Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Shuki]

Been absent on the forum a few days.

Watched arch's videos and I thought he would have improved quite a bit more than he has. First one I can't see a ball until halfway through and I realize he's actually playing someone. Arch, I thought you were doing some weird shadow practice and just failing at it terribly.

Second video I can see what's going on a lot better although I'm still disappointed with how your game has evolved. The way I would describe the biggest problems that I'm seeing would be as followed. You're too focused on form. Trying to stay relaxed pretty well but your strokes aren't dynamic because of this. You often react and change your paddle's angle at the last second instead of doing a full stroke, and when you do this, you're just poking at the ball. This will only work on low-level players or players that you're extremely comfortable with. Your footwork isn't lazy, it looks like you're doing things kind of right there, but it seems like you're just going to the wrong places with your feet and with weird timing. Like you aren't anticipating the ball right or don't have enough experience to understand where to stand at given times with your style.

I think that you're just getting too comfortable with your opponents and you THINK you've improved a lot more than you have because you're so comfortable hitting all their balls.

I also believe you have more knowledge about the game than your playing level indicates and you're a pretty smart guy. Not all your posts should just be dismissed because your playing level is low. Often, I feel everyone is dismissing all your arguments because of that reason. They pick out a few words of your post that are wrong and dismiss the entire post because of that.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

"Form is not important. You do you."

Shuki's absence from the forum must've helped his game, he doesn't need his tips anymore as evidenced his new signature

 

[Archosaurus]

Been absent on the forum a few days.

Watched arch's videos and I thought he would have improved quite a bit more than he has. First one I can't see a ball until halfway through and I realize he's actually playing someone. Arch, I thought you were doing some weird shadow practice and just failing at it terribly.

Second video I can see what's going on a lot better although I'm still disappointed with how your game has evolved. The way I would describe the biggest problems that I'm seeing would be as followed. You're too focused on form. Trying to stay relaxed pretty well but your strokes aren't dynamic because of this. You often react and change your paddle's angle at the last second instead of doing a full stroke, and when you do this, you're just poking at the ball. This will only work on low-level players or players that you're extremely comfortable with. Your footwork isn't lazy, it looks like you're doing things kind of right there, but it seems like you're just going to the wrong places with your feet and with weird timing. Like you aren't anticipating the ball right or don't have enough experience to understand where to stand at given times with your style.

I think that you're just getting too comfortable with your opponents and you THINK you've improved a lot more than you have because you're so comfortable hitting all their balls.

I also believe you have more knowledge about the game than your playing level indicates and you're a pretty smart guy. Not all your posts should just be dismissed because your playing level is low. Often, I feel everyone is dismissing all your arguments because of that reason. They pick out a few words of your post that are wrong and dismiss the entire post because of that.

I think you outlined the important things. At least I am working on them now.

I am quite tense really. I CAN be more relaxed but it's difficult. I think I have a fear of the paddle flying out of my hand or something, but I'm slowly getting over it. It's new, so it won't feel right until some time. I'm slowly starting to understand what a good stroke feels like, but it doesn't mean I can always execute them.

Part of it is because I actually hit my forehand very differently from when I drill or do shadows/self hitting: it's like I don't "know" what to do so I just do whatever. However if I move even just a little bit better and try not to reach for the ball, it feels better because it's more familiar. Carl's points about my movements were very good and I'm trying things out.

I think you noticed but I took still frames of myself, and I saw my arm moves WAY earlier than my legs. That really hammered the nail in. I'm trying to move more into position with my legs, because I have some kind of idea where I should be: for some time now I've caught myself thinking "Why did you not move, you should be able to and you know this is not okay."
However if I move my hand first, there is no way I can make it even if I know where I need to be.


I'm curious though, why do you think my level had improved noticeably? I have improved, but not that much.

Shuki, I don't know much at all about the game. Knowing that I need to move my legs first, but not actually moving my legs first, doesn't have any value. If I don't "know" how to do it with my body, what good is it? I think it's pretty controversial to say that I have more knowledge than my playing level indicates.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

This saying has helped me throughout my life:

"The Fool speaks; the Wise Man listens."

I'm not calling anyone a Fool, and I'm not calling myself a Wise Man just noting that One can get far in Life by Listening.

After Listening, this Bruce Lee quote helps me a lot:

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own."

 

[Archosaurus]

This saying has helped me throughout my life:

"The Fool speaks; the Wise Man listens."

I'm not calling anyone a Fool, and I'm not calling myself a Wise Man just noting that One can get far in Life by Listening.

After Listening, this Bruce Lee quote helps me a lot:

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own."

I have a copy of "The Tao of Gung Fu" next to me on my shelf.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I have a copy of "The Tao of Gung Fu" next to me on my shelf.

That is a good book to see the beginning of Bruce Lee's evolution... better book is "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" ... although ToJKD was a collection of his personal notes published after his death ... it shows his thinking process and continued evolution. One of the books in the official "Bruce Lee Library" series is "Jeet Kune Do: Commentaries on the Martial Way" ... this book is similar to ToJKD, but Bruce Lee historian, John Little, organized BL's personal notes much better with additional material and it is a better presentation of BL's thoughts/notes and one can learn from it better than from ToJKD.

FTR, there is also a revised ToJKD with additional material, mostly essays contributed by his students.

For any interested in BL or the martial arts, I highly reco these books for one's MA library.

Sorry for non-TT chit chat!

 

[Archosaurus]

That is a good book to see the beginning of Bruce Lee's evolution... better book is "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" ... although ToJKD was a collection of his personal notes published after his death ... it shows his thinking process and continued evolution. One of the books in the official "Bruce Lee Library" series is "Jeet Kune Do: Commentaries on the Martial Way" ... this book is similar to ToJKD, but Bruce Lee historian, John Little, organized BL's personal notes much better with additional material and it is a better presentation of BL's thoughts/notes and one can learn from it better than from ToJKD.

FTR, there is also a revised ToJKD with additional material, mostly essays contributed by his students.

For any interested in BL or the martial arts, I highly reco these books for one's MA library.

Sorry for non-TT chit chat!

I'd read Tao of JKD a year or so ago, maybe more, but I never got around to reading more of his stuff except The Art of Expressing the Human Body.

I should probably get around to reading the other JKD book.


Funny thing is, my straight punch is actually solid. However I hadn't punched anything in ages, so I've mostly forgot the principles and can't punch fast anymore without risking hurting myself. Re-learning some principles of muscle tension and speed has actually slightly helped my table tennis!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Relaxation, easy to advise, hard to do ... relaxation helps not just table tennis, but probably helps in all aspects of life.

If you punch objects, DON'T DO WHAT I DID - punch with an unprotected hand! I was a foolhardy youth, i punched walls, mailboxes, telephone poles, elevators, doors, etc with a bare fist. Even Mike Tyson, former Heayweight Champion of the world, broke his unprotected hand in a much publicized street fight.

 

[NextLevel]

I also believe you have more knowledge about the game than your playing level indicates and you're a pretty smart guy. Not all your posts should just be dismissed because your playing level is low. Often, I feel everyone is dismissing all your arguments because of that reason. They pick out a few words of your post that are wrong and dismiss the entire post because of that.

This is a different version of the same problem. Is table tennis knowledge about practical results, ability to teach, level of play , ability to write about etc.

First of all, anyone can intellectually understand and repeat words if they have the requisite linguistic skills. The problem is whether this is really knowledge or not.

Suppose you wanted to improve vs short pips. I could tell you to open your racket more than you do if you play inverted. But this simplistic advice will not protect you if the pips user can generate more spin than the inverted users you play do. In the end, the path to understanding is largely to play pips players much more until your brain gets a better idea of what is happening to the ball. Do this while playing inverted so the brain adjusts rapidly.

Do you have knowledge of how to play pips players before or after you start playing them well? Depends on how you define knowledge. As someone who is a decent wordsmith, I can tell you that words are cheap. The real value is in practical effectiveness. If you have ever seriously coached someone to a decent level you will see all the challenges of trying to get them to play better.

You may think someone knows more because of what they write. But the truth is that some of that stuff might just be parroting better players. Some of that stuff might just be stealing ideas dishonestly without attribution. And none of it means that they have an idea of how to make you play better unless they have even displayed the ability to do so with others.

If writing about TT above your level is what makes you know TT, there are lots of forum members who don't write who know much more than Archo. They are just humble enough to realize that being able to write about something doesn't mean you understand it or that you can make someone better.

I would post much much less on technique if I wasn't lucky enough to work with Brett. Trust me, it is night and day when it comes to what I thought I understood vs what I really do. And even working with him in person showed me that the pit is bottomless when it comes to TT knowledge so I just mostly base my usefulness on how much I can help. I generally do not advise or consult players over 2000. The only exception is when they have a clearly inferior technique on a stroke I am proficient at. That is my way of respecting their effectiveness and knowledge. If I break 2100 or I coach a player past 2100 then this may change.

When you are young, you value logic. When you are older, you value experience.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Sir,

Thank you for that deep, deep post!

 

[Archosaurus]

Relaxation, easy to advise, hard to do ... relaxation helps not just table tennis, but probably helps in all aspects of life.

If you punch objects, DON'T DO WHAT I DID - punch with an unprotected hand! I was a foolhardy youth, i punched walls, mailboxes, telephone poles, elevators, doors, etc with a bare fist. Even Mike Tyson, former Heayweight Champion of the world, broke his unprotected hand in a much publicized street fight.

I've punched solid things too, but I'm generally against it. If you ever need to punch an armored opponent's armor, you're in the wrong fight!


I think I'm just naturally tense, or I have some kind of issue. Either way, everyday I work towards keeping my shoulders more down and my body more relaxed in general. Sometimes I find myself tensing out for no reason. Table tennis has actually helped with that because relaxation is so key: it bleeds into your normal life.

 

[laistrogian]

This is a different version of the same problem. Is table tennis knowledge about practical results, ability to teach, level of play , ability to write about etc.

First of all, anyone can intellectually understand and repeat words if they have the requisite linguistic skills. The problem is whether this is really knowledge or not.

Suppose you wanted to improve vs short pips. I could tell you to open your racket more than you do if you play inverted. But this simplistic advice will not protect you if the pips user can generate more spin than the inverted users you play do. In the end, the path to understanding is largely to play pips players much more until your brain gets a better idea of what is happening to the ball. Do this while playing inverted so the brain adjusts rapidly.

Do you have knowledge of how to play pips players before or after you start playing them well? Depends on how you define knowledge. As someone who is a decent wordsmith, I can tell you that words are cheap. The real value is in practical effectiveness. If you have ever seriously coached someone to a decent level you will see all the challenges of trying to get them to play better.

You may think someone knows more because of what they write. But the truth is that some of that stuff might just be parroting better players. Some of that stuff might just be stealing ideas dishonestly without attribution. And none of it means that they have an idea of how to make you play better unless they have even displayed the ability to do so with others.

If writing about TT above your level is what makes you know TT, there are lots of forum members who don't write who know much more than Archo. They are just humble enough to realize that being able to write about something doesn't mean you understand it or that you can make someone better.

I would post much much less on technique if I wasn't lucky enough to work with Brett. Trust me, it is night and day when it comes to what I thought I understood vs what I really do. And even working with him in person showed me that the pit is bottomless when it comes to TT knowledge so I just mostly base my usefulness on how much I can help. I generally do not advise or consult players over 2000. The only exception is when they have a clearly inferior technique on a stroke I am proficient at. That is my way of respecting their effectiveness and knowledge. If I break 2100 or I coach a player past 2100 then this may change.

When you are young, you value logic. When you are older, you value experience.

I find the theory of table tennis to be extemely difficult and deep but once you master how to do it in practice, it becomes really simple since it becomes a part of your reflex.

Personally, I just sneer everytime archo tries to say smart things about players who are far better than him and that's generally the case when you have a player rated lower than 2000 trying to coach another player with higher rating, you cant even completely comprehend the ball

 

[Archosaurus]

Wouldn't a 2000 USATT player giving advice to a 2200 player be even more ridiculous than a 1800 player giving advice to a 2000 player?

Or are the fundamentals at around 2000 USATT considered to be solid enough to be applicable to higher level play?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I know I am CAPABLE of moving there because I had practiced it with self hitting, when I would throw the ball, move to it, then hit it.

Archo, you are a strange deluded character. Comparing footwork on self hit remedial exercises with actual footwork is kind of like talking about running technique when you are paralyzed from the waist down and in a wheel chair. Stop being a fool.

There is a reason why you are getting comments from people like baumschule or NextLevel or ttmonster explaining why they ignore you.

And NextLevel has a real point about your level of dishonesty.

I will post this video again:

The first few swings are not strokes. They are pushing forward from behind the ball. After that is a stroke. Figure out the difference.

Shadow strokes or self hitting will never teach you how to track the ball in real play because in real play the ball is actually hit from a different person. And the idea of tossing the ball to try and trick yourself with placement when you yourself are tossing is totally laughable. Stop acting the idiot and trolling. There is no such thing as footwork when you self hit even if you move your feet. That is like calling masturbation "sex": it just isn't.

Part of what real footwork is is being reset after you hit the ball and before your opponent hits the ball so that you are reset and ready to move BEFORE the opponent hits, so you can watch the racket angle and see what is on the ball and where the opponent is hitting the ball. So you can move to the next spot as the ball is coming off the racket. YOU DON'T even have a reset so you can't actually have footwork. And you are not going to change this on your own or through theory. It takes the practice of having someone feed you the ball and move you around so that you have to move to each ball and then they increase the difficulty as you improve.

I don't think NextLevel dislikes you. He dislikes that you are dishonest and that you are a troll who winds people up and gets them arguing; Who hijacks threads to turn them into an argument about Archosaurus and not what the original thread was about. The question then becomes, are you like kukamonga/Sebas_Aguirre, Agent Hex or countless others who knew they were being trolls and were doing it on purpose; or are you like PNut who had no control over himself and couldn't help doing it because of a frontal lobe problem; or are you just completely oblivious and that much of a narcissist?

To me it doesn't matter.

Just go find a club and a coach. You can't teach yourself TT without in person help from someone who actually knows how to help you improve. Which is why the level in your most recent video is so similar to what it was 6 months ago. You cannot see yourself from outside yourself. And to improve in TT you need to do that. Video can help a small amount. But not when you have someone who is delusional and thinks his level is comparable to someone whose stroke is excellent and can loop 20-30 balls in a row solidly. Let's just be real here.

I've got nothing against you Archo. I am just calling things how I see them. I can't tell you how many people have PM'd me hoping you would stop trolling. The ones who have only said it in silence, I will not mention. But there have been more than I can count on my hands. And that is kind of too much.

Your a smart kid. And I don't want to discourage you. But please stop the trolling.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[Archosaurus]

Carl, you're looking way too much into what I said. I simply stated that my body can perform the needed action. Nowhere did I imply that I have good footwork, or that I can do any of it in real time proficiently against a moving ball.

I know that my legs don't place themselves correctly at all: but I know that it's not impossible that I could learn it. However, it's probably practically impossible without a good coach and training because there's more to it too. I'm starting to figure that out.

Again, thank you for the post. Insights like that are very good. They open my mind a bit: I think I'm way too narrow minded on this subject.




I really want to know why those people didn't PM me directly. I'd be interested to hear their thoughts, however vulgar or abusive they might be. If they want you to ban me, you can go ahead if you feel fit. However if they're just complaining, I'd really have appreciated it if they came to me directly: maybe I'd learn something.

 

[Shuki]

"Form is not important. You do you."

Shuki's absence from the forum must've helped his game, he doesn't need his tips anymore as evidenced his new signature

haha, the tips in my signature weren't things I ever focused on anymore so I decided to change it to what I tell the noobies I train at our college club.

 

[Shuki]

I'm curious though, why do you think my level had improved noticeably? I have improved, but not that much.

Shuki, I don't know much at all about the game. Knowing that I need to move my legs first, but not actually moving my legs first, doesn't have any value. If I don't "know" how to do it with my body, what good is it? I think it's pretty controversial to say that I have more knowledge than my playing level indicates.

I said I thought you would have improved more. Not that you have improved more.

The movement into correct positions will come naturally with experience, your body will go to where it expects the ball to be.

 

[Archosaurus]

I said I thought you would have improved more. Not that you have improved more.

The movement into correct positions will come naturally with experience, your body will go to where it expects the ball to be.

Oops, brainfart. I guess "Why would you have thought" would have been better.


Interesting. Are you sure it's just experience and you won't hit a wall eventually without good coaching? You do need to remember that, if I've understood correctly, your coach is very good and you're being trained well. What might be natural to you might be completely impossible to someone without the same training.

 

[Shuki]

This is a different version of the same problem. Is table tennis knowledge about practical results, ability to teach, level of play , ability to write about etc.

First of all, anyone can intellectually understand and repeat words if they have the requisite linguistic skills. The problem is whether this is really knowledge or not.

Suppose you wanted to improve vs short pips. I could tell you to open your racket more than you do if you play inverted. But this simplistic advice will not protect you if the pips user can generate more spin than the inverted users you play do. In the end, the path to understanding is largely to play pips players much more until your brain gets a better idea of what is happening to the ball. Do this while playing inverted so the brain adjusts rapidly.

Do you have knowledge of how to play pips players before or after you start playing them well? Depends on how you define knowledge. As someone who is a decent wordsmith, I can tell you that words are cheap. The real value is in practical effectiveness. If you have ever seriously coached someone to a decent level you will see all the challenges of trying to get them to play better.

You may think someone knows more because of what they write. But the truth is that some of that stuff might just be parroting better players. Some of that stuff might just be stealing ideas dishonestly without attribution. And none of it means that they have an idea of how to make you play better unless they have even displayed the ability to do so with others.

If writing about TT above your level is what makes you know TT, there are lots of forum members who don't write who know much more than Archo. They are just humble enough to realize that being able to write about something doesn't mean you understand it or that you can make someone better.

I would post much much less on technique if I wasn't lucky enough to work with Brett. Trust me, it is night and day when it comes to what I thought I understood vs what I really do. And even working with him in person showed me that the pit is bottomless when it comes to TT knowledge so I just mostly base my usefulness on how much I can help. I generally do not advise or consult players over 2000. The only exception is when they have a clearly inferior technique on a stroke I am proficient at. That is my way of respecting their effectiveness and knowledge. If I break 2100 or I coach a player past 2100 then this may change.

When you are young, you value logic. When you are older, you value experience.

What you say is certainly true

I was trying to give him a compliment so not all his feedback would be negative. Just trying to boost his self-esteem in a time when it may feel like the majority of people were trying to bring him down. When I was saying the words "you" in my post I was doing so to make it clear that I was speaking to him and not to a group as a whole so people wouldn't be saying "no shuki that's wrong because of this." But I suppose it's quite dumb of me to do that in a public setting where we're supposed to debate different points of view to gain insight.

 

[Shuki]

Oops, brainfart. I guess "Why would you have thought" would have been better.


Interesting. Are you sure it's just experience and you won't hit a wall eventually without good coaching? You do need to remember that, if I've understood correctly, your coach is very good and you're being trained well. What might be natural to you might be completely impossible to someone without the same training.

the drills I do with my coach in no way represent how I play games and position my body in them. All my match experience is what's helped me with that. Learning when some players tend to hit near the end line to position my body further off the table, seeing how they are positioned and starting to move to the correct spot accordingly to counter their hit, all of this comes from experience with different players hitting.