Does Equipment Matter: Pro vs. Pro

[zeio]

Well, Berndt could be doing a "poor job" on purpose. After the previous exchange, it got me thinking perhaps getting people to hate hardbat has been his intention after all. One could never know.

Whatever the case, after some readings, I feel that Berndt's position actually gives some great insights into why the US fell totally out of the picture after modern table tennis was born. Unlike the European countries, the US never really made a comeback, despite the effort of Seemiller with his unique grip. Reisman in particular could be the one to blame for the piss-poor image of modern table tennis in the US, even though it was never good to start with.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/History/History-of-USATT/Volume-I/Chapter-2

Table Tennis has often been considered a predominately "poor man’s" sport, its players notoriously "cheap." It’s also been considered a "Minority" sport in the U.S., and for many years a "Jewish" sport.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-T...y-Countdown-to-Change-in-the-ITTFs-Presidency

“Table tennis, once known as ping pong, was considered a ‘Jewish sport’ until the advent of the Chinese and Japanese world champions in the 1950’s. The first men’s world singles and doubles champion, Dr. Roland Jacobi of Hungary, was Jewish and he was succeeded by a long list of co-religionists. Jewish pre-eminence in the sport continues today in the United States.”

For the curious souls, there is a thread on Mytt on modern table tennis, where Berndt "contributed" to the best of his knowledge. I think he has even learned a thing or two about modern table tennis.

 

[zeio]

As for cheating, oh yea, players cheated in the days of hardbat, once you read up on the rule changes since the 1st WTTC in 1926 when the ITTF was formed.

The 1st change that suggests unfair gain of advantage through equipment was made in 1927.

Rules Committee tasked to draw up: 1 Code of regulations for open tournaments, defining powers of umpires and referees and scope of appeal from their decisions, prohibiting wearing of light-coloured clothing and use of light-coloured or shiny rackets.

Multiple changes were needed for the finger spin.

1931-32

Artificial aids (eg rubber bands) and deformation of ball to enhance finger-spin in service banned.

1936-37

Experimental introduction of ban on finger-spin in service net.

1946-47

Equipment dimensions to be primarily in metric units, with Imperial equivalents in brackets. Ball must be white and not shiny and racket must not be light-coloured or shiny. Experimental service Law requiring free hand to be open and flat, with fingers strainght and extended and thumb free.

1947-48

Experimental service Law confirmed. Ball in service must be projected and not dropped.

Light-coloured clothing banned.

1949-50

White clothing prohibited in World Championships but allowed in international matches by agreement of participants.

1950-51

Ball in service to be projected without spin, vertically upwards, and to be struck behind end line and within imaginary extension of side lines.

1954-55

"Vertically" deleted from service Law.

1956-57

Options for racket standardisation circulated to Associations.

1957-59

Umpire may give one warning for hidden service or service of doubtful legality.

Racket standardisation by thickness of covering - 2mm pimpled ruberr, 4mm sandwich rubber.

 

[Baal]

Well, Berndt could be doing a "poor job" on purpose. After the previous exchange, it got me thinking perhaps getting people to hate hardbat has been his intention after all. One could never know.

Whatever the case, after some readings, I feel that Berndt's position actually gives some great insights into why the US fell totally out of the picture after modern table tennis was born. Unlike the European countries, the US never really made a comeback, despite the effort of Seemiller with his unique grip. Reisman in particular could be the one to blame for the piss-poor image of modern table tennis in the US, even though it was never good to start with.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/History/History-of-USATT/Volume-I/Chapter-2


https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-T...y-Countdown-to-Change-in-the-ITTFs-Presidency


For the curious souls, there is a thread on Mytt on modern table tennis, where Berndt "contributed" to the best of his knowledge. I think he has even learned a thing or two about modern table tennis.

That was the most interesting MyTT thread in years. Berndt did make one or two civil contributions, identifying a Japanese player in a fascinating training video. But then later he tried to derail the thread and had to be warned.

Berndt trolls most of the time. It is how he gets enjoyment. He is not trying to convince anyone of anything. He is trying to get a response. He has been doing it for years on muliple forums and never changes. Most of the rest of the time he is making internet noise for himself with hideous verses and such but one can skip over those. He does not have many themes to his writings.

 

[Baal]

Unlike NL, Berndt did not make me hate hsrdbat. It was guys like him circa 1972 who made me hate it. Loathe it.

Which is why the appearance of Berndt and his One Infinitely Repeating Theme really amazed me. I seriously thought I had heard the last of that shyte about the time I started college and here it was again! It was like being locked in a room and forced to listen to The Captain and Tennille or something.

That way lies madness.

But I suppose spme people like The Captain and Tenille. Some people at MyTT profess to like his posting. So I prevailed upon Alex Li to let him back. And he was unbanned. But with a leash so short it could be described as monomolecular.

 

[zeio]

Whereas the people from the former Eastern Bloc have chosen to reject the past, Reisman et al. from the days of hardbat have chosen to reject the future.

 

[berndtjgmann]

As for cheating, oh yea, players cheated in the days of hardbat, once you read up on the rule changes since the 1st WTTC in 1926 when the ITTF was formed.

The 1st change that suggests unfair gain of advantage through equipment was made in 1927.



Multiple changes were needed for the finger spin.

1931-32


1936-37


1946-47


1947-48



1949-50


1950-51


1954-55


1956-57


1957-59

There is, unfortunately, little visual evidence and not much written documentation of regulation and practices during the era when hard rubber rackets were the choice of competitors from league and club competitors to internationals. It has been a while, but I have myself read both the sources you cite from Boggan's compendium and Ms. Cioroslan.

Re the sources you cite regarding light colored clothing, deformation of ball when executing a finger-spin service, usage of shiny balls, serving behind the end line (of the table) and within (imaginary extension) of side lines, racket not light colored or shiny (the oft mentioned [by me] Rule 4) and light colored clothing (against Barna in 1949, Reisman told me that he wore a navy blue shirt with a USTTA patch on the left side and grey gabardine trousers), Barna a dark-colored shirt and (probably) grey trousers as well, "vertically" deleted from the service law, and warning for hidden services or services of doubtful legality, could you please give the names of the sources from which you derived this information?

Sol Schiff and Jimmy McClure were possibly the two foremost exponents of finger- and knucklespin services. After taking their own sweet time, first the USTTA then the ITTF banned them. Other internationals did not use them, possibly (I don't know, and they're all dead) because they couldn't execute them effectively or considered them unsportsmanlike (IMO rightly; while a product of human ingenuity, they threatened to make a mockery out of tt).

Were the internationals of the hard rubber eras of the '30s and mid-'40s to 'mid-'50s to a man and woman always saintly in their behavior? No, and I have never written that they were. But the sport, though then as you cite and as I have cited poorly served and poorly regulated by its parent organization was fairer, better balanced and at least as sportsman- and sportswomanlike if not more so than it is today. That illegal serving goes on, despite very seldom being called by qualified umpires whose purpose, among other purposes, is to do just that, is not deniable. That international level players and some amateurs boost their rubbers with various brands of boosting oils, some of those rubbers already factory boosted, is also undeniable.

 

[hillwalker]

prohibiting wearing of light-coloured clothing and use of light-coloured or shiny rackets.

This is actually my theory as to why Chinese players started using red rubber on the backhand and black on the forehand. The red rubber in front of a red shirt is slightly harder to see, and the black rubber in front of a darker background is slightly harder to see.

Of course, they also wear black shirts a lot, so this is probably not really true haha.

 

[Lightzy]

May I ask if English is your 1st language?

If not, I could understand. Otherwise, I have trouble understanding why you could miss what I was bitching about. Perhaps you're one of those unsuspecting members Carl mentioned.

Besides, the only comment I got there reinforces what Bobrow said. Someone who hates it enough to even care to leave a swearing comment, still better than those who don't simply because they couldn't care less.

English is not my first language but I know it well enough.
I didn't actually read through all the bullshit in this thread, I don't care about todgers arguing about the 40s, and I don't care what you're bitching about either. But it's difficult to comment on a video in a language you don't speak.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think these two posts really get to the heart of the subject.

Not just that, but it shows how dishonest his selective use of the word 'doctoring' is.....

It's just another excuse to belittle fans of the modern game rather than a substantive point.

Berndt trolls most of the time. It is how he gets enjoyment. He is not trying to convince anyone of anything. He is trying to get a response. He has been doing it for years on muliple forums and never changes. Most of the rest of the time he is making internet noise for himself with hideous verses and such but one can skip over those. He does not have many themes to his writings.

And so I will decide post by post if what he has written needs to get pulled. And at a certain point I will decide whether I feel his presence on the forum is useful or not.

I do think Zeio’s perspective that bad press shows more interest than none at all is interesting. But someone whose main purpose for posting is that they enjoy making other people upset....well, here....here are two simple videos on the subject:

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[perham]

I think these two posts really get to the heart of the subject.





And so I will decide post by post if what he has written needs to get pulled. And at a certain point I will decide whether I feel his presence on the forum is useful or not.

I do think Zeio’s perspective that bad press shows more interest than none at all is interesting. But someone whose main purpose for posting is that they enjoy making other people upset....well, here....here are two simple videos on the subject:

https://youtu.be/6Zxy_dScjsM

https://youtu.be/5gqHTlBp6iY


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Sometimes people get lonely, and just want a bit of attention. Maybe a little bit of trolling should be allowed as a public service? Who knows what else a troll would do if they don't get their daily dose of attention.

 

[Baal]

Sometimes people get lonely, and just want a bit of attention. Maybe a little bit of trolling should be allowed as a public service? Who knows what else a troll would do if they don't get their daily dose of attention.

My thoughts exactly.

In my mind there are three minds of trolls
. 1. Lonely people killing time.

2. Monomaniacal people with zero social skills to the point of a personality disorder.

3. And sadists with dark tetrad traits.

Some people could be a bit of more than one. Type 3 has to disappear immediately upon discovery. AgentHex. Sebas-Aguirre. The other two can be managed sometimes.

 

[talbon]

My theory is that trolls target mostly dumb people.

They may troll out of boredom, mischief, because they are in a bad mood, in a good mood, for thousands of other reasons, or just because.

Clearly trolling targets our dumb side. Often the trolling is obvious. Either the person is an absolute moron, or they are trolling. You don't want to pick an argument with a moron, because they are morons. Arguing with a moron is generally a bad idea. Trolling a moron is ok. It might save you from a throat cancer. It's simple hygiene. Once in a while you have to walk all over morons so that you don't needlessly increase your odds of dying from a rectal cancer 5 years from now by swallowing an unhealthy dose of irritation a day.

You don't want to pick an argument with a troll either. Whatever they say is a red herring. You can play along, you can ignore them, counter troll them, you can even talk shit to them (they are little more than fictional characters, so nothing wrong with that... you might even get a rise out of the person behind!) or ban them. But arguing, meh. If you're caught arguing, you were probably not at your finest. We are all dumb at times, it's no biggie and we don't need excuses for that.

To me those videos linked above about what is trolling and blah blah, is another fine example of trolling. It's clearly either meant to annoy trolls by how stupid it is, or just blissfully stupid. The only thing missing from that ocean of pedantry is a study showing that trolls have on average a very, very small... table tennis rating. Just a suggestion for a future, better video.

 

[Lightzy]

For me, the only definition of troll is someone who writes out of topic or writes about another person instead of about the topic, more specifically

 

[berndtjgmann]

Other than a Scandinavian lightening fearing cave and remote mountain dwelling fearsome grotesque creature, that's not a half bad working definition with regards to cyberspace, Lightzy, and would apply to many posters to many forums, including myself and at least two moderators to table tennis forums that I can think of,

 

[tropical]

The "troll" labeling has been used like a weapon, kind of conveniently throughout this TTD forum. I was once called troll by someone who disagreed with my opinions. Therefore, I would treat the troll labeling very carefully. To be honest I find the discussion here is very interesting from all sides. We are all adults here so let's agree to disagree.

 

[phillypong]

Wow , i am amazed i even read this post, its seriously boring

 

[Baal]

The "troll" labeling has been used like a weapon, kind of conveniently throughout this TTD forum. I was once called troll by someone who disagreed with my opinions. Therefore, I would treat the troll labeling very carefully. To be honest I find the discussion here is very interesting from all sides. We are all adults here so let's agree to disagree.

Very true. The accuracy of such a label can only be ascertained over time. Tropical, I don't know what some have said, but you are not a troll. You post comments on a wide range of subjects, including (these are just some that I remember) the mechanics of table tennis equipment, technical aspects of different styles of play, the overall situation when CNT players boycotted events and the response of the authorities to that, and some of what the immigrant experience in America is alike, as well as what it was like to live in an authoritarian country. While you have had some disagreements with other members (including me) you defend yourself with dignity and as far as I can tell have never intentionally derailed a thread.

In very marked contrast, there are members who have a long history on multiple forums of ---- well, not doing that.

For example, AgentHEX entered a thread about 99% of the time with the intention of triggering a flame war, usually on something distinctly removed the the original topic of the thread. He got banned on three different forums (within a year). Sebas-Aguirre periodically comes back to one or the other English language forums. His trolling is so characteristic that mods can detect him within a week or so.

 

[Baal]

For me, the only definition of troll is someone who writes out of topic or writes about another person instead of about the topic, more specifically

Here is the standard definition (from Wikipedia):

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[SUP][1][/SUP] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[SUP][2][/SUP] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[SUP][3][/SUP] often for the troll's amusement.

Here are some others I have found in various places:

An Internet troll is someone who comes into a discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, in fact, it seems like there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved.

An Internet Troll is a colloquial expression used to define an online user who uses Information and Communications Technology (ICT) to purposely and actively provoke, defame, anger, tease, flame, or incite other online users. More often than not, the Internet Troll does not know the target recipient(s) of their vitriolic statements and behaviors. Internet Trolls regularly appear in all forms of online mediums ranging from online video gaming gatherings to chatroom and forum discussions.

They come in many types, including for example the Agenda Troll:
“Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own, often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat.”

 

[NextLevel]

AgentHex argued that there was no reason to believe that the complaints about the cellulose acetate plastic balls being less consistent and durable than celluloid and other plastic balls. That it was mostly inferior players that believed this and continued to argue this. I won't comment on this again but I just wanted to give an idea of the kinds of things he used to argue about and pretend he was arguing in good faith. I would get myself all worked up explaining that I had broken a ball per hour in training using those balls and sharing video of my doing so.

Anyways, that aside, anyone can troll and anyone can be labelled a troll. I remember that a less active moderator at myTT admitted to being a troll at a point in his past.

A common trait I find with most trolls is that they want to keep their game as hidden as possible. Not saying that doing so makes one a troll but that it Is common for trolls to repeatedly promise videos of themselves playing but never deliver. Promise to meet other members but always show up late or miss the scheduled meetings.

The reason is because it is harder to be sadistic and present multiple images of your game when your game is a known quantity. You can always be put back in your place when you make claims about the game that do not jive with your level of experience.

The people who are open to meeting others on the forum and know that they will do so rarely get into repeated conflicts. They know they can only do so much before being held accountable for being rude to other civilized people.

 

[Lightzy]

That definition sucks Baal. Tell you why: It's the definitions that trolls and tyrants use in order to call normal people trolls.
It's entirely subjective who sows discord or starts quarrels or whatever. This is why most of the time if a conservative nowdays writes some conservative viewpoint on a leftist board he's immediately called a troll and banned, for example.


The best definition is what I said, which is, when someone posts out of topic, and most especially, when someone posts about another poster instead of about the topic being discussed.
In my opinion, if someone starts discussing the character of someone else rather than the topic of discussion, they should get a warning and then a ban. But that's just me.