DHS Inner Carbon Blades Comparison: Sun Yingsha, Wang Chuqin, Long 5 & B2X

[Haito]

Seems like you are a Loki fan. I have seen you a lot on loki thread.

Not a fan, but a user. I've tried different blades over the years. And the mass produced ones were hollow. I've used a bunch of different German rubbers, they died super fast.

I am just happy to have something that I can depend on, that does not cost an arm and leg. The W81 is slow a bit. I will keep using it for a while, but its a bit annoying that I have to put so much strength to activate it... I need to go the gym I guess.

 

[SDC]

I would love @SDC to chime in, he has much more practical experience than me. I just know the theory. My blade making never went anywhere. I failed to find correct veneers.

What exactly do you want my opinion on? I can't read the whole thread 😅

 

[Haito]

What exactly do you want my opinion on? I can't read the whole thread 😅

Sources of blade variability in serial production, and effects of variation in wood density and thickness on vibration.

 

[Kilogramme]

Sources of blade variability in serial production, and effects of variation in wood density and thickness on vibration.

From my research, engineering knowledge, and culture on other topics, variability can come from a tiny thing as weather.

Wood comes from trees, and the same tree species can come from different location. Then for a similar location, each tree is unique, that creates variables. Additionally, the area of the wood plank cut can creates variation. Middle or outer part is different, which creates variable. That can be applied to each ply. The sealant between ply can also changes depending on the temp and moisture in the room when used (even altitude of the factory can impact that).

DHS and probably all brand, have multiple sources for their wood. Then, they make batches of blade with the same wood plank. Then when each blade is finished; they control each blade of the batch with measurement tools and eye control. Depending on the results they put a certain number for pros, and the rest for commercial sales

 

[Archosaurus]

From my research, engineering knowledge, and culture on other topics, variability can come from a tiny thing as weather.

Wood comes from trees, and the same tree species can come from different location. Then for a similar location, each tree is unique, that creates variables. Additionally, the area of the wood plank cut can creates variation. Middle or outer part is different, which creates variable. That can be applied to each ply. The sealant between ply can also changes depending on the temp and moisture in the room when used (even altitude of the factory can impact that).

DHS and probably all brand, have multiple sources for their wood. Then, they make batches of blade with the same wood plank. Then when each blade is finished; they control each blade of the batch with measurement tools and eye control. Depending on the results they put a certain number for pros, and the rest for commercial sales

AFAIK the wood sourced for DHS pro blades is uniquely different from the commercial ones.

 

[victormanriquey]

From my research, engineering knowledge, and culture on other topics, variability can come from a tiny thing as weather.

Wood comes from trees, and the same tree species can come from different location. Then for a similar location, each tree is unique, that creates variables. Additionally, the area of the wood plank cut can creates variation. Middle or outer part is different, which creates variable. That can be applied to each ply. The sealant between ply can also changes depending on the temp and moisture in the room when used (even altitude of the factory can impact that).

DHS and probably all brand, have multiple sources for their wood. Then, they make batches of blade with the same wood plank. Then when each blade is finished; they control each blade of the batch with measurement tools and eye control. Depending on the results they put a certain number for pros, and the rest for commercial sales

Yes agreed, there is a very nice video of a guy making snowboard boards (I used to snowboard a lot before my shoulder started having the bad habit of going out on its own 😂 ) and he mentions how the same trees in finland are very different from the same trees in nice weather countries for example, he makes a joke that in finland those trees have to work for their wood so wood is better

 

[Kilogramme]

AFAIK the wood sourced for DHS pro blades is uniquely different from the commercial ones.

No, all W968 have the same wood origin, but depending on the blade out of the factory line they chose if it is for Ma Long, or nat team, or prov team.

A w968 and a commercial HL5 are different blade. Same composition, but like I said with variability, probably not the same tree region/season. Cheaper Limba for HL5 would not be surprising.

 

[Archosaurus]

No, all W968 have the same wood origin, but depending on the blade out of the factory line they chose if it is for Ma Long, or nat team, or prov team.

A w968 and a commercial HL5 are different blade. Same composition, but like I said with variability, probably not the same tree region/season. Cheaper Limba for HL5 would not be surprising.

W968 are pro blades only, they're not commercial products. Those are the ones I mean.

 

[thisisit]

AFAIK the wood sourced for DHS pro blades is uniquely different from the commercial ones.

yes, DHS works closely with the CNT silviculture department. every promising player gets his own two trees, one limba(some get switch to koto though, but very rarely) and one ayous and they get to spend ~10 years together, time in which they naturally influence each other's characters. the trees get to know the player and each other and form a tight bond.

after the ~10 years pass, DHS cuts down the two trees and makes blades from them for that specific player.

this is the main reason amateur players get stuck EJing. their perfect blade doesn't exist because they don't take the time to emotionally align with the wood from which their matching blade could be made from.

 

[Kilogramme]

yes, DHS works closely with the CNT silviculture department. every promising player gets his own two trees, one limba(some get switch to koto though, but very rarely) and one ayous and they get to spend ~10 years together, time in which they naturally influence each other's characters. the trees get to know the player and each other and form a tight bond.

after the ~10 years pass, DHS cuts down the two trees and makes blades from them for that specific player.

this is the main reason amateur players get stuck EJing. their perfect blade doesn't exist because they don't take the time to emotionally align with the wood from which their matching blade could be made from.

Makes sense, you need to create a bond with the tree, connect with it before it becomes the extension of your arm. I heard that implementing our own DNA in the tree helps gets the best blade for connection.

 

[SDC]

Sources of blade variability in serial production, and effects of variation in wood density and thickness on vibration.

Every little difference creates variation, that's inevitable when dealing with wood. Variation in TT blades is inevitable, it just depends on how the manufacturer deals with that variation, that is called QC. DHS actually deals with it quite well, they basically have the same product at different QC levels, priced differently. I think they just don't explain that to customers very well (on purpose, of course). I don't know how other brands operate, but the logic would be (to the ones that outsource their blades), to establish certain QC parameters, and the blades that don't follow those parameters get rejected. Tighter QC limits increase the price of course, I'm not sure if they are all doing this. For brands that build they own blades like Butterfly, I think that the QC is applied before construction, they control the materials and reject what doesn't fit, but not the final product (unless it has an obvious defect).

 

[Kilogramme]

Every little difference creates variation, that's inevitable when dealing with wood. Variation in TT blades is inevitable, it just depends on how the manufacturer deals with that variation, that is called QC. DHS actually deals with it quite well, they basically have the same product at different QC levels, priced differently. I think they just don't explain that to customers very well (on purpose, of course). I don't know how other brands operate, but the logic would be (to the ones that outsource their blades), to establish certain QC parameters, and the blades that don't follow those parameters get rejected. Tighter QC limits increase the price of course, I'm not sure if they are all doing this. For brands that build they own blades like Butterfly, I think that the QC is applied before construction, they control the materials and reject what doesn't fit, but not the final product (unless it has an obvious defect).

They all do QC on the tree. When you order something it has to follow the specification of the order. But I know some brand when the product don't suits their QC (finished blade without handle) they resell it to other minor brand that sells a "Blade alike" at 40€. Sometimes the blade is good, just not in what BTY or other brand wanted at first.

 

[Archosaurus]

yes, DHS works closely with the CNT silviculture department. every promising player gets his own two trees, one limba(some get switch to koto though, but very rarely) and one ayous and they get to spend ~10 years together, time in which they naturally influence each other's characters. the trees get to know the player and each other and form a tight bond.

after the ~10 years pass, DHS cuts down the two trees and makes blades from them for that specific player.

this is the main reason amateur players get stuck EJing. their perfect blade doesn't exist because they don't take the time to emotionally align with the wood from which their matching blade could be made from.

I'm basing my statement based on official statements from Chinese tabletennis media and sponsored foreign players. They claim it's not from the same batch. I don't know if it just means it's selected for a higher grade or is a completely different tree or whatever.

 

[victormanriquey]

Every little difference creates variation, that's inevitable when dealing with wood. Variation in TT blades is inevitable, it just depends on how the manufacturer deals with that variation, that is called QC. DHS actually deals with it quite well, they basically have the same product at different QC levels, priced differently. I think they just don't explain that to customers very well (on purpose, of course). I don't know how other brands operate, but the logic would be (to the ones that outsource their blades), to establish certain QC parameters, and the blades that don't follow those parameters get rejected. Tighter QC limits increase the price of course, I'm not sure if they are all doing this. For brands that build they own blades like Butterfly, I think that the QC is applied before construction, they control the materials and reject what doesn't fit, but not the final product (unless it has an obvious defect).

Yep this all makes a lot of sense, also Butterfly has factory sealing and DHS often doesnt bother on commercial blades or rather let the player customize every detail of it, in the end its good for price and good if you like tinkering

 

[Kilogramme]

I'm basing my statement based on official statements from Chinese tabletennis media and sponsored foreign players. They claim it's not from the same batch. I don't know if it just means it's selected for a higher grade or is a completely different tree or whatever.

When you chose a W968-number, it is a batch of 50ish blades. The best version are numbered 1 to 5, rest is random till like 20 or 50 I don't remember how many blade per batch there is. Best version are for National player, rest for provincial and commercial sales. Note, that they limit their National number in the batch, so 968-18 can be as good as a 968-2. But if the 5 were within the Nat tolerances are early in the batch, you can get a good one later too. But here we talk about minimal changes. All 968 are very high quality blades.

And very limited number of player (back then it was Ma Long only, now maybe WCQ too) could get a specific rubber and blade with their preferences. When Ma Long was at his prime, he had specific rubber (H3 variant) made only for him (the Ma Long rubber you can purchase are not the same he used), softer topsheet, enhanced sponge etc.. Other Nat player did not have this luxury. This info was shared when Ma Long was still competing at international stage. I suppose WCQ is now able to get the same treatment as he is the clear Number 1 of Chinese TT team.

 

[victormanriquey]

When you chose a W968-number, it is a batch of 50ish blades. The best version are numbered 1 to 5, rest is random till like 20 or 50 I don't remember how many blade per batch there is. Best version are for National player, rest for provincial and commercial sales. Note, that they limit their National number in the batch, so 968-18 can be as good as a 968-2. But if the 5 were within the Nat tolerances are early in the batch, you can get a good one later too. But here we talk about minimal changes. All 968 are very high quality blades.

And very limited number of player (back then it was Ma Long only, now maybe WCQ too) could get a specific rubber and blade with their preferences. When Ma Long was at his prime, he had specific rubber (H3 variant) made only for him (the Ma Long rubber you can purchase are not the same he used), softer topsheet, enhanced sponge etc.. Other Nat player did not have this luxury. This info was shared when Ma Long was still competing at international stage. I suppose WCQ is now able to get the same treatment as he is the clear Number 1 of Chinese TT team.

Yeah it is known that the pros get the best blades and also that they can customize their rubbers, I think it's not only CNT players, most others will also get their rubbers and blades (especially handles) to their liking, it's normal, just like with many other sports where pros get better stuff than what's in the shops.

 

[Archosaurus]

When you chose a W968-number, it is a batch of 50ish blades. The best version are numbered 1 to 5, rest is random till like 20 or 50 I don't remember how many blade per batch there is. Best version are for National player, rest for provincial and commercial sales. Note, that they limit their National number in the batch, so 968-18 can be as good as a 968-2. But if the 5 were within the Nat tolerances are early in the batch, you can get a good one later too. But here we talk about minimal changes. All 968 are very high quality blades.

And very limited number of player (back then it was Ma Long only, now maybe WCQ too) could get a specific rubber and blade with their preferences. When Ma Long was at his prime, he had specific rubber (H3 variant) made only for him (the Ma Long rubber you can purchase are not the same he used), softer topsheet, enhanced sponge etc.. Other Nat player did not have this luxury. This info was shared when Ma Long was still competing at international stage. I suppose WCQ is now able to get the same treatment as he is the clear Number 1 of Chinese TT team.

They don't number them by grade, they number them by production order. Ma Long just always played with a #1 blade because he just took the first one from each day's batch to test at the start of the year, nothing complicated about it.

EDIT: Also, all sponsored players and all of the A-team players get customized rubbers and blades. B-team players get Neo National and more generic, but hand-picked, blades.

The STAR Player ones are made at the DHS Institute and should be "replicas" of the real ones, but they're not really the same batch. Although Fang Bo has shown those on stream, claiming they're rubbers from 2017. DHS could just be packaging and labeling them identically as a marketing thing which is likely. I don't think it matters; they're probably nigh-identical, just not the super specific and customized versions for Olympics and specific opponents.

Also it's 30 blades per batch typically. Oh, sorry, total 40-50, but 30 go to the teams IIRC.

 

[Kilogramme]

They don't number them by grade, they number them by production order. Ma Long just always played with a #1 blade because he just took the first one from each day's batch to test at the start of the year, nothing complicated about it.

EDIT: Also, all sponsored players and all of the A-team players get customized rubbers and blades. B-team players get Neo National and more generic, but hand-picked, blades.

The STAR Player ones are made at the DHS Institute and should be "replicas" of the real ones, but they're not really the same batch. Although Fang Bo has shown those on stream, claiming they're rubbers from 2017. DHS could just be packaging and labeling them identically as a marketing thing which is likely. I don't think it matters; they're probably nigh-identical, just not the super specific and customized versions for Olympics and specific opponents.

Also it's 30 blades per batch typically. Oh, sorry, total 40-50, but 30 go to the teams IIRC.

Well, some of the info I explained comes from DHS themselves. They expressed that number are linked to a single batch (I just don't remember coz idc the number of blade per batch). But the Number 1/2/3 info, being the best of the batch come from a former CNT player explaining that. Similarly for the rubber. Only few CNT player got specific rubber. (according to the translation imo)

DHS stated that the STAR rubber are "commercial" national version. Basically a national but with the same hardness as the player preferred hardness with special packaging. After seing player trying to get their hands of Pro's equipment they thought about selling those "player" editions. Just packaging stuff lol. A 41.5deg Ma long, and a 41.5deg WCQ should be the same rubber for exemple. Also, there is a old Player rubber version with old packaging, and a new one. Maybe Fang Bo was referring to the old version of player H3.

My DHS official infos comes from a DHS book in mandarin, I translated it with google translate.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, some of the info I explained comes from DHS themselves. They expressed that number are linked to a single batch (I just don't remember coz idc the number of blade per batch). But the Number 1/2/3 info, being the best of the batch come from a former CNT player explaining that. Similarly for the rubber. Only few CNT player got specific rubber. (according to the translation imo)

DHS stated that the STAR rubber are "commercial" national version. Basically a national but with the same hardness as the player preferred hardness with special packaging. After seing player trying to get their hands of Pro's equipment they thought about selling those "player" editions. Just packaging stuff lol. A 41.5deg Ma long, and a 41.5deg WCQ should be the same rubber for exemple. Also, there is a old Player rubber version with old packaging, and a new one. Maybe Fang Bo was referring to the old version of player H3.

My DHS official infos comes from a DHS book in mandarin, I translated it with google translate.

DHS pro blades aren't numbered by quality. They're numbered by production order. The "lower number is better quality" is a fabrication made by the retailers.

All of the higher grade DHS National rubbers are made in the DHS Institute, so they're not any different in that way. The only thing that's really gonna differ between STAR and National is that they're probably just picking the absolute best sheets they can still sell and make a profit on.

I would not be surprised if the different same hardness sponges have a different hysteresis and damping curve from eachother; or they could just be the same thing packaged differently; who knows.

I don't think they're really the same; there's obvious visual and tactile differences between them, although I haven't looked at all of them myself so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Kilogramme]

DHS pro blades aren't numbered by quality. They're numbered by production order. The "lower number is better quality" is a fabrication made by the retailers.

All of the higher grade DHS National rubbers are made in the DHS Institute, so they're not any different in that way. The only thing that's really gonna differ between STAR and National is that they're probably just picking the absolute best sheets they can still sell and make a profit on.

I would not be surprised if the different same hardness sponges have a different hysteresis and damping curve from eachother; or they could just be the same thing packaged differently; who knows.

I don't think they're really the same; there's obvious visual and tactile differences between them, although I haven't looked at all of them myself so take it with a grain of salt.

Well one thing for sure, Pro's are not using Star labelled H3.

I think we got lost in the topic for specificity common player are unable to extract.