but don't underestimate the practice and the ease of misunderstanding the evolution that created it.

Having ways to go with developing spin is entirely normal, a lot it happens at critical mass and then a switch gets flipped. Below that threshold, everyone is smashing your spin. Then above that threshold, people need to approach you correctly repeatedly to keep your ball on the table. And then you can create less spin but use spin for consistency on fast drives, or you can use spin to remain consistent with good placement on rallies or you can spin the ball slowly and use the rotation to bother opponents who are not used to playing at a slower pace and countering spin effectively.

 

[OvrChkn]

Yeah, but don't underestimate the practice and the ease of misunderstanding the evolution that created it.

Having ways to go with developing spin is entirely normal, a lot it happens at critical mass and then a switch gets flipped. Below that threshold, everyone is smashing your spin. Then above that threshold, people need to approach you correctly repeatedly to keep your ball on the table. And then you can create less spin but use spin for consistency on fast drives, or you can use spin to remain consistent with good placement on rallies or you can spin the ball slowly and use the rotation to bother opponents who are not used to playing at a slower pace and countering spin effectively.

I wish I could handle the adrenaline rush I get during tournaments. Makes me too tense and my shots go very long cause I'm not using my body/right arm mechanics when I'm in that state. It felt more natural when my body calmed down. Over anticipating how I think the shot will go definitely causes me to miss more often than not.

 

[NextLevel]

I wish I could handle the adrenaline rush I get during tournaments. Makes me too tense and my shots go very long cause I'm not using my body/right arm mechanics when I'm in that state. It felt more natural when my body calmed down. Over anticipating how I think the shot will go definitely causes me to miss more often than not.

It's a combination of practice and mindfulness and getting to a point where the result doesn't interfere too seriously with the abilities you have built in practice. But the game has a complexity that is mental and hard to appreciate without experiencing a lot of it. Learning to spin and remain consistent against all types of balls is the shortest path to being calm as long as one realizes it doesn't guarantee that you will win but it guarantees that as long as you don't feel too rushed, you have significant control.

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

I wish I could handle the adrenaline rush I get during tournaments. Makes me too tense and my shots go very long cause I'm not using my body/right arm mechanics when I'm in that state. It felt more natural when my body calmed down. Over anticipating how I think the shot will go definitely causes me to miss more often than not.

Same struggle for me:

This is how I dealt with it:

1. Actually warm up and get your body going at least 20-30 Minutes before your first match.
Not Just drives on the table.
Get your Heart rate to the level where it will be at in the match - for me it's around 150-175 bpm if it's really intense and requires my full focus.

2. Then, have at least around 5 minute cool down sometime before the first match - for me it's getting down to 110-120 bpm.


3. Gather confidence in practice and early in the match.
If it's 3rd Ball Forehand Loops, do that.
If it's backhand looping rallies, do that.
You don't need to hit them all, but have the confidence and trust in yourself to do it reasonably well in the "heightened" state that you'll be in, in the match.
Something that you can rely on in the match, and don't need to "fix" once you're in the match.
Minor adjustments are obviously fine and sometimes necessary, but nothing big.
The more things you want to have confidence in, the more you should practice them before / test them early in the match, but it's not always a requirement.


For me: If I'm confident in my serves + 3rd Ball attacks, it's often enough to beat my opponents at our current level.
I adjust to my opponent and the game, but ideally I don't have many thoughts "inwards".
My focus is on the match and how to win.
The rest often follows.


4. You can't deny the adrenalin / cortisol from happening, only minimally, so try your best to control yourself under it's influence, don't have any "expectations" that you have to meet,
don't hesitate - "He who hesitates is lost."


5. Some controlled breathing with longer exhales than inhales helps, but again, it won't deny or get rid of the adrenalin / cortisol, but it helps.

Hope it helps, I'm open for Questions.