Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

By all means archo, please post it I'm sure a lot of people are interested to see how good that serve is

You missed the point entirely.

Here, let me spell it out to you in a more clear way:

Let's say a very good player posts video of himself serving and asks "Help how do I improve my serve?".

He is serving very good sidespin pendulum.

He will get all kinds of advice on generating more spin, or keeping it lower or whatever, when really what he wants to know is how to generate the same kind of spin when serving side/back, for example.

However, if he just posts video and a simple statement with no explanation of his ability and his difficulties, no one will ever figure this out.

Do you understand now?







Now for a question for all the penholders and anti-penholder experts here:

What do you feel is a traditional penholder's biggest weakness?

 

[NDH]

Arch - I don't post a huge amount, but I try and read as much as I can.

I think your willing to improve and learn as much as you can about the game is admirable. If you lived in a different location, I'm sure you would be improving on a daily basis.

I think the biggest issue seems to be around the lack of video evidence and the "excuses" that you come up with regarding the lack of videos.

I have no doubt that you have studied Table Tennis, understand spin and how things "should" work - But Table Tennis isn't learnt from a text book, and I think it's unfair on people who want honest feedback, to receive advice from you based on what you "think" should happen, rather than experience (regardless of if your explanation is correct).

I'd be amazed if you didn't have access to any sort of 21st century camera..... Even more of the sketchy mobile phone footage would go a long way to establishing yourself as a valuable member of this forum, and not a potential "troll".

I'm not trying to offend, but simply offering my advice to someone who clearly loves the sport, and in my opinion, would be a continued valued member of the Table Tennis community.... If you backed up the extensive advice, with some honest footage.

 

[Archosaurus]

Arch - I don't post a huge amount, but I try and read as much as I can.

I think your willing to improve and learn as much as you can about the game is admirable. If you lived in a different location, I'm sure you would be improving on a daily basis.

I think the biggest issue seems to be around the lack of video evidence and the "excuses" that you come up with regarding the lack of videos.

I have no doubt that you have studied Table Tennis, understand spin and how things "should" work - But Table Tennis isn't learnt from a text book, and I think it's unfair on people who want honest feedback, to receive advice from you based on what you "think" should happen, rather than experience (regardless of if your explanation is correct).

I'd be amazed if you didn't have access to any sort of 21st century camera..... Even more of the sketchy mobile phone footage would go a long way to establishing yourself as a valuable member of this forum, and not a potential "troll".

I'm not trying to offend, but simply offering my advice to someone who clearly loves the sport, and in my opinion, would be a continued valued member of the Table Tennis community.... If you backed up the extensive advice, with some honest footage.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think I should not give any advice to anyone. There's always gonna be someone who knows better and is ready to do instead.

While I hate to just take and not give, there's not much else I can do given my level, so I will try to make the best of everyone's generosity and improve myself as much as I can. I keep improving everyday, little by little.
The more open my mind is, the faster my improvement, so for my own good, I better drop the shit. I can kind of understand what Carl meant when he said I have a good capability for learning if I open my mind and act with humility.


One thing I do not understand: what's not honest about my footage? I don't think my level is much higher, and definitely not much lower than what is shown. It's a bit disappointing and disheartening that people think I'm trying to hide my faults or something.

 

[NDH]

I don't think you are trying to hide your faults, and I may have missed some videos you've posted (I've only seen the one of you in jeans) - I didn't mean your footage wasn't honest, it was more of a saying than anything else.

Considering your input into this forum, the only thing holding you back is the video footage of yourself. You've been upfront about where you feel you are (from an ability point of view), and given your location, it will difficult to improve quickly, regardless of any advice you may receive.

I think the big sticking point for people is the sheer amount of advice you give, and differing opinion with others, when you haven't provided enough evidence of where your game is at.

This is certainly one of those times where people would MUCH rather give you good advice on the back of your videos day after day, rather than you feeling like you need to contribute to the forum with your own advice to others.

Don't feel bad for just taking advice from others, that's why the "old boys" on this forum post as much as they do - To help people who are as enthusiastic as you are, and who want to contribute and give back to the sport!

Don't give it too much thought, just get some video when you can (and some shorts.....)

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Now for a question for all the penholders and anti-penholder experts here:

What do you feel is a traditional penholder's biggest weakness?

WOW! an easy question I can answer!

Speaking as an oldschool penholder that plays with only 1 side, overall it's the lack of a backhand smash that is the biggest weakness. To compensate, the punch aka 'push-block' (an aggressive block) is used. If conditions are right, i either 3rd ball punch or 4th ball punch. The other way penholders compensate is to use footwork to hit the ball with their FH.

The modern PH style with the RPB was the solution to the oldschool penholder's weakness, started first with Liu Guo-liang I believe. Ma Lin furthered it, but Wang Hao seems to be the best ever with the RPB.

With all that said, some penholders have a decent to good BH smash. My first coach, Alex Tam, was noted for his backhand smashes. He played pips.

HTH.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't think you are trying to hide your faults, and I may have missed some videos you've posted (I've only seen the one of you in jeans) - I didn't mean your footage wasn't honest, it was more of a saying than anything else.

Considering your input into this forum, the only thing holding you back is the video footage of yourself. You've been upfront about where you feel you are (from an ability point of view), and given your location, it will difficult to improve quickly, regardless of any advice you may receive.

I think the big sticking point for people is the sheer amount of advice you give, and differing opinion with others, when you haven't provided enough evidence of where your game is at.

This is certainly one of those times where people would MUCH rather give you good advice on the back of your videos day after day, rather than you feeling like you need to contribute to the forum with your own advice to others.

Don't feel bad for just taking advice from others, that's why the "old boys" on this forum post as much as they do - To help people who are as enthusiastic as you are, and who want to contribute and give back to the sport!

Don't give it too much thought, just get some video when you can (and some shorts.....)

Archo doesn't realize that in the world of TT, no one does it alone. We all received help from different players during our TT growth, plenty of the most valuable help for free, some of it through paid coaching. The reward is seeing someone get better. TT is too small a sport for us to drive away enthusiastic people. Better players give you tips all the time when they see your game.

The people who don't get far are the ones who think they know how to do everything. It prevents them from listening to people who know stuff. Everyone knows stuff, the problem is that like Bruce Lee said, there is a lot of discarding you have to do before adding your own stuff. But you still need to listen to even get their stuff. IF you think you know everything, then the subtle stuff that people who have played at a higher level than you have and figured out through actually solving their problems is closed to you.

But it is dishonest to pretend you are playing at a higher level than you actually are or that you have done things that you haven't done. By now, Archo should have realized that he is not a credible evaluator of his own progress and he should defer all such things to people who play better reviewing video of his play. Part of the problem is youth, but I am not going to be the one to have to deal with it.

You even missed laistrogian's point - rather than talk about your sidespin pendulum serve, just post video of it and let others determine it is good or not. You will be surprised that whatever you think is good can still get better. You said you had a good loop, and we can see you do not. Maybe it is time to start sharing video and stop describing your play? Good luck.

 

[Archosaurus]

WOW! an easy question I can answer!

Speaking as an oldschool penholder that plays with only 1 side, overall it's the lack of a backhand smash that is the biggest weakness. To compensate, the punch aka 'push-block' (an aggressive block) is used. If conditions are right, i either 3rd ball punch or 4th ball punch. The other way penholders compensate is to use footwork to hit the ball with their FH.

The modern PH style with the RPB was the solution to the oldschool penholder's weakness, started first with Liu Guo-liang I believe. Ma Lin furthered it, but Wang Hao seems to be the best ever with the RPB.

With all that said, some penholders have a decent to good BH smash. My first coach, Alex Tam, was noted for his backhand smashes. He played pips.

HTH.

Hmm.

Do you feel that you have an easy time punching flips?

I play with a penholder who is like you describe: he either steps around to take a forehand or if it's not really a smashable ball, he will punch it HARD. I gain most points on my serve, and lose most on his serve because of this. He serves short and half long topspin high toss into my backhand and elbow. Sometimes a wide forehand fast serve, but I can deal with those.

We are about co-level, but my biggest problem is dealing with his punches. I know they should be weak shots relatively, but his speed and placement are good, and he doesn't actually telegraph exactly where it's gonna go, he can change direction sometimes.

I think my best bet is to improve my flip against his backhand or maybe actually play a push. Aside from just adapting to the shots and getting better in general. What do you think?

 

[JeffM]

Hmm.

I play with a penholder who is like you describe: he either steps around to take a forehand or if it's not really a smashable ball, he will punch it HARD. I gain most points on my serve, and lose most on his serve because of this. He serves short and half long topspin high toss into my backhand and elbow. Sometimes a wide forehand fast serve, but I can deal with those.

We are about co-level, but my biggest problem is dealing with his punches. I know they should be weak shots relatively, but his speed and placement are good, and he doesn't actually telegraph exactly where it's gonna go, he can change direction sometimes.

I think my best bet is to improve my flip against his backhand or maybe actually play a push. Aside from just adapting to the shots and getting better in general. What do you think?

Hey Archo, the punches generated by penholders that do not use RPB can be very fast, but often the ball will become flat afterwards, i.e. less spin remains on the ball after the punch. They are indeed hard to predict where they will land, as the direction will depend on how they angle their bat. I can't speak for shakehanders, but for me, usually I will play a topspin stroke to the ball, as it adds safety with the arching trajectory as oppose to trying to 'flip' his punches. You may also step back a little bit as you can afford to take the ball at a lower point if you do a loop.

 

[Archosaurus]

Hey Archo, the punches generated by penholders that do not use RPB can be very fast, but often the ball will become flat afterwards, i.e. less spin remains on the ball after the punch. They are indeed hard to predict where they will land, as the direction will depend on how they angle their bat. I can't speak for shakehanders, but for me, usually I will play a topspin stroke to the ball, as it adds safety with the arching trajectory as oppose to trying to 'flip' his punches. You may also step back a little bit as you can afford to take the ball at a lower point if you do a loop.

Let me re-iterate:

I flip his topspin SERVES. He then punches my flip. I will counter or block, or loop if I have time. However the punches are very difficult to deal with and I can't block them back so well because they're flat. I'm not good enough to always loop his punches closer to the table.

If I understood correctly, you're advising I step back, let the ball slow down because it doesn't have much topspin to propel it, and then really spin up the ball?

 

[NextLevel]

A wise coach once told me that strategy can destroy your focus on technical improvement and ultimately cap your level. By this, he meant that people who get away with things like pushing to weak backhands or forehands rather than improving their ability to open off backspin consistently or working on their strokes so that they have good technical loops will often stay behind the curve and struggle when the bad habits they have grooved with the strategic focus fail to work at higher levels.

It's the reason why the first thing I analyze when I look at your game is whether your strokes are largely correct and whether you are playing standard offensive table tennis at your current level of play. Whether you win or lose, those things will grow with you and you can always add on occasional strategic modifications. But looking at Archos strokes, anyone giving him a strategic focus is on the wrong path and will likely hurt his game more than help it.

Right now, I am coaching a beginners class and there is a guy who likes to sides wipe the ball. He says that this was how he started to beat people in college. Now I am struggling to get him to loop properly.

That's why I tell JeffM that he should clean up his strokes and tactics while he can. He is still young. There is nothing that prevents him from developing solid topspin strokes on both sides. He just needs to focus on spin instead of ball bashing.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Do you feel that you have an easy time punching flips?

I'm still getting used to the terminology after my ~30 years out of the game. By 'flip' i think that's the same as 'flick' or ages ago the term i learned it as, 'pick' ... if so, most if not all flips have no downspin... if the flip is not too close the the net and/or very low, i can generally punch it where i want to.

0:00 - 0:03 - after a rocket serve, i punched to J's FH.
0:05 - 0:09 - I see J lean to his FH (we were drilling my rocket serve and punch to his FH), my subconscious brain/muscle memory overrode my conscious brain and punched it to his BH

0:42 - 0:46 - camera facing me, you can see my 3rd ball punch to J's FH after the rocket serve.

With all that said, I'm at a certain level with my punches... i generally cannot punch downspin balls. At my old club, I've played another oldschool penholder and he can punch downspin balls. It's a matter of blade angle and I can't get it consistently yet, so for my current game, i play the safer 'push' back.

Joke Interlude:

Patient: *raises elbow* "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
Doctor: "Then don't do that."

My advice is to not give him punchable balls. Learn serve receive (says the 500 serve receiver, i'm da suck at serve receive). There's something in his brain/game telling him to step around to return your serve with his FH instead of punching. If his punches are giving you that much challenges, how are you returning those serves that makes him step around?

What kind of serves or 2nd balls are you giving him to punch?

Can he punch downspin? IMO, that's a higher level skill. If he cannot then, learn to 'push' (add downspin) back his serves. Or learn to place the ball short in his FH or middle of the table. Or learn to read topspin ... etc.

my biggest problem is dealing with his punches. I know they should be weak shots relatively, but his speed and placement are good, and he doesn't actually telegraph exactly where it's gonna go, he can change direction sometimes.

Not sure of your partner, but in the video posted above, my punches are not weak IMO. You can see I can change direction also.

You mention your partner punches HARD, but then you say you know punches are weak shots relatively. Deal with Reality and not Fantasy. Accept he punches hard and deal with it accordingly. Don't Deny what is happening even if it doesn't fit in with your Knowledge.

After having said all that, even a weak punch (or any weak shot) is 'strong' if the placement is correct. Generally place the ball where your partner is not ... sometimes you will see magic happen!

I think my best bet is to improve my flip against his backhand or maybe actually play a push. Aside from just adapting to the shots and getting better in general. What do you think?

My advice is to try everything and anything when your shots/returns doesn't work. You have to find what works within your toolbox/arsenal.

Truly HTH. Good luck in your Training!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

A wise coach once told me that strategy can destroy your focus on technical improvement and ultimately cap your level. By this, he meant that people who get away with things like pushing to weak backhands or forehands rather than improving their ability to open off backspin consistently or working on their strokes so that they have good technical loops will often stay behind the curve and struggle when the bad habits they have grooved with the strategic focus fail to work at higher levels.

...

That's why I tell JeffM that he should clean up his strokes and tactics while he can. He is still young. There is nothing that prevents him from developing solid topspin strokes on both sides. He just needs to focus on spin instead of ball bashing.

Ah sage advice! I see that advised Strategy instead.

Thank you.

 

[JeffM]

Nice 3rd ball attacks and pushes OSP!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Nice 3rd ball attacks and pushes OSP!

Thank you JeffM!

LOL at me -- i cannot do it consistently yet ... i've included my 'losers' ... too easy to stroke my Ego and only post the 'winners', but the Reality is i'm 50/50 or 40/60... need to be much more consistent.

 

[Archosaurus]

NL, this is a short term concern of mine. What I am doing to play him seems dumb and counter-intuitive.

However I'm sure that once my game improves, and I can start doing full swings more often and moving to the ball more often, I won't have the problems I have now. Somehow I have that feeling: because I feel like I'm mostly technically limited, not strategically. I am 100% sure that if my backhand flick/flip was better, and I could get a real loop in on all his shots that aren't stellar, I would have no problems at all. Even at my current max shot quality.

In other words, if I was better, I'd not be asking this. I would have no problem with his shots.


However penholders are new to me. So I am interested, maybe I can do better in the short term with a better strategy.


I agree 100% that it's a bad idea to focus on strategy in my position, because there is a point where better players will just beat you simply because their game standard is much higher. No matter what ideal strategy you do, your game will not support it. Is this right?

@OldSchoolPenholder

Yes, I am talking about the flick.

I win most my points on my serve. He cannot punch my serve: at least not over the net or on the table. He can't step around either and hit it hard. He plays it short or safe. Unless of course I screw up my serve: but that's another thing.

Generally I will try to loop his serve or flick it. He can punch those, or block them unless I really place it well which is very risky. We are about even by the time he gets his 3rd ball in, but his punches and eventual forehand finisher put pressure on me.

I have tried to counter his game by playing a backspin game, with pushes and redirecting his punches. Sometimes I will place it short on the table, or very long on the endline, or push it pretty flat very deep. This is mostly hit and miss: I am not totally comfortable playing like this.

I was 10-8 and I actually just "backspin punched" back his topspin serve and he netted it with his forehand because it was a surprise.


Now that I think about this, NL has a great point. I am already about the same level of performance with him: win some lose some mostly even. We have mutual respect and it's fun.

I think maybe if I just do what I am doing now, but do it technically better with more confidence and "pop", I will improve better than trying to play an alternative strategy.

 

[NextLevel]

Archo,

I unintentionally skimmed your last post. I have already told you what to do - post regular video of your serve practice. Open a new thread to do it. What you will gain from that will help you with all your strokes. When you do that and post video, I will take you off the ignore list.

There are players who I used to strategically beat when I was 1500 who can't return my loop now that I am 2000. But I struggled to loop back then so it was no mysterious that I was struggling with them. Get your game on a realistic path to improvement. It is hard to teach technique remotely but I have had modest success doing it. I think at this point, you have to put up.

I will let you continue to ask for and seek advice as I had promised not to interrupt though I saw all my friends quoting your posts and felt that irresistible urge to day something.

Your videos show what you can't loop or serve. Fix those things. Post video so that people can help you loop and serve, especially the latter as if you can serve with spin, your understanding of stroke technique rapidly changes.

 

[Archosaurus]

Sure thing, NL.

You can say whatever you feel is necessary. I didn't actually strongly consider that maybe there is no alternative short term strategy.
Knowing that I can play equally with him actually lets this make sense now because we are both already maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses to the best of our ability and that's why it's so tight. Just gotta raise the ability.

I played today because my shoulder was feeling better, but I couldn't serve any proper pendulum. Hence no serve video. I think I will let it rest over the weekend before I start doing a lot of movements that could cause any kind of discomfort.

 

[Boogar]

Hey Archo, the punches generated by penholders that do not use RPB can be very fast, but often the ball will become flat afterwards, i.e. less spin remains on the ball after the punch. They are indeed hard to predict where they will land, as the direction will depend on how they angle their bat. I can't speak for shakehanders, but for me, usually I will play a topspin stroke to the ball, as it adds safety with the arching trajectory as oppose to trying to 'flip' his punches. You may also step back a little bit as you can afford to take the ball at a lower point if you do a loop.

As my trainings partner is a penholder I might have some helpful insights on that theme.
I made similar experiences as JeffM. When I loop into his backhand and he punches it the ball loses spin and its hard to see where its going, as the punch is very deceptive. Because of that i tend to net the returning balls quiet a lot.
Thats also the reason why we call his punches short pip punches, even tho he plays inverted

The solution I found is to either step back and give you more time to do the right shot. Or to open up the angle of your racket for kind a counter punch of mine.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Last night's AAR - no video

Nexy Amazon CPen + MX-P - Day 4 Thoughts

Having not been playing in 30 yrs, I've not kept up with the technology/equipment. Was never a EJ to begin with. My 4th day at using Nexy's Amazon CPen with MX-P rubber.

Der, Carl, PingPongHolic and 3 clubmates advised that I should put on a backsheet because the Amazon is too light. I'm an oldschool penholder and used to the weight of a single sheet.

One clubmate also mentioned that I may damage the blade with repeated play from the smashes/blocks. He said something to the effect that the vibration will loosen the carbon and we can't see what's happening inside the blade. The extra rubber will preserve the blade as well as minimize the vibration.

With that in mind, i added a used DHS H3, the one i've been using on my Avalox P700. Last night was the 2nd night of playing with this setup of MX-P on front. Previous night, I couldn't hit a basic FH nor smash and loop due to the unaccustomed added weight. BH blocking was fine and punching was good but not perfect.

1) Last night, played a set with a gentleman i lose to so far - i'm around his level, but his illegal serves are very spinny which i eat most of the time. I don't call him out on them as he's just a club player. While warming up, i was spastic with my FH, still not quite used to the weight. I closed the blade a tad more than usual and the ball landed consistently enough. Perhaps the switchover from H3 to MX-P affected my FH a little... perhaps the added weight affected my stroke. Unclear for now. The MX-P i thought would be way more bouncier than the H3, but the first night I used the Amazon with the MX-P with no backsheet, i was surprised at how very little adjustment i had to make, it played just like my Avalox/H3 setup.

So instead of forcing my FH, i resorted to BH blocking to warm up.I was using the Amazon with 2 sheets of rubber, but using one-sided only. My grip is more of a loose curled fingers grip on the back. The added weight eventually made my grip/hand weaken.

During the match, i lost 3 straight, mostly at -6. Got some smashes and some loops in, but mostly i missed. Still getting use to the weight.

2) Not feeling 100%, not sure if it's the seasonal change going to Fall and cooler temperatures or playing 5 days straight and not resting properly or whatever. Just not feeling it.

Hit with J... i blocked for a few minutes, really feeling the weight of the racket now... grip really started to discomfort me.

Went with serve practice instead. Mostly tried to get the short downspin serve without my normal long/wide pendulum motion. not sure if it's a new motion i'm trying to groove or if it's the weight or both...

got in ~30 mins or so and called it quits for the night.

QUESTIONS

1) Does playing without a 2nd rubber affect the wood/carbon adversely?

2) Playing without a 2nd rubber produces a lot of vibration, which I will get used to in time. Without the 2nd rubber, I felt like I've been playing with the Amazon/MX-P forever, meaning, i play well with it.

3) I probably won't be embracing the RPB any time soon (sorry JeffM!), still trying to get my oldschool game consistent. If I absolutely need to put on a 2nd rubber mostly for weight and/or preserving the blade, any reco's for a lesser weighted rubber than the H3 with an eye at eventually trying the RPB, but just not anytime soon?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Archosaurus]

@OSPH

I remember when I first got my current setup, and it felt really heavy compared to what I'd been using. Holding it in the penhold grip was nigh-impossible without a lot of discomfort.


Now several months later, the bat feels very light, shakehand or penhold. I don't get the same discomfort I got when holding it in the penhold grip, it's actually very comfortable. I don't even play penhold.


What I'm trying to say is, if you take it nice and easy and adjust to it, the discomfort and inconsistency from more weight might start going away over some months. Your wrist and forearm gets stronger; your brain gets more used to the feeling.