Does Ma Long have an old school style?

[iamme]

For me ma long is just a good strategist.
FZD says "I will go, flick, then keep on looping super hard until I destroy you".
ML says "I will push and push short, when you flick I crush that ball and the point is mine".

 

[Dominikk85]

Do you think that push returns will die and players will go like 90% flick or topspin in the future and push is just an emergency or do you think it will remain a mix?

 

[NextLevel]

Do you think that push returns will die and players will go like 90% flick or topspin in the future and push is just an emergency or do you think it will remain a mix?

Variation in serve return is a must for any advanced player. If you do anything the same way all the time, it makes advanced players faster and faster. In fact, FZD's coaches have worked hard on getting him to improve his short pushes.

 

[ttmonster]

Yes , I remember that match where Fang Bo gave him a lot of trouble with the forehand short push ... we could see right after that he started working on this weakness with his coaches , later on the same tactic against him was not paying as much dividends ...

Variation in serve return is a must for any advanced player. If you do anything the same way all the time, it makes advanced players faster and faster. In fact, FZD's coaches have worked hard on getting him to improve his short pushes.

 

[Baal]

Do you think that push returns will die and players will go like 90% flick or topspin in the future and push is just an emergency or do you think it will remain a mix?

Not a chance that touch serve returns will die out as a standard part of the elite game.

 

[ajtatosmano2]

Do you think that push returns will die and players will go like 90% flick or topspin in the future and push is just an emergency or do you think it will remain a mix?

Remember Harimoto vs Lundquist, the first big win of the kid. He used long BH pushes. Pro players rarely do this, unless they see a good spot or when the opponent is out of balance. So this return was totally a surprise for Jens and let Harimoto prepare the winning shot.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Do you think that push returns will die and players will go like 90% flick or topspin in the future and push is just an emergency or do you think it will remain a mix?

Excellent post. See how many people responded to it.

I think, at some point, other people are going to see what ML is doing so that he can use FZD's flips as his third ball to crush.

Then it will be even more important to have a good push. Even for FZD.

So, what everyone else said. [emoji2]


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[Suga D]

Do you think that push returns will die and players will go like 90% flick or topspin in the future and push is just an emergency or do you think it will remain a mix?

Martin Adomeit once wrote on mytischtennis.de that many players nowadays are trying to BH-flip on any chance, even on balls that are not ideal to flip.

So the result of this is that some bh-flips are what some people would call half-azz and aren't really threatening the opponent and also aren't preparing the finishing point, opposed to what they were actually intended for.

Adomeit further wrote that a well placed sharp push to the corners can cause way more trouble to an opponent than a half-azzed flip to the middle of the table.

Now you can go and think that this kind of strategy is old-skool, [i would rather call it efficient and effective] but Martin Adomeit ain't no joke. He's been National coach of a few countries, the latest was Nigeria and also has been coaching Aruna for a while. So i think he should know quite well what modern tabletennis is supposed to look like.

So, to answer your question: i think as long as players keep using their brains this will NEVER die out.

[Emoji2]

Just my 2 ¢

 

[TTFrenzy]

Martin Adomeit once wrote on mytischtennis.de that many players nowadays are trying to BH-flip on any chance, even on balls that are not ideal to flip.

So the result of this is that some bh-flips are what some people would call half-azz and aren't really threatening the opponent and also aren't preparing the finishing point, opposed to what they were actually intended for.

Adomeit further wrote that a well placed sharp push to the corners can cause way more trouble to an opponent than a half-azzed flip to the middle of the table.

Now you can go and think that this kind of strategy is old-skool, [i would rather call it efficient and effective] but Martin Adomeit ain't no joke. He's been National coach of a few countries, the latest was Nigeria and also has been coaching Aruna for a while. So i think he should know quite well what modern tabletennis is supposed to look like.

So, to answer your question: i think as long as players keep using their brains this will NEVER die out.

[Emoji2]

Just my 2 ¢

one can just look to what ML does to XX with long pushes to get an idea

 

[fais]

"he was quickest in the CNT to adapt to the plastic ball change" Funny that the Chinese news and Chinese TT forum in 2014 said just the opposite. ML was thought to be finished because of the plastic ball which spins less than celluloid ball. So did the ABS ball change early this year: less spins and in the favor of players with more power (FZD, LJK according to LGL and Wu Jingping said FZD adapted to ABS the best). ML was able to adapt to the new ball after some time and win, especially against the players who are supposed to be better with the new balls; which can be explained by his versatility and technical/tactical reservoir.

I do think that ML had an advantage over power players like FZD with the older ball, where as players like FZD do have an advantage over ML with the newer ball (that, or ML advantage has reduced). However, his switching gears to a more powerful blade definitely helped close that gap and level the playing field (I don't believe any of the viscaria players have switched to a blade faster than that!)

I don't consider the new ball insurmountable by players using all wood blades like XX and ML. I've stated here several times that switching to stronger gear is very critical, especially if the other dominant style players don't switch (from viscaria). I don't think you will lose the touch that all wood players like, I think you will find the same touch in a faster bat because the ball is heavier, and the change isn't going to be a change in style, merely shifting further down the spectrum to regain that what you originally had.

 

[Baal]

FZD is a power player and Ma Long is not??

I just can never agree with that.

I agree that composite blades are better with these balls, but then I think they were better for 40 mm too especiaaly without speed glue. With 38 mm ball and glue maybe not.

 

[NextLevel]

FZD is a power player and Ma Long is not??

I just can never agree with that.

In chess, there is this dichotomy of sorts between tacticians and strategists where tacticians supposedly calculate lots of variations and strategists simply get a gist of the contours of the position and don't calculate as hard. Of course, you see the strategists often win with spell binding tactics and the tacticians play positions of all kinds on feel as well. In the end, people are really talking more about subtle preferences than facts.

All CNT players use power. In fact, Timo Boll is a pretty powerful player. IT's on the relative scale that we can talk about Timo Boll being more spin oriented than Ma Long.

 

[Baal]

A good point but even allowing for fact we are talking about only elite players, I will never agree that Ma Long is not a power player. He is not unidimensional, but he hits his forehand as hard as anyone in history. His BH is also very very strong, but not as aggressive in the opening as FZD. But FZD is unique in the history of the sport in his ability to do that. Maybe Dima can rip his harder too, from a step back, but that is another very unique superhero power, as LGL noted..

 

[NextLevel]

A good point but even allowing for fact we are talking about only elite players, I will never agree that Ma Long is not a power player. He is not unidimensional, but he hits his forehand as hard as anyone in history. His BH is also very very strong, but not as aggressive in the opening as FZD. But FZD is unique in the history of the sport in his ability to do that. Maybe Dima can rip his harder too, from a step back, but that is another very unique superhero power, as LGL noted..

Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out how easy it is to define people by distinctions that can obscure the truth. FZD is likely the most powerful player on the planet and Ma Long is easily in the top 5 if not number 2, but by focusing on a distinction, a bizarre conclusion that ML is a finesse player results.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out how easy it is to define people by distinctions that can obscure the truth. FZD is likely the most powerful player on the planet and Ma Long is easily in the top 5 if not number 2, but by focusing on a distinction, a bizarre conclusion that ML is a finesse player results.

Hahahaha. This is great stuff from both Baal and NextLevel. And the biggest irony is that, in reality both FZD and ML are Power players and both FZD and ML are finesse players. Perhaps they are 1 and 2 in both categories. Skillz. Skills.. Skillzzzzzz.......

But ML has this amazing ability to counterloop and use his opponents power. Oh wait....FZD has this amazing ability to counterloop and use his opponents power.

Perhaps they are 1 and 2 at that too.

And their serves....oh no....I think I'll stop.


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[ttmonster]

IMO , FZD can generate or overpower with more spin and power and Ma Long borrows more power from the opponent. Obviously Ma Long has better touch over the table and hence does not need to use Banana Loop for receiving every serve , he can stand his ground in the short - short game better than FZD ... and even can go toe to toe with Xu Xin whose short game should be better than others because of his style ... having said that its also how he chooses to play , as in Ma Long has more options at his disposal , even though his backhand is definitely lacking power compared to FZD and ZJK ... also I feel Ma Long has better defence away from the table ... may be second only to Xu Xin ...

Hahahaha. This is great stuff from both Baal and NextLevel. And the biggest irony is that, in reality both FZD and ML are Power players and both FZD and ML are finesse players. Perhaps they are 1 and 2 in both categories. Skillz. Skills.. Skillzzzzzz.......

But ML has this amazing ability to counterloop and use his opponents power. Oh wait....FZD has this amazing ability to counterloop and use his opponents power.

Perhaps they are 1 and 1 at that too.

And their serves....oh no....I think I'll stop.


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[Baal]

IMO , FZD can generate or overpower with more spin and power and Ma Long borrows more power from the opponent. Obviously Ma Long has better touch over the table and hence does not need to use Banana Loop for receiving every serve , he can stand his ground in the short - short game better than FZD ... and even can go toe to toe with Xu Xin whose short game should be better than others because of his style ... having said that its also how he chooses to play , as in Ma Long has more options at his disposal , even though his backhand is definitely lacking power compared to FZD and ZJK ... also I feel Ma Long has better defence away from the table ... may be second only to Xu Xin ...

FZD has more power from close in on the BH side maybe. Short arms help there. Not on the FH! Not on either side once they have to back up. As Carl says, tbey are 1 and 2 for a reason. I still insist that body shape is important in determining how you play and always has been. Persson and Waldner wsre different too.

ZJK and KLH both favored their BH from the grip. That is a bit of a tradeoff but it worked out really well for them. Their strokes wdre similar. A lot of KLH was in 38 mm era

 

[TTFrenzy]

In my eyes it still seem sthat FZD ZJK style rip the ball more whereas FB and ML although have a bigger motion in FH their stroke is more controllable and about accuracy. Its a distinctive difference which of course does not mean that ML and FB do not produce very good energy in their shots

 

[Zaid323918]

I do think that ML had an advantage over power players like FZD with the older ball, where as players like FZD do have an advantage over ML with the newer ball (that, or ML advantage has reduced). However, his switching gears to a more powerful blade definitely helped close that gap and level the playing field (I don't believe any of the viscaria players have switched to a blade faster than that!)

I don't consider the new ball insurmountable by players using all wood blades like XX and ML. I've stated here several times that switching to stronger gear is very critical, especially if the other dominant style players don't switch (from viscaria). I don't think you will lose the touch that all wood players like, I think you will find the same touch in a faster bat because the ball is heavier, and the change isn't going to be a change in style, merely shifting further down the spectrum to regain that what you originally had.

ML is using all-wood? I thought he was using W997 or W996 or Long 5. He is using one of those and those are all composite blades.

 

[NextLevel]

ML is using all-wood? I thought he was using W997 or W996 or Long 5. He is using one of those and those are all composite blades.

Thanks for pointing this out. The post I composed to address this never made it.