Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Der_Echte]

So I’m struggling with a tendency I have on BH cross table topspin shots where I tend to come across the ball a little too much, meaning my placement is mostly mid table (BH side) and I can’t consistently find the wide BH. I’m almost fading the ball if that makes sense.

It also manifests on BH drive while warming up.

I know, logically, it’s a tendency to move across the ball (left to right) without enough forward motion - but I’m struggling to find a fix.

Anybody struggled with this?

Hi Wrighty,

Pop a quick vid here or on vid safe thread.

I have an idea or two what you are doing to result in this, but I would like to see your shot in action before I say anything.

I would want to say it is how you are setting the strike zone/leverage (stance and arm/elbow position) and your timing/biomechanics on your shot... but I wanna see your shot in action before I open my mouth any further.

It sounds like you are not getting elbow in front enough, or are prepping the bat way too far back, but I gotta see it before I can say much that will make sense right now.

 

[dingyibvs]

Wait till you try D05 on Viscaria - this BH combination is a real bomb lol especially with the sudden directional changes with almost no telegraphing.

I think T05 kinda sucks (I never liked it) and D05 is flat out superior to it.

I tried the Viscaria with D09c setup at the club today for a bit. While in training the adjustment is fairly minor, it's a huge difference playing against people lol. My BH shots were going off the table all the time, while my FH shots were hitting the net all the time. Since I'm focused on developing the basics, I'm gonna stick to my current setup for now. You can learn the basics with any setup. In the future I might pick up the Viscaria. I have 2 more weeks to achieve my goals for my BH, and I'm getting pretty close. I'm itching to start working on my FH again, it's been almost a year now since I last worked on it and it's really starting to show lol.

Today at the club my BH shots were getting a lot better. Still has trouble with service receives though. Against long serves I just don't have enough control to put it anywhere I want unlike my FH side. I think I'm gonna practice specifically against services. On the FH side I kinda just treated them like regular backspin, topspin, or no spin balls, and just aim a little differently to compensate for the sidespin. I'm not sure why I couldn't do that on the BH side even though I had my partner specifically serve me long balls (though random spins).

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty,

Pop a quick vid here or on vid safe thread.

I have an idea or two what you are doing to result in this, but I would like to see your shot in action before I say anything.

I would want to say it is how you are setting the strike zone/leverage (stance and arm/elbow position) and your timing/biomechanics on your shot... but I wanna see your shot in action before I open my mouth any further.

It sounds like you are not getting elbow in front enough, or are prepping the bat way too far back, but I gotta see it before I can say much that will make sense right now.

Thanks Der - I will sort that out.

In the meantime, my instinct is that you are correct - it feels to me that I am starting too low on backswing and then struggling to get over top left of the ball (almost hitting a topspin like I would a loop vs backspin)

The challenge for me when I spent a few hours practicing last night, was I seemed unable to correct it by focusing on left top of ball - I was still placing the shot mid BH side which was very frustrating..

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty,

Pop a quick vid here or on vid safe thread.

I have an idea or two what you are doing to result in this, but I would like to see your shot in action before I say anything.

I would want to say it is how you are setting the strike zone/leverage (stance and arm/elbow position) and your timing/biomechanics on your shot... but I wanna see your shot in action before I open my mouth any further.

It sounds like you are not getting elbow in front enough, or are prepping the bat way too far back, but I gotta see it before I can say much that will make sense right now.

This is one from a few months back but hopefully will give some insight into what I am doing. In this vid I was focused on starting the bat higher but you can see a lot of the balls are landing mid table.

 

[blahness]

I tried the Viscaria with D09c setup at the club today for a bit. While in training the adjustment is fairly minor, it's a huge difference playing against people lol. My BH shots were going off the table all the time, while my FH shots were hitting the net all the time. Since I'm focused on developing the basics, I'm gonna stick to my current setup for now. You can learn the basics with any setup. In the future I might pick up the Viscaria. I have 2 more weeks to achieve my goals for my BH, and I'm getting pretty close. I'm itching to start working on my FH again, it's been almost a year now since I last worked on it and it's really starting to show lol.

Today at the club my BH shots were getting a lot better. Still has trouble with service receives though. Against long serves I just don't have enough control to put it anywhere I want unlike my FH side. I think I'm gonna practice specifically against services. On the FH side I kinda just treated them like regular backspin, topspin, or no spin balls, and just aim a little differently to compensate for the sidespin. I'm not sure why I couldn't do that on the BH side even though I had my partner specifically serve me long balls (though random spins).

It's funny. I'm almost the opposite to you, in that my BH is a lot stronger than my FH in general, especially in serve receive. I almost receive serve 2/3 of the table with BH at this point lol.

I think I had some real improvements in my FH today (especially BH-FH transitions) by keeping my bat high in general especially during topspin rallies. But it also helps tremendously to smoothen the short to long ball transition (because short receives your bat is high, so if you start off with a high bat with the loop it's less effort to transition even if you guessed wrong on the length). I feel like my FH is much less of a liability today due to this change.

 

[Der_Echte]

This is one from a few months back but hopefully will give some insight into what I am doing. In this vid I was focused on starting the bat higher but you can see a lot of the balls are landing mid table.

Hi Wrighty,

I see a few things.

The times it looked like you were trying to go cross court on your BH... you started with the hips and body squared towards the short side line direction or the middle T, instead of cross court. So when the ball comes to your natural strike zone, and you try impacting it there, your ball will tend to go towards where you body is squared towards. That part should make sense.

Another thing I see is you are moving your upper arm and elbow during the shot before impact. This will make your shot very unstable and inconsistent for a BH at the table. it is almost like you are moving it all to get that ball to go cross court.

It is real important to keep upper arm and elbow stable at impact... it is where you get leverage for your shot close to the table. You should imagine you are making the shot while your left hand is wrapped around lower right bicep to keep that upper arm and elbow stable... and imagine you are pivoting everything on your elbow... so that means only the lower arm is moving to the ball at point/time of impact.

Once you get those biomechanics straight and also have your body set to where you are trying to land, it will be way more effortless and easy to land that BH where you are trying to.

Later, there are some adjustments to how you slide that strike zone to the left or right to make the ball go different places... along with how close to or how far away from body you strike the ball to make it go a different direction.

An example is if you are squared to go down the line short side of table... and opponent sees this and starts to step there... you see that and begin swing a tad early so you strike the ball more in front... since the swing is like opening a door to the outside... when you strike the ball, now your impact vector is oriented cross court to opponent BH corner and got him guessing wrong. The opposite would be if he is staying hiz azz in BH corner, so you slide bat to the right some on prep to set strike zone a little more inside, and strike ball a little closer to body... so now that ball is going down short side of table down FH line by opponent.

When you can control those, you will amaze yourself at how easy it is to crush that BH shot anywhere without trying too hard and make your opponents have zero clue where you are going.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty,

I see a few things.

The times it looked like you were trying to go cross court on your BH... you started with the hips and body squared towards the short side line direction or the middle T, instead of cross court. So when the ball comes to your natural strike zone, and you try impacting it there, your ball will tend to go towards where you body is squared towards. That part should make sense.

Another thing I see is you are moving your upper arm and elbow during the shot before impact. This will make your shot very unstable and inconsistent for a BH at the table. it is almost like you are moving it all to get that ball to go cross court.

It is real important to keep upper arm and elbow stable at impact... it is where you get leverage for your shot close to the table. You should imagine you are making the shot while your left hand is wrapped around lower right bicep to keep that upper arm and elbow stable... and imagine you are pivoting everything on your elbow... so that means only the lower arm is moving to the ball at point/time of impact.

Once you get those biomechanics straight and also have your body set to where you are trying to land, it will be way more effortless and easy to land that BH where you are trying to.

Later, there are some adjustments to how you slide that strike zone to the left or right to make the ball go different places... along with how close to or how far away from body you strike the ball to make it go a different direction.

An example is if you are squared to go down the line short side of table... and opponent sees this and starts to step there... you see that and begin swing a tad early so you strike the ball more in front... since the swing is like opening a door to the outside... when you strike the ball, now your impact vector is oriented cross court to opponent BH corner and got him guessing wrong. The opposite would be if he is staying hiz azz in BH corner, so you slide bat to the right some on prep to set strike zone a little more inside, and strike ball a little closer to body... so now that ball is going down short side of table down FH line by opponent.

When you can control those, you will amaze yourself at how easy it is to crush that BH shot anywhere without trying too hard and make your opponents have zero clue where you are going.

Thanks - both points make sense. I can see that I need to shift my body position to where I want the ball to go.

The elbow - I hadn't been aware of that before, but can clearly see it now and need to practice how that feels to keep the elbow fixed and stable.

 

[Wrighty67]

I used to do a backhand version of what Ti Long does here around 4:40 in, just smaller and flatter because it was the backhand - similar to the pancake flipping that Ma Long sometimes does on the backhand:

NL - I have watched the Ti Long video again and wanted to clarify something. Is he saying that in order to maximise success against backspin, that the racket angle needs to be very open (as he demonstrates when showing the drive return vs back) - if so is this just for demonstration purpose or does he advocate a more open racket when looping?

 

[Pepo]

im currently trying big dipper 38 - great rubber, wau spin, good control, good for short, great for offensive game close to table, ok for powershots - harder version will be killer for sure

when i squeezed BD i was surprised how soft it really is - 38 is way too soft for FH. tried it on BH and its almost perfect BH rubber, mby ill consider BD 39 as BH in the future
dont know if it will help anyone, but i made short video with sanwei target national 62-001 (old version, new is 62-021) and yinhe big dipper 38

 

[NextLevel]

NL - I have watched the Ti Long video again and wanted to clarify something. Is he saying that in order to maximise success against backspin, that the racket angle needs to be very open (as he demonstrates when showing the drive return vs back) - if so is this just for demonstration purpose or does he advocate a more open racket when looping?

I won't focus too much on speaking for him - there are few concepts he is trying to communicate in there but my understanding of them are as follows:

1) spin neutralizing angle/contact point and swing trajectory.
2) learning to use it to play relatively flat shots
3) making your spin shot a variant/kin of the flat shot so that you don't see the issue as of one trying to just swing harder to compensate for heavy backspin, but know that you can get some of the right effect by adjusting your contact point and related swing trajectory.

He is advocating that you learn to drive backspin by opening the racket and pancaking it and that this will improve your ability to topspin the ball without working too hard. Most pros do this as well as some variant of spin avoidance when looping extremely heavy backspin. It's more about developing a feel that doesn't make you think that you need "lift" backspin - you "turn it", so to speak and primarily use/borrow the incoming spin rather than overpowering it. I topspin better against backspin that topspin largely because of these ideas (my coach taught me similar things when I was developing my style).

Learning to loop backspin without learning to hit it makes people underestimate how much easier it is if you set the right angle/path early.

 

[Wrighty67]

I won't focus too much on speaking for him - there are few concepts he is trying to communicate in there but my understanding of them are as follows:

1) spin neutralizing angle/contact point and swing trajectory.
2) learning to use it to play relatively flat shots
3) making your spin shot a variant/kin of the flat shot so that you don't see the issue as of one trying to just swing harder to compensate for heavy backspin, but know that you can get some of the right effect by adjusting your contact point and related swing trajectory.

He is advocating that you learn to drive backspin by opening the racket and pancaking it and that this will improve your ability to topspin the ball without working too hard. Most pros do this as well as some variant of spin avoidance when looping extremely heavy backspin. It's more about developing a feel that doesn't make you think that you need "lift" backspin - you "turn it", so to speak and primarily use/borrow the incoming spin rather than overpowering it. I topspin better against backspin that topspin largely because of these ideas (my coach taught me similar things when I was developing my style).

Learning to loop backspin without learning to hit it makes people underestimate how much easier it is if you set the right angle/path early.

Thanks for the simplification - that makes sense to me in terms of the feel, I just need to think harder about the practical application in a loop situation (and I am struggling mentally to see how I apply a more open racket head to an attacking loop)

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks for the simplification - that makes sense to me in terms of the feel, I just need to think harder about the practical application in a loop situation (and I am struggling mentally to see how I apply a more open racket head to an attacking loop)

Start your stroke with your racket feeling open and swing to your finish position. It gets smoother as you follow the shape of the ball more and more and time the ball better over time. Or just do the exercise in the video to get a feel for hitting and it will translate over time to how you spin the ball.

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks - both points make sense. I can see that I need to shift my body position to where I want the ball to go.

The elbow - I hadn't been aware of that before, but can clearly see it now and need to practice how that feels to keep the elbow fixed and stable.

So many people in the past had the idea to do a BH that involved pivoting on the shoulder joint to use the upper arm and move that sucker all around thinking it gave them a longer lever and more leverage... that is so far from efficient biomechanics, but for decades, it was simply accepted as Gospel.

I gisted a ton of KJH vids where he discusses the BH and biomechanics - he (Kim Jung Hoon) very clearly champions efficient biomechanics, can spot inefficiencies a mile away, and can articulate well to amateur players how to correct them... both with the description of the stroke and the kind of feeling/sensation you are trying to get (catch and throw for example)

The Korean BH punch that the Samsung Life vid called the BH PUSH also shows efficient biomechanics and that vid had English translation... it was a series of training vids where Samsung Life Team Coach Lee Byoung Cheul (and famous Korean Youtuber Takkyu) teaches two young Korean ladies various techniques to get them to be able to compete many levels higher than where they started. Just hit the CC button to get English sub on the vid.

This is only a BH HIT technique close to the table that uses a short lower arm stroke, but a lot of the concepts transfer to the BH topspin close to the table. Even on the BH topspin you do not need a long backswing or a huge follow through.

 

[Der_Echte]

Start your stroke with your racket feeling open and swing to your finish position. It gets smoother as you follow the shape of the ball more and more and time the ball better over time. Or just do the exercise in the video to get a feel for hitting and it will translate over time to how you spin the ball.

Yes, a lot of my BH prep would show I have an open angle from the get-go on my hits and a lot of my BH topspins.

 

[blahness]

This is one from a few months back but hopefully will give some insight into what I am doing. In this vid I was focused on starting the bat higher but you can see a lot of the balls are landing mid table.

First thing I notice is that you have no hip rotation at all. Even though you can't rotate as much as the FH you still need to rotate inwards anticlockwise as the 1st movement, otherwise the power from the legs is not coming out at all.

The tell is to watch the right hip in relation to the left hip.

 

[Der_Echte]

To be honest, at the table, you do not want want hip rotation. You want to lean over forward bending at the waist with feet shoulder width apart and get the elbow in front bat open and back to side or front of belly button depending on where you setting the strike zone and naturally strike the ball well.

This sets the leverage and there is no need to take long backswing or make body rotation. it doesn't enhance the leverage at all and adds complexity/inefficiency in timing and striking.

You get your kinetic energy started with the pushing off with feet going up and transfer/amplify it to lower arm and short swing on elbow and firm at impact to deliver that nice power.

Now away from the table, it is proper to backswing a little more (make bat go to side of belly) (this makes go infront of belly button and almost touch it) behind side of belly a little along with some hip coiling and shoulder coiling... push off with feet/legs and let those hips and shoulders add big power. You have the time and space to do it that way away from the table and be consistent.

At the table there is no time and space for it to work and it isn't needed to make power at the table.

 

[blahness]

To be honest, at the table, you do not want want hip rotation. You want to lean over forward bending at the waist with feet shoulder width apart and get the elbow in front bat open and back to side or front of belly button depending on where you setting the strike zone and naturally strike the ball well.

This sets the leverage and there is no need to take long backswing or make body rotation. it doesn't enhance the leverage at all and adds complexity/inefficiency in timing and striking.

You get your kinetic energy started with the pushing off with feet going up and transfer/amplify it to lower arm and short swing on elbow and firm at impact to deliver that nice power.

Now away from the table, it is proper to backswing a little more (make bat go to side of belly) (this makes go infront of belly button and almost touch it) behind side of belly a little along with some hip coiling and shoulder coiling... push off with feet/legs and let those hips and shoulders add big power. You have the time and space to do it that way away from the table and be consistent.

At the table there is no time and space for it to work and it isn't needed to make power at the table.

There's no need for full on 90 deg body rotation like Kreanga but it cannot be 0 deg - this shows that the movement is not coming from or being initiated by the lower body which is one of the most important concepts in powerful and controlled topspin play.

You can see clearly Harimoto places his right hip (and consequently his right shoulder) in front of his left at max backswing - see 1:05

With this short hip rotation it also becomes much easier to disguise down the line vs diagonal shots.

 

[blahness]

I actually kinda dig Wrighty's arm movement - he seems to have the right idea about how to shape the BH topspin (there is a lifting movement as well as a pressing down movement, and the bat angles all seem correct) - and you can see how easy it is for him to topspin the robot underspin. Imo if he adds the body mechanics (weight transfer, hip rotation - even if its just 20 degrees) - it would be a powerful stroke with plenty of control. Don't think he needs to change it all that much.

Going from his current full BH topspin movement, to something that resembles a weak inconsistent BH flathit that more resembles a traditional penhold BH taught by KJH would be a step backwards imo.

 

[OvrChkn]

Focusing a lot on footwork drills the past month. Having trouble with dealing with half-long balls to my forehand and this video has come out at the perfect time.

 

[blahness]

Focusing a lot on footwork drills the past month. Having trouble with dealing with half-long balls to my forehand and this video has come out at the perfect time.

Excellent PechPong video - I found the analysis excellent as usual!