Does Ma Long have an old school style?

[rainneverever]

Baal, KLH and M Lin were very good at the chop block you mentioned and ML is the only one left on CNT to use this technique during the match nowadays (I am not sure if ML literally learned this technique from KLH as KLH was ML's coach for a short period of time before he went to women's team). The technique is old-school but can also be called classic. Back to my point, ML built up his techniques in the era before glue ban and many techniques are not popular among younger generations, which makes him look old-school.

 

[Baal]

I don't buy into the idea that being BH-dominant is more "new-school" than what Ma Long does, but I guess some people might see it that way. He is older than FZD, so yes, he was 18 years old when they banned speed glue.

It is also true that a lot of what he does has been seen before (for example his chop blocking which I mentioned; he hit some insanely good ones in the 7th game of his WTTC victory over FZD). I still think it pays to watch ML closely because his forehand is so impressive sometimes people get hypnotized by it, but what impresses me the more I watch him is all the little stuff he can do flawlessly. Sometimes his heavy BH pushes cross court are so effective, and it is amazing that such a simple shot in his hands can set up so many other things he can do.

One other thing. If you are considering ML and FZD, they have very different body shapes and I would suggest that this factor, more than 'era' they learned, affects how they have to play.

 

[Dominikk85]

Btw wasn't the new ball supposedly bad for serves and the short game and good for top spinning the return?

So it is quite amazing that he can still dominate with mostly pushing the return.

 

[rainneverever]

Baal, the glue ban was after 2008 Beijing OG when ML was 20. WLQ and M Lin gradually declined after the glue ban which suggested an end of FH dominance era.

ttmonster, it is your freedom to conclude ZJK beat ML mentally in GSs even without playing with him while it is also my freedom to argue against you based on the fact that they played each other only twice in GSs and one won 4-3 and one won 4-0.

One can not compare A and B by looking at how A played with C and how B played C because the techniques and tactics of A that work on C may not work on B. As Wu Jingping analyzed who studied ML and ZJK for years for WH and for FZD, ML usually used FH (drop shot or long push) to receive WH and ZJK's serves. ML's FH receiving worked for ZJK's serves and made to short games or FH-FH rallies; but his FH receiving did not work for WH's serves and WH usually took the initiative to attack ML's BH. On the other hand, ZJK used BH to recieve WH's serves and made to BH-BH rallies.
As for spins, ML relies more on frictions than hitting. He is known to be lack of power since teenager and keeps on muscle building after the ball change otherwise he would have been outcompeted.

 

[ttmonster]

I already said that you are premeditating the conclusion , for all the big tournaments , it was very visible that Ma Long would choke .. now he has gotten over it but it took him a long time given his natural talents , even LGL had to give him a few drinks to relax before olympics , so even the coaches acknowledge this short coming ... the point is ZJK got there and he did not ... now later on the opposite happened ... its nothing to take away from either of their achievements but its generally acknowledged that Ma Long took a hell lot of time to get over his mental weakness ...

... just to understand because no body can generate spin from hitting , what what your reasoning for the deduction that ML was affected more by Plastic ball change , that he uses more friction ... as in he uses topsheet more to generate spin and ZJK uses sponge , now that is ridiculous , there is a limit to the amount of spin you can generate spin from topsheet, otherwise they would not have invented the sponge in the first place ... have heard so many arguments till now but that definitely is a new one ... mindblowing stuff !

Baal, the glue ban was after 2008 Beijing OG when ML was 20. WLQ and M Lin gradually declined after the glue ban which suggested an end of FH dominance era.

ttmonster, it is your freedom to conclude ZJK beat ML mentally in GSs even without playing with him while it is also my freedom to argue against you based on the fact that they played each other only twice in GSs and one won 4-3 and one won 4-0.

One can not compare A and B by looking at how A played with C and how B played C because the techniques and tactics of A that work on C may not work on B. As Wu Jingping analyzed who studied ML and ZJK for years for WH and for FZD, ML usually used FH (drop shot or long push) to receive WH and ZJK's serves. ML's FH receiving worked for ZJK's serves and made to short games or FH-FH rallies; but his FH receiving did not work for WH's serves and WH usually took the initiative to attack ML's BH. On the other hand, ZJK used BH to recieve WH's serves and made to BH-BH rallies.
As for spins, ML relies more on frictions than hitting. He is known to be lack of power since teenager and keeps on muscle building after the ball change otherwise he would have been outcompeted.

 

[rainneverever]

I don't want to argue with someone who do not understand basic physics. Don't you even know gravity can make the ball spin?

 

[ttmonster]

true , I don't understand basic physics ... I thought in this context gravity was a supposed to create translational motion not rotational motion ... but I guess its okay to live in world where only gravity makes the earth spin ...

I don't want to argue with someone who do not understand basic physics. Don't you even know gravity can make the ball spin?

 

[blue_codex]

I would agree that Ma Long is the last of the old guard re: WLQ, ML, WH. His career lasted longer in part because he was just so young when he joined the CNT. Therefore, his style will echo the previous generation's philosophy of FH > all.

ML did broaden his game since then, but I'd say that how his FH-orientation came about is in part due to that pedigree. ZJK was very refreshing in that he was the first person from that era do the step-around BH. I remember this vividly before he came up and started dominating WH. Fun fact - he was a frequent practice partner to WH and that definitely played a part in ZJK's success against him.

Back to Ma Long, he's a swiss army knife, but we have to concede that he is not as strong on the BH as ZJK and FZD. From there, I do think that the shot in vogue is the BH flick and does characterize a shift in the game. Boll was a reknowned BH player and Ovtcharov also came to prominence in that time, but neither of them affected tournament play and tactics like ZJK's BH flick.

In that sense, yes ML's game is more "old-school", but conclusively, I'd say only by half a generation.

 

[TTFrenzy]

li xiaodong described both 3 players more accurate than any other coach or CNT player who expressed his opinion.

ML= combination fighter FZD ZJK = powerplayers

ML can do everything well and it does not matter in the end if he doesnt have the same power close to the table like the other two. Footwork wise, sidestepping is more effective in the 40mm era and after so ZJK FZD have an edge when the rally is about power play, in the end ML managed to beat both of them because of his versatility and constant problem solving ability. ZJK himself described him as a deep thinker both as a compliment and as a "negative" attribute especially when ML thinks/worries too much about the game.

In the end you cant compare different attributes, they are just different. ML does not have the banana flick as a main weapon,nor the versatility with it that WH or ZJK have showed in the receiving aspect of the game

I think people are overanalyzing too much, the wttc 2017 was eventually a nerve battle after everything else has been put to the game and it boiled down to 3-3 10-10. FZD missed 2 good chances @ 9-7 with his 2 serves, ML risked more in the end and it paid off, simple as that

It would be great to see an analysis from ttzoom about how many rallies FZD won by pure power and ML by placement/traps and 3rd 4th ball attacks

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I don't want to argue with someone

... I thought in this context gravity was a supposed to create translational motion not rotational motion ...

I am glad you guys have agreed to disagree without continuing the debate.

I do think you guys are talking about two different things. And from a certain perspective, each of you has a point.

Let's just move on. But understand, you may not be hearing each other. No harm. But no more on the subject.

Thanks.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[Baal]

Well ok. The "old school", then, still works-- apparently. So if he is a further development of WLQ, which I can accept, it still works.

(For some reason I was thinking 2008 was 10 years ago). Dumb

 

[Baal]

li xiaodong described both 3 players more accurate than any other coach or CNT player who expressed his opinion.

ML= combination fighter FZD ZJK = powerplayers

ML can do everything well and it does not matter in the end if he doesnt have the same power close to the table like the other two. Footwork wise, sidestepping is more effective in the 40mm era and after so ZJK FZD have an edge when the rally is about power play, in the end ML managed to beat both of them because of his versatility and constant problem solving ability. ZJK himself described him as a deep thinker both as a compliment and as a "negative" attribute especially when ML thinks/worries too much about the game.

In the end you cant compare different attributes, they are just different. ML does not have the banana flick as a main weapon,nor the versatility with it that WH or ZJK have showed in the receiving aspect of the game

I think people are overanalyzing too much, the wttc 2017 was eventually a nerve battle after everything else has been put to the game and it boiled down to 3-3 10-10. FZD missed 2 good chances @ 9-7 with his 2 serves, ML risked more in the end and it paid off, simple as that

It would be great to see an analysis from ttzoom about how many rallies FZD won by pure power and ML by placement/traps and 3rd 4th ball attacks

True. At WTTC.

But then there was the next time they played.

Whether you call it old or new school, FZD sometimes becomes predictable, which doesn't matter against nearly anyone else. ML is the one guy who can deal with that BH onslaught. And he is never predictable. The more closely I study him the more amazing he sees to me.

Still FZD has probably not peaked yet. Like I said, there is more than one way to be great. That has been true in every era.

 

[ttmonster]

Carl, not sure why you are saying what you are saying but this is the definition of translational motion ... in case you thought that the word was offensive , point to note I did not get personal with rain like the way he started saying I don't want to argue with somebody who does not know high school physics or whatever ... I was just trying to reason ... that gravity cannot create rotational motion and if he thinks the rotation of earth around the sun is only due to gravity then that is not correct in the current context ... but yes I don't want to continue the argument ...

I am glad you guys have agreed to disagree without continuing the debate.

I do think you guys are talking about two different things. And from a certain perspective, each of you has a point.

Let's just move on. But understand, you may not be hearing each other. No harm. But no more on the subject.

Thanks.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[TTFrenzy]

True. At WTTC.

But then there was tbe next time they played.

Whether you call it old or new school, FZD sometimes becomes predictable, which doesn't matter against nearly anyone else. ML is the one guy who can deal with that BH onslaught. And he is never predictable.

Indeed, FZD too impatient in so many points, I noticed that in the 5th and 6th he slowly build up his initiative and pressure and then when the time was right he attacked hard and finisht the point, in the previous games even when he had a serious "advantage in the rally" he messed up his shot by overpowering it, just like ZJK .

p.s. im not saying FZD could have won, it does not matter, nor that he is better, he clearly needs some improvement in creativity and decision making

p.s. 2 I think the japan final was a more accurate depiction of how much smarter ML is, his performance in the wttc was not top notch as weird as it may sound (it seems to me that FZD also played his normal level but ML seemed lighter on his feet), the rio final along with japan open 2017 and world cup 2015 are definitely worth watching, absolutely no room to breathe for the opponent

 

[ping fun]

You always seem to take only specific factors into consideration to prove a point. Now I wonder why that happens. Before you start with the pro tour drama h2h . Now I dont consider pro tours important I have explained why, but since it suits ML fans so much its fine by me. But you seem to constantly forget that ZJK was 2008 09 chinese champion ( I guess that's important only when ML wins it) and he took that title 2 times before ma long even reached the final



ZJK also won 4-5 times against ML in final stages of trials, but I guess you forget about that too! And that 4-0 (world cup, trials finals, and 2 superleague matches) head to head, with ZJK injured does not matter also I guess

...just to give you a taste of your own medicine

p.s. I didnt see any valid comparison about how ZJK was excluded from the CNT (while ma long was training for a long time with the best and ZJK with provincial) and denied an opportunity in 2009, are you so sure that ZJK couldnt smack everyone back then? Because sometimes people are too sure about ML winning OG 2012. Just to flip the coin and see things from the other side. I guess its all ZJK fault isnt it...?????? Well same thing could be said about ML for all his "unexpected" losses. So ther eyou go, you have ur explanation.

p.s. 2 You can talk about statistics all you want and is fine by me, but no one has ever b****slapped another player with statistics like ZJK did and I dont mean against ML only

good point of view but unfortunately we cant discuss with rain cause he knows and understands everything better than others . but i'm not sure he can distinguish one spin from another . its interesting that his discussion comes to zjk most of the time and concludes with questioning his skills . not a good job . you are turning to acid rain ....... .

 

[ttmonster]

guys I don't want to create trouble and hijack the whole thread into a conversation back and forth with rain , I have already said what I wanted to say , unfortunately it got misconstrued ... lets not get into personal attacks ... when they go low , you go high , unfortunately somebody lost an election with that strategy .. but thats okay, this is not an election

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Guys, I have deleted a bunch of posts.

NO MORE ARGUMENTS THAT CONCERN ML vs ZJK.

End of story.

Thank you Monster for being an adult and stepping away from the arguments.

Rain, TTFrenzy NO MORE.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

FRENZY, NO MORE!!!


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[UpSideDownCarl]

I am impartial to the arguments. I don't care who is right and who is wrong.

No more discussion about ML v ZJK in this thread.

At least not from RainRiver and TTFrenzy.

No more personal attacks. No more personal arguments.

The subject of the thread is: Does Ma Long Have an Old School Style.


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[Baal]

Take a look at the match analysis between FZD and ML. FZD took the initiative five times more than ML. Most of these were BH flicks. ML performed only 5 BH flicks, FZD 75. This is the main point why you see ML more old school.
I counted the BH flicks, topspins and blocks (lucky winners aren't there): ML had 79% success, FZD 71%. This means ML has a good backhand, there difference is in the number of BH flicks. Both of them performed 76 BH topspins and ML made 9 more BH block than FZD. But we have to take into consideration that against FZD's vicious loops blocking is more effective than countertopspin.

This is a great analysis. There is nothing like numbers. ML is really good at using his opponent's power on his BH side and he can do Zhang Yining-style blocks of extremely angles shots to his BH and remain in position. He has insanely good touch on his BH and FH pushes/drops/returns. His BH has more power than WLQ or KLH. He is also very balanced as a player. As best as I can tell, he has never had any weakness technically. During the last few years when he is dominating, he almost never gives away easy points. He had to learn to win the biggest matches and somehow he got past whatever is holding him back mentally, which to my way of thinking is one of the most amazing things about him. Not too many years ago, that was the big critique of him.

FZD, at least by comparison to ML, has a particularly obvious "super power", which is an insane BH flick and close to the table attack. He is a stocky guy with short arms and legs, so that suits him. So if you know this is coming, you are going to play him a certain way. Not even ZJK in his prime could flick his BH with the kind of power that FZD generates. I can see why some would call that a "new school" but, if we are going to call it that, people also have to acknowledge that it is not yet sufficient to consistently beat "old school" Ma Long. Of course, players get old and get hurt and always decline eventually. I don't think the decline of WLQ was due to anything else. I think this is even more true for ZJK, who has had injuries and frankly (after winning his Grand Slam in record time) no reason to maintain his motivation when he can be on reality TV and date movie stars and make a ton of money.

In my view, each of these three players in their own way has taken the game to an entirely new level, and like I said, we have probably not seen FZD at his peak yet. He is still hungry.

But I would say some of the comments in which people have already dismissed Ma Long as some sort of obsolete throwback have to be judged in light of the fact that Ma Long has still been ranked #1 in the world for 59 months, including the last 30 months, and some of his few losses in the last two years have been when he has had to deal with a wrist injury.