Dimitrij Ovtcharov unhappy with new ITTF World Ranking system!

[NextLevel]

Timo just won a tournament organized in Germany, partly as a warm-up tournament for the WTTC. And he won 3-0 against Gauzy in the semi finals, and 3-0 against Ovtcharov in the finals, so he still has the level, also when his seeding would be different.

I don't think they should mak the ranking so dependent on participation, but yes, maybe a bit more then now. Also, you will not get any more points when you win against Ma Long or against i don't know, Franziska, when it is in the same round, only how far you get in the tournament matters. That is not good, I think

Of course we know that Timo can do this. Would he consistently do this if he had to face Dima and Gauzy in round 1?

The latter is how the ATP works too and no one doubts that the best players are usually #1. Not all tournaments are ranked equal and if you see the list, you will see that Timo is not representative of what goes on in the list. He just doesn't play on the tour anymore.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think it comes down to how you look at the ranking system. Does it:

1. Show the true ranking of players "ability" worldwide?
2. Show the current "form" of players worldwide?

If Federer stops playing for 2 years, his "form" is likely to be very poor, and therefore he'll be "ranked" accordingly.

However, you could still argue that his ability is still very high, and on par with the top players - As shown in Australia recently.

So yes, there will be players who are arguably much better than their ranking (typically the older players who play less tournaments) - But as previously said.... They only need to play 8 to keep a decent ranking anyway.

Seems like everyone here is focus on top 10 or top 50
ALready if you don't play ITTF matches in 4 months (if I am correct), you will be removed from the ranking.

We need to know there is 3 tiers (or more) of players who can actually take part in internationals

Tier 1 - your top 50 who has financial support to go to plenty of Internationals being fully funded
Tier 2 - half funded, and are limited to a handful of internationals a year
Tier 3 - self funded

When comes to WTTTC, ranking is key and for the other 90% of the countries that take parts, this will be chaos if all your Tier 2 and Tier 3 don't have ranking.

Seems like ITTF is moving over to "Tier 1" only with either ranking system

 

[Persistence TT]

Just like to add one thing though.

The ITTF wants to improve the value of their pro tour, but only very few players can win and earn so much to make a proper living, since there isn't as much cheddar in TT as it is in tennis. Only very few will be able to rely only on their prize money.
I don't know bout other countries, but in Germany the players get most of their loot from participation in TTBL not from ProTours. So in the end it will be the clubs who give TT-players most of their salary but get bent over and screwed, 'cause their players are either at a ProTour or recovering from injury that they got from ProTour participation.
Of course i've exaggerated a bit, but that's where this could lead to, 'cause less players could see a possible future for themselves trying to make a living from TT and only relying on ProTour prize money. I think the ITTF shouldn't put hassle to the clubs that give quite a few players an outcome with their income.

Does anyone know if ITTF is co-operating with hotels, food companies & transportation companies to lower the cost of participants in their pro tours?

It amazes me that they still have not fixed th ITTV product and they put their hands on something else

Sometimes I think they should experiment by creating an international league with the top 32 or 64 players and only one chinese will be allowed per team. It would definitely be more interesting than watching an uninterested chinese practicing against some random guy and maybe it will attract more sponsors.

Such a league will definitely attract people in sweden, belgium,france, russia ,germany and it can change the viewership and interest immensely.


I know it sounds crazy but in the 90's the german/french league were basically something similar

 

[NextLevel]

Seems like everyone here is focus on top 10 or top 50
ALready if you don't play ITTF matches in 4 months (if I am correct), you will be removed from the ranking.

We need to know there is 3 tiers (or more) of players who can actually take part in internationals

Tier 1 - your top 50 who has financial support to go to plenty of Internationals being fully funded
Tier 2 - half funded, and are limited to a handful of internationals a year
Tier 3 - self funded

When comes to WTTTC, ranking is key and for the other 90% of the countries that take parts, this will be chaos if all your Tier 2 and Tier 3 don't have ranking.

Seems like ITTF is moving over to "Tier 1" only with either ranking system

The one thing people should realize is that Ratings Central exists and it is easy for anyone to get a player's relative strength using an ELO type system like Ratings Central. I think for official purposes, not focusing on players strength and trying to get something that encourages tour activity is a step in the right direction. However, as Tony pointed out, we might have some players that don't play often for reasons other than injury (like finances) getting marginalized. But the North Koreans already exist anyways.

I think that if they can find a way to create more money at the top, it might filter down to the bottom over time. That is what happened with Tennis, though on the other hand, what creates more money at the top is in part more money at the bottom (more fans viewing and paying to be nationals association members).

 

[ttpshot]

It's bit of the chicken/egg problem. Currently, most players are keen to participate as little PTs as possible to keep their rankings. It's partly because PT have smaller money than pro leagues, less profile than WTTCs and olympics. By having more importance on participating in the PT, it'll hopefully attract more players and raising profile and the prize money in the long run. I'm not sure if that's the right direction because unlike tennis, WTTC and team matches are a lot more popular. But I like the fact ITTF is trying to move forward and I can clearly see their intent.

As for "rankings should reflect true strength of the player" argument. We have been fine with top 50 rankings not filled with Chinese players(seriously, more than half of women's top 100 rankings will be Chinese) for ages, I think we'll also be fine this time around. A player I see advancing the PT the most and often, gets higher rankings is clear enough for me.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It's bit of the chicken/egg problem. Currently, most players are keen to participate as little PTs as possible to keep their rankings. It's partly because PT have smaller money than pro leagues, less profile than WTTCs and olympics. By having more importance on participating in the PT, it'll hopefully attract more players and raising profile and the prize money in the long run. I'm not sure if that's the right direction because unlike tennis, WTTC and team matches are a lot more popular. But I like the fact ITTF is trying to move forward and I can clearly see their intent.

As for "rankings should reflect true strength of the player" argument. We have been fine with top 50 rankings not filled with Chinese players(seriously, more than half of women's top 100 rankings will be Chinese) for ages, I think we'll also be fine this time around. A player I see advancing the PT the most and often, gets higher rankings is clear enough for me.

I think ITTF wants to take full control of TT, but then again, WT (not PT anymore) is half ITTF, and half the local organising committee.

Now, what is bigger audience
League, or World Cup?

The problem is most local organising committee and ITTF are not able to get in audiences compared to what some clubs can get in. and ITTF can't all of a sudden get so much cash injection for prize money for 90% of the participants to even get something worthwhile.

With what ITTF is doing, we can compare with FIFA vs Champions League, FIBA vs NBA, Golf, WTA, etc.
Does Tennis have a league structure for the pros? i'm not sure, but i don't think there is. So being Pro, is just WTA?

Now TT has league and WT
Then there is "training" and non WT tournaments, like development/social programs etc.

Its already a very busy schedule to be a TT athlete - there is no time for holiday.
With the force rules of competing, would imo further strain the players more:
- to make a living (league)
- to do development/promotion/upliftments
- to train, adjust technique, improve
- injury time/recovery
- world tours or else get low ranking - which will jeoardise world teams, world event and olympic qualifications etc
the last part is where it will hurt the most

 

[Suga D]

I've read your post with mixed feelings.

Timo just won a tournament organized in Germany, partly as a warm-up tournament for the WTTC. And he won 3-0 against Gauzy in the semi finals, and 3-0 against Ovtcharov in the finals, so he still has the level, also when his seeding would be different.

Well you must be talking of the "New Horizon" masters, which is the follow up to the "Energis" Masters, an invitational, non-ITTF sanctioned exhibition tournament.
Certainly nobody wants to loose purposely, but pros rather see this like e.g. a friendly match between Football National Teams where teams are allowed to have 6 substitutes instead of 3 like usual. It's where coaches are experimenting tactically or try out new players.
Just one point: last year Dima was caught playing there with Bluefire rubbers, and just a few weeks later and also a few weeks before he was seen using his t05 as usual at a ProTour tournament. So that should tell you how serious pros see this tournament and how much weight we can put on these results. Maybe it was good for Timo's mentality having won against Dima and Gauzy though.
But it's said that this tournament has a nice relaxed vibe.
[Emoji6]
Nevertheless i still upvoted your post, mainly because of this part right here:

I don't think they should mak the ranking so dependent on participation, but yes, maybe a bit more then now. Also, you will not get any more points when you win against Ma Long or against i don't know, Franziska, when it is in the same round, only how far you get in the tournament matters. That is not good, I think

An interesting point you raise there and probably another reason why i don't like this new rating system.
Let's say Benedikt Duda would make it past group stage and as a qualifier then in the first round of k.o. stage would face a topseeded player like Xu Xin as seed No#3 for example. Now imagine he would catch XX off balance and would manage to win against him, just to face Simon Gauzy in the second round and Gauzy has another one of his brilliant days and knocks Duda off the table in the second round.

Now with today's rating Duda would still get some points for winning over XX.

But with the new rating he would get zilch plus a free handshake.

Probably i also don't like this new system, 'cause i don't think it's very fair. Or at least it's not more fair than the recent system IMHO.

 

[Suga D]

One last statement from my side:

Dear ITTF, there is a reason that there are sayings like:
Never change a running system!
and
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Maybe think about this for a minute!

 

[edgy]

Dima is just mad that WCT is ahead of him at no. 4 in the new rankings

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It would be nice to see the two rating systems work side by side for a few months to see a comparison.

I don't have much to say about the proposed system. I feel like you guys have done a decent job of examining some of the pros and cons of each system.

There is something I do remember that made me question the validity of the current system. Back in 2010 when Ma Long was injured and Timo Boll slid sideways into the top spot it seemed totally off to me. I think Timo was there for a couple of months. But he was injured too. He went into the WR #1 slot by not losing points rather than by winning points. I remember at the time it made me question how the system was set up. It basically was an issue of him not yet losing points for inactivity. But he didn't win anything. If you look at his results in tournaments at that time, when he played, he was consistently placing in the top 4. But never winning the tournaments he entered outright.

So, I may not be sure about the new system. And I think TT is between a rock and a hard place in terms of how much prize money pros can receive from entering tournaments. But I have felt for a while that there are some problems with the current system. Perhaps not big problems. But the current system seems to me to be at least partially broken.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[Suga D]

It would be nice to see the two rating systems work side by side for a few months to see a comparison.

As OP wrote, this is actually already happening, 'cause the new system won't start before january 2018. The list with the new rating system can be viewed here.
http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/
whereas the old one is still active and can be viewed here.
http://www.old.ittf.com/ittf_ranking/

I don't have much to say about the proposed system. I feel like you guys have done a decent job of examining some of the pros and cons of each system.

There is something I do remember that made me question the validity of the current system. Back in 2010 when Ma Long was injured and Timo Boll slid sideways into the top spot it seemed totally off to me. I think Timo was there for a couple of months. But he was injured too. He went into the WR #1 slot by not losing points rather than by winning points. I remember at the time it made me question how the system was set up. It basically was an issue of him not yet losing points for inactivity. But he didn't win anything. If you look at his results in tournaments at that time, when he played, he was consistently placing in the top 4. But never winning the tournaments he entered outright.

So, I may not be sure about the new system. And I think TT is between a rock and a hard place in terms of how much prize money pros can receive from entering tournaments. But I have felt for a while that there are some problems with the current system. Perhaps not big problems. But the current system seems to me to be at least partially broken.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

That might even be right, but interestingly all of a sudden everyone seems to be open for ITTF's arbitrary changes and is even totally cool with their BS.
From older threads about ITTF and their experiments and people's Statements about that i've gotten a different impression.
But as i said: maybe I just see this all too negative. Time will tell.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As OP wrote, this is actually already happening, 'cause the new system won't start before january 2018. The list with the new rating system can be viewed here.
http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/
whereas the old one is still active and can be viewed here.
http://www.old.ittf.com/ittf_ranking/



That might even be right, but interestingly all of a sudden everyone seems to be open for ITTF's arbitrary changes and is even totally cool with their BS.
From older threads about ITTF and their experiments and people's Statements about that i've gotten a different impression.
But as i said: maybe I just see this all too negative. Time will tell.

No, I think you have a great point about what buffoons the ITTF are. I totally agree. I just also think the current rating system started out a little bit off kilter. I don't know what to do to fix it. Perhaps it shouldn't be fixed at all. But, I am not so sure the current system actually does what it is supposed to. Will the new system? Well, if ITTF is involved in trying to "fix" it, probably not. hahaha. But....This may be something that they should try to tinker with.

The first thing to do would be to run all the ITTF big whigs out and get new blood in there.

And I am still waiting for yellow Poly balls.

 

[NextLevel]

http://www.ittf.com/2017/03/27/new-world-ranking-scheme-effective-january-2018/

“One of our main goals is to massively increase the prize money at the ITTF, to also ensure that the top table tennis players are “stars” on the international scene and at the same time to improve the quality of events.
To achieve this, we need to prove to our partners (media and sponsors) and our fans that our events are the best and most important. For them to be the most important, we need best players playing at the events. Our tools need to support that.
At the moment one of our most important tools the “World Ranking” does not support it in the best way, so it was very important to address that. Of course change is not always easy, but if we want our products to become more professional then this is one important change to make.” – Steve Dainton, ITTF Marketing and Commercial Director

 

[zoomtt]

We are currently working on a article to analyze the new ranking system.

It seems that there is a problem with the new ranking test website, as there are some players with wrong ranking calculation. Don't trust that much the current status as it will change when the issue is fixed.. a couple of examples of overrated players are Hung Chieh-Chiang or Cristian Pletea.

Anyway, an important thing here is only the BEST 8 results you have are the ones that count for your ranking. That means that, at some point, playing more championships won't make your results improve, but only improve the positions you had in the previous ones.

As promised, here you have our latest article about the new World Ranking:

https://zoomtt.com/2017/03/31/new-wr-big-changes-bigger-challenges/

as you can read, the ranking seems to predict results a bit worse than the current one. However, that's not the purpose of it...

 

[John18]

Wow!!!
Thanks!!
Very complete and informative article..!!

But wow!!
So with the new WR, for example, Fang Bo will be #23 , Timo Boll # 43
and Cheng I-Ching #2 , Liu Shiwen #6 , Wu Yang #56..!!

It's in the article but the new WR as it will be if used now:

http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/

 

[Baal]

as you can read, the ranking seems to predict results a bit worse than the current one. However, that's not the purpose of it...

Very interesting. I had never thought about how well rankings predict results, but if not that, what is their purpose? That is not a rhetorical question, I actually wonder what the true purpose of a ranking is. I had never really thought about it before.

I think that players should have to maintain a pretty reasonable amount of tournament activity to maintain their ranking, but I have no idea what amount that should be.

 

[NextLevel]

Very interesting. I had never thought about how well rankings predict results, but if not that, what is their purpose? That is not a rhetorical question, I actually wonder what the true purpose of a ranking is. I had never really thought about it before.

I think that players should have to maintain a pretty reasonable amount of tournament activity to maintain their ranking, but I have no idea what amount that should be.

I don't think rankings are supposed to predict results. Rankings should reward performance. I for one have no problem seeing Timo Bollinger drop to #44 or so in the rankings or Zhang Jike fall lower. It is part of making the tour a quality product.

That said, sugard pointed out the differences between TT culture and other sports. The bottom line is that ITTF has to deliver massively on higher price money to make it work.

 

[ttpshot]

Comparing the current and the new rankings system is good for a reference purpose but not so for the effectiveness because players WILL adjust to the new system for the seeding purpose.
Current system is quite poor anyway. As stated in the article, bigger challenge is definitely with making PT more attractive.

 

[loss]

more injured