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Do 'er AGAIN
- Thread starter Der_Echte
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I currently use RED color Tibhar Evolution MX-P for FH and BLACK color Nexy Elpis for BH. I can hit bad-azz shots with FH or BH, but my BH is much more stable and consistent than my FH. That said, my BH rubber is a $20 retail rubber and for years, I did very well with Colestt.com $8 XP2008 that made up the eternal "Der_Echte Special" bat.
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Okay, my post before the videos.
Der_Echte,
I have learned from personal experience on both sides of the coin never to take credit for my opponent's misses and you clearly were off throughout the match and as Carl pointed out, you had explained to me quite a bit about how your serves worked and I haven't been forced to return the favor - well my serves are pretty basic but just vary between spin and no spin in order to get third ball attacks as I really can't rally. My suspicion is that you really were sandbagging in advance of this weekend in case of a potential rated square off at HCTTC. I will not be taken in. On a more serious note, thanks for all the tips and advice and dinner and hopefully, we shall all succeed in making TT more popular in the US.
Ilia_Minkin,
I never knew you went to school here and as you know I know the coach of the TT team at your school. I found your game largely impressive, and I guess that you must have paid a lot of money for that camp and that they did a lot of good work on your forehand. Thanks for reminding me (and I felt this way even before you said it) that until I get more core rotation on my forehand, I lack credibility speaking about the forehand. It has been my latest project on my blog at OOAKforum for those who follow such things. I spoke to Barry after and I understood the purpose of your stroke better. As our match showed, you have to be more patient with it but it will get better as you use it better and incorporate advice from other people.
Carl,
You have improved a lot. Keep up the good work. I will send you a video of a coaching session I did with a friend to show you what the next step for you is based on what I observed. I think with spin variation on your serves and more consistent aggression on your returns, then you will start taking games off me consistently as it's dangerous to rely on passive returns when dealing with a spin-level variation guy like myself. I also think you should tape yourself a few times a month when practicing serves. Watching your serve trajectories from your variations makes it easier to convince yourself of the need to respond to different trajectories differently. It's one thing to read a serve but it can be harder to do the racket angle when the brain is not convinced it needs to - I learned this the hard way. I am a chameleon though so if you get past the serve and serve return game, then you still have to deal with my blocking game and if you deal with that, I hope by that time I will have solved my counterlooping problem. But I can only hope...
Matt,
I have nothing for you. I just wish you had used your backhand more
.
42andbackpains,
You have seen a lot of high level TT. Take it from someone who was once at your level and who has improved - nothing is what it seems from where you are until you improve enough to look back and see it. Der_Echte and Carl will tell you the same thing - there are things they thought they knew, but until they actually did them, they never really understood them. So keep your mind open to what people who have walked a path you want to walk tell you because it will be similar but different from what people who walked that path as children tell you. We all have flaws in our games for various reasons but the way Carl or Der_Echte or myself worked around them can give you a perspective into table tennis that none of your coaches can give you. Der_Echte got some of his from bogeyhunter9, who was training seriously in adulthood when he met Der_Ecthe. Carl got some of his from Edmund Suen, who was training seriously with higher level players when he met Carl. I got most of mine from my coach, who spent many years being told by people he would never break 1600 or 2000 etc. PEople who got good as kids often don't know how to compromise - we do because we have to, and we often do better than anyone else expected in spite of it.
And now, the videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1xHYZmEaJtTz25V3XEoGJAH4vL7H1NUP
Der_Echte,
I have learned from personal experience on both sides of the coin never to take credit for my opponent's misses and you clearly were off throughout the match and as Carl pointed out, you had explained to me quite a bit about how your serves worked and I haven't been forced to return the favor - well my serves are pretty basic but just vary between spin and no spin in order to get third ball attacks as I really can't rally. My suspicion is that you really were sandbagging in advance of this weekend in case of a potential rated square off at HCTTC. I will not be taken in. On a more serious note, thanks for all the tips and advice and dinner and hopefully, we shall all succeed in making TT more popular in the US.
Ilia_Minkin,
I never knew you went to school here and as you know I know the coach of the TT team at your school. I found your game largely impressive, and I guess that you must have paid a lot of money for that camp and that they did a lot of good work on your forehand. Thanks for reminding me (and I felt this way even before you said it) that until I get more core rotation on my forehand, I lack credibility speaking about the forehand. It has been my latest project on my blog at OOAKforum for those who follow such things. I spoke to Barry after and I understood the purpose of your stroke better. As our match showed, you have to be more patient with it but it will get better as you use it better and incorporate advice from other people.
Carl,
You have improved a lot. Keep up the good work. I will send you a video of a coaching session I did with a friend to show you what the next step for you is based on what I observed. I think with spin variation on your serves and more consistent aggression on your returns, then you will start taking games off me consistently as it's dangerous to rely on passive returns when dealing with a spin-level variation guy like myself. I also think you should tape yourself a few times a month when practicing serves. Watching your serve trajectories from your variations makes it easier to convince yourself of the need to respond to different trajectories differently. It's one thing to read a serve but it can be harder to do the racket angle when the brain is not convinced it needs to - I learned this the hard way. I am a chameleon though so if you get past the serve and serve return game, then you still have to deal with my blocking game and if you deal with that, I hope by that time I will have solved my counterlooping problem. But I can only hope...
Matt,
I have nothing for you. I just wish you had used your backhand more
.42andbackpains,
You have seen a lot of high level TT. Take it from someone who was once at your level and who has improved - nothing is what it seems from where you are until you improve enough to look back and see it. Der_Echte and Carl will tell you the same thing - there are things they thought they knew, but until they actually did them, they never really understood them. So keep your mind open to what people who have walked a path you want to walk tell you because it will be similar but different from what people who walked that path as children tell you. We all have flaws in our games for various reasons but the way Carl or Der_Echte or myself worked around them can give you a perspective into table tennis that none of your coaches can give you. Der_Echte got some of his from bogeyhunter9, who was training seriously in adulthood when he met Der_Ecthe. Carl got some of his from Edmund Suen, who was training seriously with higher level players when he met Carl. I got most of mine from my coach, who spent many years being told by people he would never break 1600 or 2000 etc. PEople who got good as kids often don't know how to compromise - we do because we have to, and we often do better than anyone else expected in spite of it.
And now, the videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1xHYZmEaJtTz25V3XEoGJAH4vL7H1NUP
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I wasn't sandbagging. Next Level CANED me, but I had it coming. I was sitting down too long and suddenly played colder than a ice cube and NL was match ready already at table 30 minutes. I had previously played the other gent who if I played serious, I would win 11-1 or if I tried to be easy, would lose. He was awkward and playing him before you was the wrong to be ready for you. You are also a considerably higher rated player than me, even though we and Carl and everyone feels our playing levels are pretty close to each other. I got pretty much what I wanted from my serves, sure I didn't get a lot of outright winners but I wasn't looking for them. I swung and MISSED on at least 6-10 balls that match. Too bad this sport isn't like baseball and you get three swings.
Maybe if we play in HCTTC Tourney it will be at least an entertaining and closely matched play like we had at NYISC last time with 42 n Back Painz. You coulda won that match 3-0 also.
On a different note, even though I drove the 4+ hrs to get there, did all that TT fun and drove all that way back and did all my house stuff, I went to elite league at NOVATTC again. last week I got 2nd with a 5-1 record. Got by two 2000-2050 player 3-0 one is conventional two winger, the other an OX LP on BH with a FH attack, retriever at distance, and BH OX attacker at table if you give underspin... a triple threat. for real. The kind of player NL doesn't like to face with a win on his mind.
This week, 2 other 2200+ players showed up, naturally I went 1-3 and 0-3 vs them, but vs Nam, a 2200+ two winger monster, score was something like -14, 8, -9, -8 or something like that, it was competitive. I defeated the 2000+ OX LP attacking dude, but his Asian clone, a 2200+ with an even meaner FH attack and better retrieving skills and no LP OX close to table attack... Got by him 3-1 somehow fought it out. That guy is way better than me. What got me by was playing smart, attacking with spin then speed and hookshot for winners.
Everyone, at the end of the LYTTC session, NL and I hit around for another 20 minutes or so. We worked on a few things, the last one was how to deal with a loop hit right at you or a loop to your FH at distance. We talked about how to impact teh ball on the side with a soft hand and control it in with hookshot. OR at distance, rip right through it impacting it on the side and give it extreme bend side kick... or SLOW IT DOWN with softer hand, so you get the bend in the air just over net it lands extreme angle well past corner and is kicking away... a real mean shot to pull outta your tail when you need it.
NL (rightfully) accuses me of withholding good advice or tips until he turns off the camera and has to rely on his memory for recording it for future use. Somehow, we never get into a situation to discuss stuff on our minds in a setting that brings that kind of stuff out until all our play is done and we are goofing around or sharing stuff, so that would be natural to bring out those ideas right when we discuss situations needing them.
Maybe if we play in HCTTC Tourney it will be at least an entertaining and closely matched play like we had at NYISC last time with 42 n Back Painz. You coulda won that match 3-0 also.
On a different note, even though I drove the 4+ hrs to get there, did all that TT fun and drove all that way back and did all my house stuff, I went to elite league at NOVATTC again. last week I got 2nd with a 5-1 record. Got by two 2000-2050 player 3-0 one is conventional two winger, the other an OX LP on BH with a FH attack, retriever at distance, and BH OX attacker at table if you give underspin... a triple threat. for real. The kind of player NL doesn't like to face with a win on his mind.
This week, 2 other 2200+ players showed up, naturally I went 1-3 and 0-3 vs them, but vs Nam, a 2200+ two winger monster, score was something like -14, 8, -9, -8 or something like that, it was competitive. I defeated the 2000+ OX LP attacking dude, but his Asian clone, a 2200+ with an even meaner FH attack and better retrieving skills and no LP OX close to table attack... Got by him 3-1 somehow fought it out. That guy is way better than me. What got me by was playing smart, attacking with spin then speed and hookshot for winners.
Everyone, at the end of the LYTTC session, NL and I hit around for another 20 minutes or so. We worked on a few things, the last one was how to deal with a loop hit right at you or a loop to your FH at distance. We talked about how to impact teh ball on the side with a soft hand and control it in with hookshot. OR at distance, rip right through it impacting it on the side and give it extreme bend side kick... or SLOW IT DOWN with softer hand, so you get the bend in the air just over net it lands extreme angle well past corner and is kicking away... a real mean shot to pull outta your tail when you need it.
NL (rightfully) accuses me of withholding good advice or tips until he turns off the camera and has to rely on his memory for recording it for future use. Somehow, we never get into a situation to discuss stuff on our minds in a setting that brings that kind of stuff out until all our play is done and we are goofing around or sharing stuff, so that would be natural to bring out those ideas right when we discuss situations needing them.
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Saw 'em. Thanks. The ball don't lie. I sucked an egg and NL gave me PUNTA.
Ask me privately about the two hunters who got caught poaching in Africa by the tribe Chief and were given a choice of Death or PUNTA for their punishment. NL issued me PUNTA punishment. The ball don't lie. I had it coming. It isn't teh end of the world. I did really well the next day in league, so I know I didn't suddenly drop 500 points of level and suck epically.
Ask me privately about the two hunters who got caught poaching in Africa by the tribe Chief and were given a choice of Death or PUNTA for their punishment. NL issued me PUNTA punishment. The ball don't lie. I had it coming. It isn't teh end of the world. I did really well the next day in league, so I know I didn't suddenly drop 500 points of level and suck epically.
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@NextLevel : Thanks a lot for the videos .
I pretty much took a sneak peek at all of them and it was exciting to see you all play. Der Echte kept up the entertainment meter up through out with his Pingpong Hooliganism , even when he was huffing and puffing about his forehand, it was a sight for sore eyes. I guess he ran out of his mojo when he snuck that winner past Matt in the doubles. Boy we need action replay and a thread of its on own just for that shot !! . I would give a thousand bucks for his serves and backhand !
Loved Carl's "Michael Lander"-esque pause before his serve and ofcourse his serves , loved how Next Level has got a little bit of Samsonov mixed with Wang Hao's Zedi mind trick going !!
In summary You guys rocked big time !!
I wish I was on the other coast
I pretty much took a sneak peek at all of them and it was exciting to see you all play. Der Echte kept up the entertainment meter up through out with his Pingpong Hooliganism
, even when he was huffing and puffing about his forehand, it was a sight for sore eyes. I guess he ran out of his mojo when he snuck that winner past Matt in the doubles. Boy we need action replay and a thread of its on own just for that shot !! . I would give a thousand bucks for his serves and backhand ! Loved Carl's "Michael Lander"-esque pause before his serve and ofcourse his serves , loved how Next Level has got a little bit of Samsonov mixed with Wang Hao's Zedi mind trick going !!
In summary You guys rocked big time !!
I wish I was on the other coast
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I might have ran outta mojo right before I played NL for the last match of the session, but I was never out of breath, I can run around the court more than some 18yr olds and still fight. I certainly do huff and puff about missing a shot though, I am never afraid to show what I think.
You shoulda seen some of the balls I got to in leaue today, I had jokers falling off their seats.
We got Ilia involved in doubles right away, like the first match I think.
You shoulda seen some of the balls I got to in leaue today, I had jokers falling off their seats.
We got Ilia involved in doubles right away, like the first match I think.
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Oh! I used the wrong adjective man, I meant your show of frustration when you were missing
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Haha Frustration, you are too diplomatic, I was pissed off enough to rip apart a steel girder and chew it... each time.
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Yes , what I said in my mind was pissing and moaning and cursing
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And Matt might have lost his job and coach at the same time
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Spin and more spin.
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I looked for my around the net and realized it is in the match where you and I were playing against Matt and Ilia. Trouble is, you can't see the shot because Matt is setting up to receive it and he is between me and the camera. Still was a good shot. It is at about 11:50 of the match UpSideDownCarl/NextLevel vs Matt Hetherington/Illia_Minkin.
Sounds good. And yeah, you are right. I lose so many points by pushing and guys the level of you or Der_Echte just rip those giving me no chance to even get into a rally with you.
Must be more aggressive on my returns. Varying my serves more has always been an issue. I get farther into a match and when what I am doing isn't quite working I get less creative. I wish I could tape myself. I would do it all the time. Every time I see myself play, I see things I need to work on.
Today I got on a robot for the first time in soooooo long. It will help me fix my floppy left arm and my dropped wrist if I can get on a robot every so often. Part of how I fixed my forehand was actually using my sister's robot once a week for months. I would not have been able to do it without Edmund. But, it also would not have happened without the robot.
Serve receive, I really need to work on it. Big time. Handling what higher level players do to my serves, I also need to deal with that.
Thanks. I had a great time.
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One thing I did that Carl didn't see me do last meetup was FH flip serves. I still do not flip FH serves worth a crap, but sometimes I get a wild hair up there and go for it.
To go along with the importance of hand pressure, you can see in a lot of my at the table blocks, I had a soft hand to make the ball do what it did, but when Carl drove the ball with power right at my body, I used a very firm grip pressure and only a one inch stroke to make a very fast return. That stuff is sudden and very effective, no one is really expecting the ball to come smoking back from what looks like a soft block. Hand pressure at impact changes everything.
To go along with the importance of hand pressure, you can see in a lot of my at the table blocks, I had a soft hand to make the ball do what it did, but when Carl drove the ball with power right at my body, I used a very firm grip pressure and only a one inch stroke to make a very fast return. That stuff is sudden and very effective, no one is really expecting the ball to come smoking back from what looks like a soft block. Hand pressure at impact changes everything.
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Next time, I will secretly leave the camera on all the time and see what DerEchte does...
As for the comments about my issues with OX pips players, anyone can read between the lines and see that DerEchte plays 2000 pips players like he is a 2200 player. I play all styles like I am a 2000 player. No shame in that!
And for people who don't know, DerEchte has one of the heaviest pure topspin looping motions that you will ever see from a true amateur table tennis player. Don't try to block that thing without reinforcements or you will just be playing popup pingpong.
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Next Level is easily more solid and stable in his level vs all the various styles than I am and has more ability to trouble higher rated players than I do. He does play a little less strongly vs a few styles or players, but overall, what you see is what you get. Myself, I tend to hit the turbo button vs players who do not rush me or pressure me... but doesn't everyone do better when not under pressure or hurried?
Since I have time and am much better vs underspin, I relish playing vs defenders. Those defenders with a real good attack on both wings are true punishers vs the average 2x inverted player, but I tend to get the job done more than not, even if they are one level better than me. My results in league and tourneys vs the defensive types shows. If any of you see me play vs a defender you will know. I don't know if anyone on this forum has seen me play vs a 1900-2100 rated OX LP player and I don't have video evidence. I tore up Eric Lee kid LP sponge chopper with a real aggressive good FH attack rated 1920s so bad in a tourney I think I hurt hiz father's feelings. I think hiz father chewed him out for losing to a fat, over-aged 220 lb 1700s rated joker. (I was really rated in 1700s before that tourney. It was after a few bad tourneys not playing a winter and injured, but my injury got better and I was in practice by then, but no tourney to catch up the rating)
As for the heaviest spin... who knows, but I certainly have a general policy of spinning extreme heavy first and asking questions later.
LP and most defensive (or even blockers/counter-driver type) opponents generally like it when a player tries to spin. They want spin to give them a full range of options to manipulate the ball and want you to try to overpower a heavy underspin return. It is said not to serve heavy spin to pips, but it is a foundation, that makes your no spin / light spin variations effective to give you clear cut attacking chances to smash or powerloop away from opponent to demoralize him.
Since I have time and am much better vs underspin, I relish playing vs defenders. Those defenders with a real good attack on both wings are true punishers vs the average 2x inverted player, but I tend to get the job done more than not, even if they are one level better than me. My results in league and tourneys vs the defensive types shows. If any of you see me play vs a defender you will know. I don't know if anyone on this forum has seen me play vs a 1900-2100 rated OX LP player and I don't have video evidence. I tore up Eric Lee kid LP sponge chopper with a real aggressive good FH attack rated 1920s so bad in a tourney I think I hurt hiz father's feelings. I think hiz father chewed him out for losing to a fat, over-aged 220 lb 1700s rated joker. (I was really rated in 1700s before that tourney. It was after a few bad tourneys not playing a winter and injured, but my injury got better and I was in practice by then, but no tourney to catch up the rating)
As for the heaviest spin... who knows, but I certainly have a general policy of spinning extreme heavy first and asking questions later.
LP and most defensive (or even blockers/counter-driver type) opponents generally like it when a player tries to spin. They want spin to give them a full range of options to manipulate the ball and want you to try to overpower a heavy underspin return. It is said not to serve heavy spin to pips, but it is a foundation, that makes your no spin / light spin variations effective to give you clear cut attacking chances to smash or powerloop away from opponent to demoralize him.
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No problem, thanks for the videos and an interesting match. Barry is the real powerhouse when it comes to fixing crappy forehands. I've learned so much from him, and starting from today I'm going to rebuild my FH loop almost from scratch. Maybe I will write something about it later.
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As Der_Echte would say, "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt!" Rebuilding a forehand is a painful process. But sometimes it is sooooo useful. I did a little work on fixing a few kinks in my FH (floppy left arm, hanging hook shot wrist) and BH (crank and spin) yesterday with a robot. So much more work to do. All for the LULZ!
Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
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